Laptops On Board

How are those of you who untilize laptops for chart plotting actually powering the laptop. By this I mean, are you using an invertor and the A/C power pack or are you using an automotive style power adapter?

I am about to provide the necessary installation set up for my older Toshiba laptop at the helm and am concerned about how warm the A/C power adapter gets after a couple of hours.

If you are using an automotive power cord do they run warm as well?

Thanks for any and all information and discussion on the topic.

John* MV Penta

Sidney, BC

I have a Mac and Toughbook on our boat, both run off a 12 volt adapters that plug into a lighter plug running of the ships 12 volt supply. Neither one gets warm let alone hot.

Inverter and 110v power pack. No problems.

Same here... inverter and 110v power. Works fine.

Penta wrote:
How are those of you who untilize laptops for chart plotting actually powering the laptop. By this I mean, are you using an invertor and the A/C power pack or are you using an automotive style power adapter?

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I use a MacBook on the boat and usually power it with a stand-alone automotive-type inverter plugged into a cigarette-lighter type receptacle.* I do this because I believe this consumes a bit less battery power than running the boat's inverter, which is a Heart Freedom 25.* However I have run the laptop via a 120 vac outlet on the boat and the Heart inverter with no problems.

I don't use the laptop for navigation, only writing.* Since the engine(s) will be running when you are navigating, battery drain over time will not be an issue.* So if it is more convenient (or less messy wires-wise) to plug your navigation laptop into a nearby AC outlet and power it with the boat's inverter I would be inclined go that route.

A very small inverter plugged into car adapter(cigarette lighter plug gizmo). Works fine...last long time!

We have been using a DC to DC converter, http://www.powerstream.com/dcdc.htm for years now and this is the most efficient way to power a laptop other than direct AC. I am not sure why you are concerned with the heat even with AC. Our brick gets warm but never hot. Chuck

*

I have a 12V 3-outlet power strip at the fwd counter with a small 200W (or so) inverter to provide the laptop with 110V. It works great with no heat buildup and no problems. I run an Acer netbook with 7 hr battery life so I can unplug for extended periods without consequence.

My only problem is that the counter collects so much clutter that eventually, I have trouble seeing the laptop!!* I guess I need a bigger boat.

FlyWright wrote:
My only problem is that the counter collects so much clutter that eventually, I have trouble seeing the laptop!!* I guess I need a bigger boat.

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*Might be a wee bit less expensive to buy a bigger laptop.......

I run my nav laptop off the big inverter. Its a Dell - they're known for hot power bricks but it hasn't set us on fire. Yet. (It doesn't seem to run excessively hot)

I'm trying to build a case with the Admiral here, Marin. Your logical solutions are just not helping. ;-)

BTW, I just ordered your book, Flying a Floatplane, today. After I read it, I'll be passing it along to my uncle who might be in the market for a Beaver on floats soon. I look forward to the learning from you.



-- Edited by FlyWright on Wednesday 5th of October 2011 08:32:10 PM

While this thread has to do with powering a laptop, the concern was expressed about the heat that some systems create.

Can't put my cursor on it right now, but a large yacht was lost to fire a couple of years ago in the Desolation Sound area that was blamed on a laptop charger.

Maybe someone can find the event?

Anyway, good laptop management should also include turning chargers/inverters off when batteries are full

FlyWright wrote:
I'm trying to build a case with the Admiral here, Marin. Your logical solutions are just not helping. ;-)

BTW, I just ordered your book, Flying a Floatplane, today. After I read it, I'll be passing it along to my uncle who might be in the market for a Beaver on floats soon. I look forward to the learning from you.

Click to expand...

*Sorry.* If you buy a larger PC laptop you will go through months of agony trying to overcome all the quirks and errors in the Microsoft Kids' latest attempt at an operating system.* Your new laptop will not be compatible with any of the normal navigation applications, forcing you to purchase a wide variety of new,* very expensive software.* This plus the unreliability of just about anything made by Microsoft these days pretty much guarantees that your new laptop will lock up just as you are starting to negotiate a tricky bit of water, and you'll go aground incurring a lot of damage and a massive repair bill.

The far better route, it is now obvious, is to retain your tried and true current laptop which will not put you on the rocks and solve the clutter and ensuing visual clutter problem by acquiring a larger boat so the clutter can be properly stowed.* Given the agony, uncertainty, and expense a new laptop will force upon you, a new boat is by far the less expensive option.* Just don't buy an Apple or this entire train of*logic goes right out the window.

I'm surprised there are still copies of "Flying A Floatplane" around.* Unless you bought a used one.* The first edition came out in 1985 (I think), the second edition (my favorite) came out in 1990 (I think) and the third edition came out some five years later.* McGraw Hill took it out of print sometime in the early 2000s because they kept jacking the price up until they overpriced it for the market.

My later book, "Success on the Step: Flying with Kenmore Air," came out several years ago and continues to be available.* It's the story of Kenmore Air (Harbor), the most successful seaplane company in the world.* Regardless of who wrote it, it's a great story about a remarkable and unique company.* It's as much a business success story as an aviation story.

Maybe the best solution then, instead of buying a bigger boat to house the equipment, (although I'm sure Marin was talking tongue in cheek there), is just to buy a new or near new purpose built GPS unit designed for the job. Although costing more than a domestic solution, they are designed for the marine environment, and are fairly bullet proof, and they are securely mounted. You actually don't need a huge screen. I get by with a 5 inch Lowrance perfectly well, and it does everything its bigger brothers do.* I don't fancy seeing my MacBook flung across the pilot-house, I love it too much.


-- Edited by Peter B on Thursday 6th of October 2011 04:59:29 AM

Peter B wrote:
Maybe the best solution then, is just to buy a new or near new purpose built GPS unit designed for the job.

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* * * * That would be and has been my choice. I'll probably catch some heat for this next statement but I think using a laptop for just about everything onboard is much like a Swiss Army knife. Looks great, has a lot of different uses, is small but when one needs to depend on it for a life or death task, it falls short. A stand alone plotter or even a good combo unit will pay back in spades. Coupled to your AP, you can have your mate man the helm while you are down below with a hot cup of coffee, sending & receiving your e-mails on the laptop.

SeaHorse II wrote:*I'll probably catch some heat for this next statement but I think using a laptop for just about everything onboard is much like a Swiss Army knife.

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Not from me, you won't. Dedicated chart plotters are computers, too, obviously.* But they're built to do one thing--- plot and follow your course.* Layering a plotter application on top of an operating system--- and in the case of PCs a really crappy operating system--- seems to me to simpy double the chances of a failure.* I recall reading on T&T the woes of laptop-based navigators who bemoaned things like having to search forever in multiple layers of menus just to find out how to increase or decrease the brightness of a plotter applicaion display or how to change the size of on-screen icons.* Or having the computer lock up and having to reboot the system.* And, of course, this always occurred at the worst possible moment.

I work constantly with very complex applications layered on top of an operating system when I'm editing and doing effects.* While the applications we use are the standard of the industry and well-proven, they still freeze, lock up, or "has quit unexpectedly" on a frequent enough basis to be annoying. Most of the problems (our engineer tells me) are issues with the operating system, not the applications themselves.

So no way am I going to open myself to the same potential for problems with the navigation systems on our boat.* In the 13 years we've had our boat we have never experienced a single failure, lockup, reboot, you name it, with our dedicated C-Map plotters.

Most of the problems (our engineer tells me) are issues with the operating system, not the applications themselves.

_____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

I'd say your engineer is covering up his poor coding techniques and incompetence by blaming the operating system. The computer I am typing this on is a one year old DELL running Windows 7 and is rock solid. I turn it on in the morning and turn it off when I go to bed. In the one year I have owned it, I don't recall even one instance where I had to reboot. Maybe you are still using Windows 95 Marin, as is your engineer.
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On my boat, I am running Vista with Coastal Explorer (CE) and I have similar reliability. I use CE for route planning because it is so much easier to use than my Furuno NavNet VX2. Going though multiple layers of menus more accurately describes the Furuno VX2 than CE. The computer on the boat is used as a stand alone backup system with its own GPS. It saved my bacon on one of my trips when we went through a particularly complicated pass named Venn Passage leaving Prince Rupert, BC bound for Ketchikan. The Furuno chart I was relying on just went into a cross hatch like it does when on an unsupported scale. Nothing I did could get the chart to come back so thank god the computer running CE was right there.
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My experience. New computers running the newest Microsoft operating systems are so much more reliably than those in the past there really is no comparison.
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Ron


-- Edited by windmist on Thursday 6th of October 2011 11:40:47 AM

Many of us use our laptops as a backup to our smaller chartplotters and a larger display alternative to our older eyes. I also like the 3D bottom contours my Maptech software provides. My Garmin 276C is always running at whichever helm I'm manning but it's a small screen. I also have another Garmin GPS that feeds another laptop, but I rarely use that and just keep it available as a spare. (I'm very fond of redundancy!)

My Windows 7 Dell running Nobeltec is on its 5th trouble free season* Ron, my Furuno NN3 picks up Venn passage OK on 2010 loaded in Canada*charts. I've updated to 2011 using US loaded charts - it will be interesting to see if any Furuno hiccups appear going to Alaska next year.

I also have an older*Raymarine plotter (70/80 series) using NT chips. It is a real dinosaur unit as compared to*laptop based Nobeltec programs. I've used IPad charts and they are OK, but without a mouse and keyboard it is not as good as a laptop when it comes to laying out the next day's trip.

windmist wrote:
Most of the problems (our engineer tells me) are issues with the operating system, not the applications themselves.

_____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

I'd say your engineer is covering up his poor coding techniques and incompetence by blaming the operating system.


-

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Our engineer is a maintenance engineer.* He's not a computer programer.* His job is to keep things running.* The applications we are running cost some $20k-$30k and they are the standard of the industry.* They were originally designed for Macs and on those computers they are trouble-free.* But industry pressures forced them to develop versions for MS operating systems and that''s when the problems began.

We used to use Macs but my employer in its infinite wisdom decided to standardize on PCs across the company for all non-design functions (by design I mean airplane and tooling design).* It's been a giant headache ever since.* Microsoft, which started out making pretty good applications, has long since lost that ability.* And their operating systems are absolute rubbish these days in terms of reliability.* A Microsoft operating system is probably the single, most universally hated thing at my company today.

When our edit system crashes it's not the end of the world.* You shut everything down, power it back up, and restart the computers.* You lose fifteen minutes of your life but that's all.* But on my boat there is no way in hell that I'm going to layer a critical function like navigation on top of the garbage that Microsoft puts out these days.

I just have to smile.

If your maintenance engineer had no hand in developing this application then I repeat - he doesn't really have the expertise to make the determination of where the problem lies.* It sounds to me that the people in your department just need to bitch rather than solve the problem.

Microsoft, which started out making pretty good applications, has long since lost that ability. And their operating systems are absolute rubbish these days in terms of reliability. A Microsoft operating system is probably the single, most universally hated thing at my company today.

This is just your opinion and based on the people around you who spend most of their time bitching.* I know all about Boeing having lived in Seattle all my life.* I worked there until I found a real job and my wife retired from Boeing.* I heard a lot of stories about Boeing employees.* So unless you have some facts to back up your inflammatory statement above, I suggust you keep it to yourself.

Ron

*

windmist wrote:
So unless you have some facts to back up your inflammatory statement above, I suggust you keep it to yourself.

*

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I think the fact that Microsoft coders are known the world over as the laziest coders on the planet says something about the quality of their work these days.* They are too lazy to clean unused code out of applications as they "improve them," and so just write around the old code.* Eventually, there is so much old code in their applications that*a) the applications become many times bigger in size than they need to be and b)*errors inevitably appear as more and more instances occur where the old code is not thoroughly isolated.*

This isn't my opinion--- I don't work in the computer industry.** This is stuff I've read all over the place written by people who DO work in the computer industry.

If it wasn't for the fact that so many computers around the world are stuck having to run MS operating systems and applications, the consensus of these*analysts*seems to be the company wouldn't be getting all that much business today.

As to your "knowing" Boeing employees, your comments make it clear that you don't.* We do have losers for sure---*perhaps you were one of them?--- but every company does.* But if you spend time with the folks who are designing and building the planes it doesn't take long to realize that they are tops in their field.* The fact you think so little of them says a lot more about you than it does about them.

We're getting a long way away from the topic but for me a piece of software running on an operating system that sells millions of copies annually is a far better bet than a single purpose system where the code can't be upgraded or improved and where the total market is in the thousands.* I can't imagine why anyone buys purpose built chartplotters anymore.* On our boat if one laptop plotter fails we have two more standing by ready to go to work and for a nominal investment we have huge screen area available for navigation.* So far the backup laptops*haven't been required.* And we're all keeping up our plots on paper anyway - right?* So the catastrophic result of losing a laptop (or a dedicated chartplotter - don't ever pretend they don't fail too) would just mean sharpening the pencil a bit more.

We do have losers for sure--- perhaps you were one of them?---* Nice Marin

No question that Boeing builds the best airplanes in the world but I wonder how much better and even cheaper they would be if not for all the dead weight the company has to carry. My wife, who was a production planner on the AWACS program, would come home in tears some days over the difficultly in trying to get shop workers and even engineers to do their job.* Maybe this attitude is typical of all strong union shops where you have little chance of losing your job for lack of caring.*I left the company in part, because of working with people who did as little as possible and no, I wasn't a loser. They tried hard to keep me as they do with all their employees who do their job.

In any case, I could care less that one of your many inflexible opinions is that you hate Microsoft. My intent in responding to your post is to counteract your inaccurate and biased statements.* Disclaimer:* I retired from Microsoft and know how much time and effort they put into creating the best product possible.

I notice that 6 of your posts today where on company time but of course, maybe you had the day off.

Ron

bobofthenorth wrote:
We're getting a long way away from the topic but for me a piece of software running on an operating system that sells millions of copies annually is a far better bet than a single purpose system where the code can't be upgraded or improved and where the total market is in the thousands. *

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We use hundreds of Microsoft based PC's and Laptops in our company and for the most part they are very dependable and trouble free.* Someone mentioned the applications software being a problem.* That's our experience too; they are often poorly developed and tested, as the companies rush them into the market place to beat the competion.* We spend millions of dollars on equipment and software and we end up beta testing their application software for them, (these are very large software development companies) and they keep madly adding new patches and software upgrades trying to fix their programing errors. Yeah they like to point fingers at Microsoft too, but invariably in the final wash, its an application programing error that caused the problem.
*
I like the laptop applications for the boat as well.* If they could come up with better LED screens that would be a plus.* In an intense water light*reflected*environment, it is very difficult to clearly see laptop screens at the helm.* Consequently, my Garmin plotter will remain my main navigation tool for the present.
Larry B
*


-- Edited by Edelweiss on Thursday 6th of October 2011 08:40:32 PM

windmist wrote:
*1. Maybe this attitude is typical of all strong union shops where you have little chance of losing your job for lack of caring.*

2. Disclaimer:* I retired from Microsoft and know how much time and effort they put into creating the best product possible.

I notice that 6 of your posts today where on company time but of course, maybe you had the day off.

Ron

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1. This should really be on OTDE, but no question the union mentality can hinder productivity.* I'm no fan of unions even though-- or perhaps because--- I've been in one and been on strike.* I don't like organizations that are geared toward preserving the lowest common denominator.* The good news is there are solutions.* One of them is Charleston. Another is China.

2.* I'm thinking you should have stayed.* Judging by what they've been putting out lately they could use your help.

3.* When I'm editing, I work from 11:00pm to 7:00am although in reality they often start at about 9:00 pm and go to about 9:00am.


-- Edited by Marin on Thursday 6th of October 2011 08:48:09 PM

Can't relate to this. Don't you guys get enough computer work and play at home? Why would anyone want a computer on board *...unless they prefer them to Chart Plotters. Ditto television. When I go on my boat I'm glad to leave this computer at home. This reminds me of kids constantly play'in w their cell phones.*

Just returning to the initial thread, we have used a variety of laptops for years with small inverters plugged into a lighter socket - no problem. However, several people mentioned the loss of the Daigan in Grace Harbour (Desolation Sound) a few years ago due to a laptop overheating and catching fire. It is my understanding that the owner was ashore when the fire started. One thing to avoid is leaving laptops or the associated brick on or under a cushion, where considerable heat can accumulate. I have noticed this at home, leaving a charging laptop on the coach for example. The heat danger has nothing to do with the inverter. Don't leave you laptop charging on any type of fabric/cushion at home or on the boat.

bobofthenorth wrote:
We're getting a long way away from the topic but for me a piece of software running on an operating system that sells millions of copies annually is a far better bet than a single purpose system where the code can't be upgraded or improved and where the total market is in the thousands.* I can't imagine why anyone buys purpose built chartplotters anymore.* On our boat if one laptop plotter fails we have two more standing by ready to go to work and for a nominal investment we have huge screen area available for navigation.* So far the backup laptops*haven't been required.* And we're all keeping up our plots on paper anyway - right?* So the catastrophic result of losing a laptop (or a dedicated chartplotter - don't ever pretend they don't fail too) would just mean sharpening the pencil a bit more.

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*Well, what works for you, Bob...but I'm still trying to get my head around the amount of space 3 laptops must take up, and the logistics of carting them around all the time, and time consumed setting them all up again, even if you take the risk of leaving one or two on board between outings.* Give me my mounted Lowrance, available at the flick of a switch, and back-up hand help Navman, (which has never been needed), any day.* I like simplicity....

Bob - No chart plotter you say, well mine have radar and sunlight viewing attached. I can't get that in a laptop.