Manufacturers websites...

A little criticism here. As a couple who have been in the market for a new boat I feel a little bit "let down"...
This is the year 2016! We are contemplating spending a ton of money on a boat... Wouldn't you thing a manufacturer would do their best to get their product up to date and online?
I can pick on any manufacturer that we have considered too! Sabre, Nordic Tugs, and the boat we ultimately decided upon all have what I'd consider minimal web exposure. They are each and every one there, but...
Take Nordic Tugs for example. They have had their 40' tug on the drawing boards for more than a year now (we spoke to Cory in CT last year before the local trawler fest and he acknowledged its existence then!) and in fact they have delivered a number of the 40' hulls but the website has few pictures of the project! They use mostly pictures of the 39' and say "photos of the Nordic Tugs 40 will be available soon..." How difficult can it be to get some pictures up?

It is not just Nordic either. Sabre is building lots of boats and by all accounts very busy. Their website is better but still minimally informative, imho.

Wouldn't you think that a company would try to maximize the online presence of their product?

Curious...
Bruce

I think it's foolish not to take advantage of a good website. However, there is also the marketing principle of giving you just enough to get you to go to the dealership where you can be seduced, qualified, and sold. I'm not an impulse buyer, but a lot of boats are sold that way.

Ted

O C Diver said:

I think it's foolish not to take advantage of a good website. However, there is also the marketing principle of giving you just enough to get you to go to the dealership where you can be seduced, qualified, and sold. I'm not an impulse buyer, but a lot of boats are sold that way.

Ted

Click to expand...

We didn't exactly make our decision on impulse (not that you are accusing me of that)... I have been looking at trawlers for years now, mostly online...
We'd never have found the boat we decided on if I hadn't noticed one at out marina... The AT website did nothing at all to bring us to the table!
There has to be something wrong with that...
Bruce

I noticed that about the Krogen Express site. They only have one model, which runs about 1.6 million a pop, so you'd expect their site to be pretty sweet, but it really isn't. Same for Kadey Krogen. You get more pictures on yacht world.

"How difficult can it be to get some pictures up?"

Quite , When you sell your old bucket most any photo from a phone will do.

When a Mfg sells,, the same photos will probably be in mags and in a print brochure.

Huge difference in quality is required.

FF said:

"How difficult can it be to get some pictures up?"

Quite , When you sell your old bucket most any photo from a phone will do.

When a Mfg sells,, the same photos will probably be in mags and in a print brochure.

Huge difference in quality is required.

Click to expand...

I will respectfully disagree with this position.
The pictures of many of the boats on these sites are less than professional grade in the first place!
We aren't talking Onne van der Wal quality photos and I've seen his work up close as North Sails used him to photograph our last boat for one of their ad campaigns...its been in magazines.
I'm just talking about a basic web presence...where the boat you introduced a year ago has some actual real information about it on your web site. I'd be satisfied with even a Facebook presence of cellphone pictures...
Save the photo shoot for something big.
Bruce

I agree with you. I think you are seeing some combination of two things;

1) Poor attention to detail. Many boat builders (perhaps most trawler builders) are fundamentally small businesses and not "professionally" run. They don't understand the benefit and/or have the staff to make the web site a priority.

2) Tension with their sales channel. Sales people want leads - people they can dig their claws into to make a sale - any sale. Once they have made contact with you they will want to be your broker for whatever boat you buy regardless of brand. I've know many sales guys who hate having "too much" info available online. They want interested people to have to contact them so they can work their snake oil dance. I expect dealers pressure builders to put up just enough info to get the interested party to contact the dealer......

twistedtree said:

I agree with you. I think you are seeing some combination of two things;

1) Poor attention to detail. Many boat builders (perhaps most trawler builders) are fundamentally small businesses and not "professionally" run. They don't understand the benefit and/or have the staff to make the web site a priority.

2) Tension with their sales channel. Sales people want leads - people they can dig their claws into to make a sale - any sale. Once they have made contact with you they will want to be your broker for whatever boat you buy regardless of brand. I've know many sales guys who hate having "too much" info available online. They want interested people to have to contact them so they can work their snake oil dance. I expect dealers pressure builders to put up just enough info to get the interested party to contact the dealer......

Click to expand...

Wow...
I understand the first point. Web sites are a lot of work and they don't exactly contribute to the effort of getting the boat built and out the door in the short run. Maybe there are enough sales of boats and people waiting for product that the effort isn't necessary.

The second point... I'm not sure what to say about this. You may be correct but it is a depressing thought! I personally go out of my way to find answers without invoking the salesperson so clearly I've had similar musings.

I still believe that some more information with some brand building would be beneficial to most of the sites. We aren't talking about purchasing a drill on Amazon here, this is a big deal, expensive purchase.

Interesting...
Bruce

Advertising (which is what all websites are) is designed to initiate a response. Look at the Google AdSense ads on this website. Click on a few and unless it's an E-marketing enterprise the website will be similar, just enough information to send you seeking more if your truly interested.

You "might" sell a new Carolla online(highly doubtful) but you definitely are not selling a Ferrari without a salesman. Helmsman trawlers is the only manufacturer I'm aware of that posts base prices online. Most companies have a website because they feel it is expected of them, not because it actually sells anything.

CPseudonym said:

Advertising (which is what all websites are) is designed to initiate a response. Look at the Google AdSense ads on this website. Click on a few and unless it's an E-marketing enterprise the website will be similar, just enough information to send you seeking more if your truly interested.

You "might" sell a new Carolla online(highly doubtful) but you definitely are not selling a Ferrari without a salesman. Helmsman trawlers is the only manufacturer I'm aware of that posts base prices online. Most companies have a website because they feel it is expected of them, not because it actually sells anything.

Click to expand...

Have you shopped for a new boat lately? I have twice in my life and to suggest that an online presence is not important is beyond my understanding! Long before I speak to a salesman, I've begun researching my subject. When a company doesn't have a decent online presence, I begin searching forums...
That can't be controlled and in fact led us to look elsewhere in our current purchase.
I understand that a salesman closes a deal but you have to take advantage of the Internet before it takes advantage of you!
Bruce

Failure to build and maintain high quality websites is true for many businesses across all industries. For some, it's the cost they are fearful of, although it doesn't have to be that costly. For others, it's just they fail to see the importance.

My biggest criticism of web sites in general is keeping them up to date. I go to a web site and they have a "Latest News" page and the most current item is 2012. So, nothing has happened for 4 years?

On boat sites, lack of complete specifications, layouts, and photos are all annoying. The good sites have virtual tours. They are not that difficult or expensive now. I wish they'd show standard equipment and options available. Still specifications are my pet peeve. Why do fewer than 10% show air draft or bridge clearance? Even with European builders, CE Category is not shown on the vast majority.

We're of the online shopping generation. We research online. Our first chance to see the professionalism of a builder is through their web site.

Bruce B said:

Wow...
I understand the first point. Web sites are a lot of work and they don't exactly contribute to the effort of getting the boat built and out the door in the short run. Maybe there are enough sales of boats and people waiting for product that the effort isn't necessary.

The second point... I'm not sure what to say about this. You may be correct but it is a depressing thought! I personally go out of my way to find answers without invoking the salesperson so clearly I've had similar musings.

I still believe that some more information with some brand building would be beneficial to most of the sites. We aren't talking about purchasing a drill on Amazon here, this is a big deal, expensive purchase.

Interesting...
Bruce

Click to expand...

My point #2 is not meant to be an endorsement of that approach. It's just reporting the reality that I have seen in sales channels for large ticket items where a commissioned sales person is involved.

I agree with you 100% about the importance of a web site in selling products. The kinds of boats we are talking about will never be click-to-buy, but the whole process of educating a customer and getting them to fall in love with your product can be hugely facilitated by a good web presence. With all kinds of products in all price ranges, I very quickly lose interest when I can't get good info on a product, and focus my attention on products that I can learn more about.

Another selling angle is that many high-ticket items are life-style sales. You are selling someone on an image, fashion statement, or the like. It has nothing to do with boating. Those web sites typical show lots of happy people doing happy things and looking beautify while they do it. I always expect some of that, but when it's all I can get, I move on. A walk around the Ft Lauderdale Boat show will reveal quite a bit of that.

This weekend I was working on little things here and there and noticed one of the cabinet latches in the master cabin was broken. Southco, C3-803. Standing at the cabinet I placed the order for a replacement latch on my phone in about 90 seconds. I just do a little more than think of something and it can be in my mailbox in a couple days. Now of course shopping for a whole boat is a different exercise entirely, but still - it's a different world now and if any builder thinks poor websites don't hurt sales, they're insane.

(In contrast I need a cover for our dingy - a zodiac zoom 260. That took some significant surfing and time, got kind of annoying, but I'll go with the website that offers the clearest, easiest, most precise search and match to that model. Websites matter, little purchases or a whole boat, and I don't care if the buyer is 30 or 60 any more.)

Another boat website pet peeve. I strongly dislike the ones that require registration to get an online brochure. I don't want to register. I don't want to talk to a salesman or receive sales emails. I'm looking. Don't make it hard. If you force me to register, then not only does it annoy me, but it's going to cost you time and effort as the information will all be made up, the phone number wrong, and the email will go to an account I have set up just for that, one that I never read any emails to.

I want to look in peace. I want to have a chance to analyze and to digest what I see. I want to compare. The time will come that builders will even have the prices online. A very small number do today. They have base price and accessory prices. In the under 30' market that's become the norm. Those sites often have "build your boat" features. Sea Ray has it. Cobalt has it. It is so useful to get a chance to compare and also to look at all the options and decide if they're worth the price. If you want to see a site that I think is the way I'd like to see more then go to Cobalt Boats - Compromise Nothing. Here's a model specific link. Cobalt Boats - Our Boats - 336

You have photos, videos, specifications, a virtual tour, power choices, a list of standard equipment, optional equipment and "design your dream." Once in there I can compare 8 engine options and know the price difference between them. I can see the price of all options.

All customers like to work differently. There are many who prefer doing it all face to face with a builder's representative. But there are those like us who prefer to look online at our leisure with no sales person, and then when we're getting close perhaps contact with questions, but only deal directly with the builder when we're ready to buy. The builder with a poor website turns us off.

And one last thought to merchants. Don't assume people of certain ages aren't internet savvy. They're Amazon and Ebay shoppers. They order meals online. Where they can, they buy groceries online. Don't assume either that people spending large amounts of money on a new boat want face to face and don't want to waste time online. They're sitting in airports with their laptops. They're commuting by rail with their tablets. Their time is valuable and limited but that makes web even better as they can do that at their convenience. They may be traveling and in a hotel at night 2000 miles from home. They do a little work. Turn tv on. Then go online to look at boats. Websites work 24/7/365.

Cutting to the chase, websites may be best for tire kickers. Once a buyer for a new sizeable boat is serious, the boat is built on paper and cost then estimated. For those that have been through this process, the necessary details are very individualistic and don't lend themselves to a one size fits all sales website.

Bruce, when you queried about ATs a few weeks ago I was amazed at the online data, no shortage for my eyes of general sales and pictures stuff. Possibly for me it was easier as I've been through the AT factory and had a few details already in mind.

As several have correctly stated already, the builders are sending out teasers, whether at boat shows or online.

With today's technology, and with the relative low cost of that technology, there is no excuse for having an top flight website. As an example, KK does have a 360 degree virtual tour of the 58. It is pretty cool and does allow one to get a really good feel for the boat and its layout. They should have one for each of their models.

I understand the idea of a "teaser" or using the website just to personal info on potential leads, but, as several have noted, a $1M+ boat is generally not an impulse purchase. Most people buying in that, and higher, ranges, send a lot of time and effort on research and just online browsing. I would think companies, no matter their size, would want to take advantage of every opportunity to present their product in the most appealing and complete light possible.

In terms of cost, a website is a very small piece of a marketing budget. For a KK or Nord size company, a state of the art site, including photography and video costs, could probably be built from scratch for $100-150K. If properly designed, maintenance would be under $1k a month even using an outside vendor. A paltry amount when you are selling multi-million $$ boats.

THD said:

I understand the idea of a "teaser" or using the website just to personal info on potential leads, but, as several have noted, a $1M+ boat is generally not an impulse purchase. Most people buying in that, and higher, ranges, send a lot of time and effort on research and just online browsing. I would think companies, no matter their size, would want to take advantage of every opportunity to present their product in the most appealing and complete light possible.

Click to expand...

There are hundreds, even thousands, of boat brands. I think a good percentage of people use the internet to narrow their interest down to a manageable number of brands. My wife and I spent hundreds of hours learning everything we could through everything from Builder web sites to forums to search for litigation to YW to online review sites. For various purposes you start eliminating too by things like draft, galley in wrong location, wrong anchor (ok, that was not meant to be serious), appearance, range, speed. I'd then key information into a spreadsheet on which I listed all key numbers but also what we thought about each area and room of the boat. Very few websites had performance charts so most of those came from review and test sites. Range at cruise is nice or at a couple of speeds, but sure would help to know at all speeds what the fuel usage is. A couple of builders had no information on range at any speed. Air draft/bridge clearance was rare to find.

Our searches have always ended up very focused once we've done the research and much of that research online.

One last website comment. Web developers who don't test in all browsers and from different hardware. I've seen some all flash websites that if you tried to look at with an iPad, you had nothing to see. I was on a site the other day that using Chrome I could not get it to work. Had to switch to ME but many users would not have done that. And recognize that while loading might be easy on a desktop with 16 GB of memory, it might be something we'd give up on using a tablet or a phone.

sunchaser said:

Cutting to the chase, websites may be best for tire kickers. Once a buyer for a new sizeable boat is serious, the boat is built on paper and cost then estimated. For those that have been through this process, the necessary details are very individualistic and don't lend themselves to a one size fits all sales website.

Click to expand...

I think there is a lot to this. New boats aren't the same as used boats. A new boat can be configured almost however the new owner wants it to be. So for a manufacturer, a new model may simply not have a lot of photos of the various options and pricing is going to be all over the map.

FWIW, when I was first looking at buying my boat (not new obviously) I did check out the new North Pacific 45 (too bad a new boat wasn't a financial possibility). I found that the information provided was good, but to get pricing information I had to email NPY. Once I did that, I got the pricing for NW delivery and option pricing within a couple days.

dhays said:

I found that the information provided was good, but to get pricing information I had to email NPY. Once I did that, I got the pricing for NW delivery and option pricing within a couple days.

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If it was available to email to you, then it could have been on the site. The pricing is so key to the decisions. You would know that there were many changes that could impact it and also know there might be some negotiation. Many say they don't disclose because they don't want the competition to have it. The competition already has it. They got it just like you did. When I was in the Corporate world, I had the updated price lists of my competitors within less than a day of them announcing changes and they had the same from us. Salesmen share with other salesmen.

Have any of you been into furniture stores or antique stores or even art stores where nothing was priced? That makes me so uncomfortable as if it's take advantage of the customer day or a practice of giving different customers different prices.

I know to most people it's not an issue and it's not a major one to me. Just something that I'd prefer. Not something I must have. Good photos and virtual tours are must have.

Sabre does the virtual tour thing and I find it very helpful.
Bruce

twistedtree said:

I've know many sales guys who hate having "too much" info available online. They want interested people to have to contact them...

Click to expand...

I'm sure this is a big part of it, but it is an incredibly short-sighted and behind-the-times attitude. I have, in fact, heard boat brokers say that "serious buyers" want to talk on the phone, and come by in person, and not see all that much on the internet. WRONG!!! Not just wrong, but STUPID!!!

Especially in this day and age, most buyers--yes, even the most serious of buyers--want to use their time efficiently. That means narrowing down their decisions at their own convenience, in the comfort of their own home, on the internet. As time goes on, this is going to be more and more true. The under-thirty set already does most of their shopping via the internet. Heck! My 85-year-old father does a large percentage of his shopping on the internet these days.

No matter what business you are in, if you do not understand and fully utilize the capabilities of the internet, in the future you are going to LOSE! Companies that don't "get" this--and sadly, there are a lot of good companies out there that clearly do not--are going to be out of business in the very near future. And frankly, good riddance to them!

denverd0n said:

I'm sure this is a big part of it, but it is an incredibly short-sighted and behind-the-times attitude. I have, in fact, heard boat brokers say that "serious buyers" want to talk on the phone, and come by in person, and not see all that much on the internet. WRONG!!! Not just wrong, but STUPID!!!

Especially in this day and age, most buyers--yes, even the most serious of buyers--want to use their time efficiently. That means narrowing down their decisions at their own convenience, in the comfort of their own home, on the internet. As time goes on, this is going to be more and more true. The under-thirty set already does most of their shopping via the internet. Heck! My 85-year-old father does a large percentage of his shopping on the internet these days.

No matter what business you are in, if you do not understand and fully utilize the capabilities of the internet, in the future you are going to LOSE! Companies that don't "get" this--and sadly, there are a lot of good companies out there that clearly do not--are going to be out of business in the very near future. And frankly, good riddance to them!

Click to expand...

Think Borders. Yes, you remember them. They, as well as Barnes and Noble, said this online book thing Amazon had cooked up would never work. People wanted to walk through the racks and feel the books and flip the pages and then buy.

Now, online done well can reduce the number of tire kickers sales persons have to provide information to. It's much like qualifying the customer. They've looked online and now they want to talk. Far more likely to buy than the person who just called because they were curious and couldn't find the information online.

In retail, if I say I'm just looking and then someone continues to harass me as I try to do so, I leave. On the other hand, our policy is to always acknowledge the customer, ask if we can assist them, and then let them know they're free to look, but if they need any help just let us know. It increases their time shopping and increases their purchases. People like to shop at their own pace in their own way.

When it comes to boats, people love to window shop. But many then are serious potential buyers. It may be soon or years away. However, good web presence keeps them looking at you and your boats. I would say on average we've first contacted a live person a year to 18 months after first spending time on their web site.

Professionals like lawyers thought websites were beneath them. They learned that websites play a huge role in selection of lawyers. Even if one is personally referred, they go to a site to find out more before calling.

When customers visit your site, boat or otherwise, ask if they'd like to be added to your mailing list but don't force them. Make it known you'd love a chance to help them and where to call, but don't force them. Boats are not impulse purchases. The more they can learn from your site, the better off you are.

Times change. Victoria's Secret is discontinuing their catalog. The savings will be $150 million. They, much like Sears, were built through the catalog. The cost of printing and distributing fancy glossy multi page brochures to boat builders is considerable. The cost of letting someone access it online, very little by comparison. And, accessing online, it doesn't get thrown out accidentally or misplaced.

My wife and I looked at ours on line,good details,lots of pictures,
But, it didn't check this box or that box or even that one.

We got a terrific boat broker, he loved BOATS, being a broker allowed him to
spend his time with them.

On a trip to look at a couple of boats he asked if we had seen
Okisollo on the web page. Well yes,....But...
"If you have time would you like to look? She isn't what your'e looking
but..."
Of course, always look at boats, you never know where you'll find the
idea you needed for your project etc.(present or future).

Toured the vessel. This is beautiful. He says "Yes, but not what you want".
Agreed with him. He sat at the dinette with my wife, I re-explored end
to end. THIS IS A SHIP. He repeats ..".Not what... " etc Agreed

Two more trips......What can we change? What boxes can we dump?

We got the SHIP and are making the changes ...slowly..

Don't always trust just the web pages!!

Ted

Yep. You know that kind of derisive phrase "tire kickers" gets on my nerves. My wife and I kicked a lot of tires in our search, but then we pulled the trigger on big boats twice now over the span of just a few years. There's a guy named Jason at Watergate Marina in St. Paul, MN. He dug through the snow with a ladder for us so we could climb under the shrink wrap on probably a dozen boats, spent a lot of time with us. We ultimately didn't buy one there, but when we found THE ONE, we bought it. Jason, wherever you are, you have the right attitude, and someday I'd love to buy a boat from you and hope you get a nice fat commission -- but if not from me, then from somebody.

Sure, some shoppers will just waste time and for some the shopping is an exercise in itself, but even for those people, you never know when an annoying, time-wasting shopper is going to become a buyer.

kthoennes said:

Yep. You know that kind of derisive phrase "tire kickers" gets on my nerves. My wife and I kicked a lot of tires in our search, but then we pulled the trigger on big boats twice now over the span of just a few years. There's a guy named Jason at Watergate Marina in St. Paul, MN. He dug through the snow with a ladder for us so we could climb under the shrink wrap on probably a dozen boats, spent a lot of time with us. We ultimately didn't buy one there, but when we found THE ONE, we bought it. Jason, wherever you are, you have the right attitude, and someday I'd love to buy a boat from you and hope you get a nice fat commission -- but if not from me, then from somebody.

Sure, some shoppers will just waste time and for some the shopping is an exercise in itself, but even for those people, you never know when an annoying, time-wasting shopper is going to become a buyer.

Click to expand...

Can't ever guess who is going to become a buyer. The point was to say that the internet made a convenient way of looking at a lot up front. Then you go with the broker. But part of that process is reduced giving broker more time to assist when the time comes.

A website can answer a lot of minor questions one might have. It also allows the person who is a long time from purchasing a place to look, the person who thinks five years from now they might want a boat, but not sure if sail or trawler or speed.

All are potential customers but I shouldn't have to contact a salesman or broker to find out what the air draft is of a boat.

I do a lot of marketing and advertising work In the marine industry. My wife is the advertising director for Cruising Outpost magazine, and together we essentially act as an in-house advertising agency for many of the magazine's clients. I am continuously surprised that some fairly large and recognized national marine companies cannot afford to hire their own agency or graphic designers. I end up creating a lot of print ads for "free" for these companies. In some cases it's because they aren't very good at running a business (let alone marketing it) or their margins are so slim they literally can't afford to do what's needed. So many are still in survival mode.

Moonfish said:

I do a lot of marketing and advertising work In the marine industry. My wife is the advertising director for Cruising Outpost magazine...

Click to expand...

Thread drift: we love Cruising Outpost! Charter members of the rebirth a few years ago and I have the baseball cap to prove it. Funny, irreverent, not always perfectly proofread. One of our favorites. Met Bob at the Newport Boat Show.

twistedtree said:

They want interested people to have to contact them...

Click to expand...

Another key point in this that I forgot to mention before...

Note the phrasing: "They want interested people to HAVE TO contact them." Have to? They think that they can force a buyer to "have to" do what they want them to do?

WRONG!!! And, once again, not just wrong, but STUPID!!!

You cannot force the buyer to do anything. When you try to force them to deal with you on YOUR terms, they will just go to another seller who is willing to deal with them on THEIR terms. I mean, isn't that patently obvious? Completely self-evident? How can any business owner, or any sales person, be so stupid--in this day and age--as to think that they can force customers to do what they want them to do? And yet, there are a whole bunch of them out there who obviously are that stupid.

It really boggles the mind.

"In some cases it's because they aren't very good at running a business (let alone marketing it) or their margins are so slim they literally can't afford to do what's needed. So many are still in survival mode. "

Many of todays engine suppliers or noisemaker builders simply purchase the engine from its Mfg .

This causes price margins to stay slim as repair parts pricing can not be controlled by them.

BandB said:

When customers visit your site, boat or otherwise, ask if they'd like to be added to your mailing list but don't force them. Make it known you'd love a chance to help them and where to call, but don't force them.

Click to expand...

Which makes me think of yet one more stupid way that companies misuse the internet...

Websites where you are forced to register before you are allowed to find out anything about the products, the prices, the availability, anything. Really? How long do you think Sam Walton would have been in business if, when he opened his first Walmart, he had stopped customers at the door and forced them to "register" before he allowed them to come inside? I'll tell you how long. About a day!

Heck! Even with Sam's Club stores now, you can come in and look around before you decide whether or not to join!

Yet, for some incredibly idiotic reason, a whole lot of businesses think it makes sense to block potential customers from their websites until after they have registered. It just really is amazing how stupidly some companies misuse the internet. And, again, in the very near future, companies who do not use the internet intelligently are going to find it impossible to compete.

(Can you tell this is one of my pet peeves?)