Track Up or North Up?

nomadwilly wrote:I think course up is nuts...... I'm warn'in ya guys * * .... keep the chartsright side up.

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Total bunk!* This thread is about chart plotters and GPS! Hold your paper charts
any way you want but chart plotters are more easily understood when in the course
up mode.

You're straying too far from your "anchor trilogy" Eric!

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nomadwilly wrote:
I think course up is nuts. On any map or chart north is UP.

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I dont' go quite that far.* I think course-up makes a lot of sense in a lot of situations, one of which is if the boater (or pilot) finds it easier to visualize where the boat is and thus what direction to turn to alter course.* The GPS's many of us use in our cars, at least the stand-alone units like Garmins, display course-up or heading-up if you will, and that makes all sorts of sense for a lot of reasons.* For the same reason that the map displays in aircraft like those that John flies are oriented course up.

But interestingly enough, where some people here have said that they get a bit confused when their boat is heading in a southerly direction with a north up display because they're not immediately sure which way to turn the boat for a course correction, we experience the same "confusion" if we turn the chart around to a "head up" position of change the plotters to track up or course up orientation.* We are both so used to working with charts in the north-up orientation that anything other than that looks weird although I know we'd get used to it fairly quickly.* We experience no such weirdness on the GPS in the car or on the map displays when I get to fly one of our simulators around at work.

So I think it all boils down to what seems most intuitive to the individual.* With the exception I noted in my first post, we use north-up on the boat's plotters and we leave our paper charts in that orientation all the time because we like it, not because it's better.



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-- Edited by Marin on Saturday 26th of February 2011 02:04:40 PM

Marin wrote:We experience no such weirdness on the GPS in the car or on the map displays when I get to fly one of our simulators around at work.
Why would the using the same orientation on a boat be any different?

If your going south from San Diego to Cabo, don't you think it's a little weird to see the land mass on the right of your plotter screen?

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-- Edited by SeaHorse II on Saturday 26th of February 2011 02:21:42 PM

I think I'm now realizing that there is a difference in the way we look at paper charts and what we see on the screen of the chart plotter. If I hold a chart in the north up orientation and then look across the chart in the direction I am heading I see the same thing I would see if I were looking at a course up chart plotter.

I would never hold a chart with any other orientation then north up, it wouldn't make any sence. Like Nomadwilly, I'd get disoriented and possibly lost.

SeaHorse II wrote:


If your going south from San Diego to Cabo, don't you think it's a little weird to see the land mass on the right of your plotter screen?

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I don't see it that way at all.* North up puts me spatially correct, within MY visualization.* I'm a geologist and have been looking at (and creating) maps with North up for the last 40 years.* When cruising South from San Diego to Cabo I expect to see the land mass to the East!* Like Marin, it becomes personal and how we were taught and practiced, I suppose.

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-- Edited by SeaHorse II on Saturday 26th of February 2011 02:21:42 PM


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SeaHorse II wrote:

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Marin wrote:We experience no such weirdness on the GPS in the car or on the map displays when I get to fly one of our simulators around at work.
Why would the using the same orientation on a boat be any different?

If your going south from San Diego to Cabo, don't you think it's a little weird to see the land mass on the right of your plotter screen?

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"Weirdness" as I used it is relative to how we feel, not that I think it's weird whoever does it this way.

There's nothing weird in my opinion about the notion of running with the plotters in course or heading up.* We just prefer a north up orientation.* As I said, neither my wife nor I have any problems visualizing where our boat is relative to what's around us even if we are running the opposite direction.* For whatever reason, we don't need the orientation of what we see outside the window to match the orientation of the chart or the plotter display.* We "match" the orientation in our minds, I guess.* Whatever, neither one of has a problem matching the navaids, shoreline configurations, etc we see out the windows to the charts regardless of how the charts are oriented to the view out the window.* But if someone held a gun to our heads and said from now on you can only run your plotters in course-up, fine, no problem.

When we first started flying the Beaver up the Inside Passage into BC and SE Alaska I cut up a bunch of sectional charts into 11" x 14" rectangles with our course more or less up the middle and glued them to 11" x 14" pieces of heavy cardboard.* This was because we didn't want to be wrestling with folding and refolding a set of large sectionals as we progressed up the coast.* So I put the first "board" in my lap and when we reach the top of it I put it away and get the second board and keep going.* It takes eight of our "boards" to go from Seattle to Petersburg.

Going up the coast the charts on the boards are oriented more or less to what we see out the windscreen.* But when we fly home at the end of the trip, we don't turn the boards around.* We hold them the same way.* Partly because, unlike a plotter, when you turn a chart upside down all the text and numbers are upside down, too.* So working with north-up is just something we've gotten used to over many, many years.

So yes, if we were to run a boat down the west coast of Baja we'd have the plotters set to north up with the land on the right and the Pacific on the left.* And we would keep the paper chart at the helm oriented the same way.* And I don't think we would even consciously notice that the orientation was different to what we saw out the window unless someone asked us why we were doing it that way

So as I said, it's all just personal preference.* There is no right or wrong way to do it.

Marin wrote:But when we fly home at the end of the trip, we don't turn the boards around.* We hold them the same way.* Partly because, unlike a plotter, when you turn a chart upside down all the text and numbers are upside down, too.
This doesn't happen on a plotter. (at least on mine it doesn't)

Again, this thread started with a question relative to GPS (plotters)
Try and imagine flying a back course ILS with your GPS plotter reading "north up."

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Eric,
A bit like boats and lawn, right side up.Always.
Benn
PS Da Da Australian for radar. in some circles.

-- Edited by Tidahapah on Saturday 26th of February 2011 04:01:22 PM

Giggitoni wrote:I'm a geologist and have been looking at (and creating) maps with North up for the last 40 years. I have no argument with that! When cruising South from San Diego to Cabo I expect to see the land mass to the East! So do I and if my plotter is set to course up...it will be to the EAST! (In this case the left side of my screen agrees with what my eyes are telling me and is EAST!)
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All a plotter is, is a graphic depiction of what a camera (or a human) will see. I understand that most maps (not all) are created with a "north up" orientation but technology has now made it possible for us to orient our navaids (and read them..right side up) to the direction of travel. Isn't it logical to take advantage of this? I was taught to read maps with a north up orientation but I'm sure as hell not going to tell my wonderful plotter to read "north up" when I'm headed due south!

Jump on board with "course up" orientation....the train is leaving the station. (Do what you will with your paper maps.)

Please note that "course up" and "heading up" are not the same thing.

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SeaHorse II wrote:

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Marin wrote:But when we fly home at the end of the trip, we don't turn the boards around.* We hold them the same way.* Partly because, unlike a plotter, when you turn a chart upside down all the text and numbers are upside down, too.
This doesn't happen on a plotter. (at least on mine it doesn't)

Again, this thread started with a question relative to GPS (plotters)
Try and imagine flying a back course ILS with your GPS plotter reading "north up."

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Walt, read what I wrote again.* I said that unlike a plotter, when we turn our chart boards upside down the text and numbers are upside down, too.* Our three plotter displays maintain a right-side up orientation of the text regardless of whether the display is north up or course up.

Granted the discussion started with GPS plotters but we all do what we do for specific reasons.* In our case, and in the cases of some of the other posters, we run our plotters the way we do because we relate them to the way we use our charts.** I suppose one could answer the original question with a simple "north up" or "course up" and leave it at that but that doesn't tell the original poster why we do what we do, which was probably the reason behind the question in the first place.* So it's kind of hard to ignore paper charts in the answer if they are the reason why a boater sets up his plotters the way he does.

When flying on instruments of course it makes more sense to use a course up or heading up display.* The consequences of making an interpretive error are severe and can be instantaneous.* I've never flown a plane, be it a simple Top Cub, Cessna 206, or Caravan, to any of the Boeing simulators, where a north-up orientation on an HSI or moving map display was even an option.* (The Beaver I fly has no navigation system whatsoever other than the magnetic compass so paper charts are all there is.)

As I have said before, both my wife and I are perfectly at home with either mode on a chart display.* But we happen to prefer running the boat with the plotters in north-up.* In our vehicles we use course or heading up as I do in the planes or simulators I fly that have GPS chart or HSI displays.*

On the boat we will sometimes shift one of the plotter displays to course up when we are in low visibility and we want to orient the chart display as closely as possible to the radar display in a split-screen mode.

SeaHorse II wrote:
Jump on board with "course up" orientation....the train is leaving the station. (Do what you will with your paper maps.)

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Why?* Just because you prefer it and believe it to be the "proper" way to run a plotter, does that mean that everyone else has to assume all your reasons for doing something are the only valid reasons there are?*

I'm not trying to argue with you or put you down here, just to point out that people have their own reasons for doing what they do and the fact that you or I or anyone else doesn't agree with their reasons doesn't make them wrong.* I believe you have said you drive a Prius and you have good and logical reasons for doing so.* I go moose hunting in the logging regions of central BC.* So should I use a Prius for that instead of our Range Rover?* Should the reasons you choose to drive a Prius be applicable to my choice to drive a Range Rover?



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-- Edited by Marin on Saturday 26th of February 2011 04:47:49 PM

I must reiterate the most important point made here. USE THE ORIENTATION THAT IS THE MOST INTUITIVE OR PLEASING TO YOU. Nothing else matters. No one elses opinion matters.

Along with my first mate we have been following this North up* vs. Course Up descussion. I've always run North Up and my wife insist on running Course Up. After reading all of the comments I was very suprised as to how many people run course up! I've run up and down the Inside*Passage over ten thousand miles, but I've gotta be honest in saying that even running for long periods of time North Up on the plotter when heading south I always have to think about which way to turn the wheel. In poor weather, close quarters, night time and fog*I do prefer to run course up so that my plotter view and the radar view are both course up.*
Rob Hays
"Lady Anne" W40PH
La Conner, WA/Girdwood, AK

Rob wrote:

Along with my first mate we have been following this North up* vs. Course Up descussion. I've always run North Up and my wife insist on running Course Up. After reading all of the comments I was very suprised as to how many people run course up! I've run up and down the Inside*Passage over ten thousand miles, but I've gotta be honest in saying that even running for long periods of time North Up on the plotter when heading south I always have to think

about which way to turn the wheel. In poor weather, close quarters, night time and fog*I do prefer to run course up so that my plotter view and the radar view are both course up.*
Rob Hays
"Lady Anne" W40PH
La Conner, WA/Girdwood, AK

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Your own view out the windshield is course up as well. I'm just sayin!!!

Carey wrote:Your own view out the windshield is course up as well. I'm just sayin!!!

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I*grew up with north-up paper charts, then unstabilized course-up radar displays, then stabilized north-up true-motion radar displays.*

When my wife comes to the pilothouse, the paper chart gets rotated to heading mode, but she doesn't have any issues with the radar mode.

But the other day, she asked if we were planning to go upsound (as in Puget Sound), and I told her, No, we were going to go south.* Wait a minute!* Don't you have to be going north to go up?**

We pretty much leave looking out the window as the primary answer to all no-good-answer questions.*

Depends on how your brain is wired. Some can do North up, no matter what direction you are facing,. Some need to be Course up to relate to the chart at all. That difference exists between my wife and me. No matter, so long as whomever is actually steering can read the chart!

Benn,
How do you get radar out of Da Da?
But then that's baby talk for daddy**** .......in some circles.
Bottom side up is only good w bottles.
By the way why do people look at the lid?

Eric,
I don't for the life of me know how it came about. Da Da that is.
As usual I will be lookin with my eyes closed, I hope !!

Benn

Carey wrote:

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Your own view out the windshield is course up as well. I'm just sayin!!!

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Carey, I don't mean to split hairs but the view out the windshield is HEADING up....jus sayin'.

And like everybody else said....whatever makes you most comfortable. *I do think it is interesting that most of you "North UPpers" go course up when things get tense.


And Marin, there actually is a North up mode on the displays. *It is the "Plan" mode but it doesn't move with the airplanes motion(at least I don't think....I have never left it on long enough to find out....to freaky). *It is simply for planning purposes....just like a chart.

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North-up on plotter, course-up on radar.

Rob wrote:
.....but I've gotta be honest in saying that even running for long periods of time North Up on the plotter when heading south I always have to think

about which way to turn the wheel. In poor weather, close quarters, night time and fog*I do prefer to run course up so that my plotter view and the radar view are both course up.

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Makes good sense to me & I'm out of here.*

We always use course up since it matches the radar and it's easier to identify the landmarks.

Baker wrote:Carey wrote
Your own view out the windshield is course up as well. I'm just sayin!!!

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Carey, I don't mean to split hairs but the view out the windshield is HEADING up....jus sayin'.



John, You are so right. Marin and I were saying just that last night. Although, if I am following my course to a tee, are course and heading not the same?*

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I think technically; Heading is the direction your bow is pointing, Course is the direction you intend to go, and Track is the direction you actually traveled (or think you traveled in the case of dead reckoning).

Garmin uses Track to define where you went and Route to define where you plan to go. I think for the purpose of this discussion Course, Heading or Track all apply to mean the opposite of North in the GPS display setting.

I've enjoyed all the comments. This is a great website and I'm glad I found you folks.

Coming in bit late, but for what it's worth, I use course or heading up, but quite happily refer to charts north up. That is because mentally the GPS is sort of like looking at what is out front of me like through the windscreen, but in relation to surrounding landmarks, and tells you where you are going NOW. Whereas when looking at the chart I am an eye in the sky, as it were, looking down on the boat, and taking in where we have come from, where we are heading, and where we are in relation to far off objects. In our main sailing area, we have many channels where it is almost like driving along with marker buoys like road signs, so course up just makes most sense. Way out in the ocean might be different, but if I had radar, even then I think I would go course up, but marking position and progress on a chart nearby as well.

"the view out the windshield is HEADING up"

True. And more correctly I'll say I use heading up on my gps. And on those times when I have a paper chart at the helm I orient the chart heading up as well.

Having north "up" is an arbitrary convention.* Whenever navigating in the real world on land I will orient the map so that north on the map coincides with north in the world.* That way the map coincides with the real world (e.g., if I'm looking sourth on the map, I'm looking south in the real world.)* Similarly, I want radar and plotter to be aligned with the boat's orientation.* That way, what I see is what I expect without mental gymnastics.

Carey wrote:

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Although, if I am following my course to a tee, are course and heading not the same?*

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If I understand the question, the answer would be not necessarily. *If there is a set or drift, then the answer to that question is "no". *Your heading will be different from your course.

And Jleonard, I would imagine you have heading input to your plotter if you use it in the "heading up" mode???...I am not sure how else you could display heading up without it.

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Well, I am north up when I go north. Otherwise course up, of course.

North uppers... if you could, would you orient you radar north up?

xfedex wrote:

Well, I am north up when I go north. Otherwise course up, of course.

North uppers... if you could, would you orient you radar north up?

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I could on my last boat, and no, not unlessI'm just playing with it. For collision avoidance, I want a clear picture of what's in front of me the same way I'd be seeing it out the hatch.

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