New Member- MT 49 Survey a disaster. Any advice

My wife and I recently decided to semi retire and buy a boat and go cruising.

She did have a list of requirements:
Europa style
NO V berth for master
Must have a full queen bed, that is accessible from both sides.
Must have a homely traditional feel
MUST be safe for young grand babies.

I figured this was easy until the search started, after viewing possibly every boat for sale in the WORLD lol, we decided to get serious on a MT 49 Pilot House in Hamilton,Canada. We are in Florida so this is even crazier, but this is what she wanted.

We went back and forth with an offer as I felt the boat was over priced initially. The broker had assured me that the boat was a BUC 7-8 condition. After flying up in the middle of winter, the boat was on the hard and shrink wrapped and looked ok, but not as great as pictures and broker described.

We went ahead with the survey on the hard and it was a train wreck. The Surveyor rated it as a BUC 5 in poor condition. He also felt the boat condition had been grossly misrepresented in the add. The list of repairs was so extensive, I could not find one company to insure the boat based on the survey.

The broker has told me the owner will make the repairs and we are about to do the mechanical survey and sea trials this week, so I have about 4k invested in the boat so far. The surveyor believes it will take an act of god for the owner to bring the boat to compliance.

All of a sudden I have seen a lot of boats that are of similar age, length and style(not exactly what she wants) for about 40-50% less than my offer. Unfortunately many are on the west coast so moving those to Florida are not an option. But with the survey a disaster, the boat so far away, the boat being over priced, I am not so certain any more.

I have not been able to find any other pilothouse for sale in our price range, We also would look at a Cheoy Lee twin deck or Sea Ranger etc, in the same size range. We just don't seem to be able to find anything else.

So our problem are
1. Cut our loses and walk away
2. Start looking all over again
3. Attempt to re negotiate with seller for a price reduction
4. Buy what she wants even over priced
5. Settle for something that does not check all boxes for her.

Any advise from seasoned owners would be helpful or even a lead on a potential replacement would be even better as a backup.

Brokers sell boats. That is how they make their money. A selling broker will usually say the boat is in better condition than it is. Your surveyor is working for you and gets paid the same regardless of whether you buy the boat or not. Trust him or her.


Personally, If I wanted to actually cruise, rather than messing around with repairs, I would look for a boat that needs few or no repairs. Yes, you may pay more but you get to do what you want to do, cruise on a boat.


So, I would walk away and start looking again. Your wife's opinion is important but only you know how important it is. "Over priced" is relative.

Shaunc said:

The broker has told me the owner will make the repairs and we are about to do the mechanical survey and sea trials this week, so I have about 4k invested in the boat so far. The surveyor believes it will take an act of god for the owner to bring the boat to compliance.

So our problem are
1. Cut our loses and walk away
2. Start looking all over again
3. Attempt to re negotiate with seller for a price reduction
4. Buy what she wants even over priced
5. Settle for something that does not check all boxes for her.

Any advise from seasoned owners would be helpful or even a lead on a potential replacement would be even better as a backup.

Click to expand...

Are you anticipating an act of god? I don't expect the mechanical survey to do any better. Trusting an owner to bring a boat into compliance is really a leap of faith I wouldn't advise. You might get an estimate of your own and then ask for a reduction equal to at least twice that estimate.

As to your points above.

1. Forget the $4k. It's spent. It no longer has anything to do with whether to purchase this boat or not. It doesn't change. It's an insurance policy you bought and it's paid off by keeping you from getting in trouble.
2. Often searches take longer than we expect.
3. Possible but understand will take far more than you expect and delay use far longer. Not a great way to start.
4. 5. Both are choices. Perhaps extend your purchase price slightly for the perfect boat. Also recognize that many listed prices are more than they'll actually require. Maybe your original price target wasn't realistic. But then also every boat is a compromise.

How much time have you and your wife spent on boats cruising? If not much, I'd charter and learn more about your likes and dislikes.

Why isn't moving a boat from the West Coast an option? It might be.

If you don't have a buyer's broker, get one. You could use someone on your side to help guide you. To show you some boats that might not meet your checklist exactly but based on experience he/she things might be a great compromise. If you need one, then I'll be glad to make a recommendation in private.

Thank the insurers for looking out for you. They did it for themselves, but when they won't insure, that's like when a bank won't finance, it's good advice for you.

We just purchased our loop boat and I never thought a boat would be as difficult to decide on. We'd purchased many boats with no trouble and quickly. But this boat took us 3 years and that's buying new and not restricting ourselves with a budget. It doesn't meet several of our initial requirements. Yet, we love it. It fits us better than what we started thinking.

You and your wife fell in love with a boat. Not really. In love with an ad. In love with a claim. In love with some photos and words. Not this boat. Not as it is today.

Looks like this is the boat:
1979 Marine Trader Salon Bridge Power Boat For Sale - www.yachtworld.com

Based on the exterior pictures alone, I can see how it caught your eye but once aboard, even from the pictures, it quickly becomes suspect and to me, a waste of time. I find it hard to understand your thinking. Ok, so you dropped 4 grand but...

Shaunc; said:

The surveyor believes it will take an act of god for the owner to bring the boat to compliance.

Click to expand...

...and you are undecided?

Start over.

I would run very fast in the opposite direction. Good luck.

The boat sounds like trouble. I would walk.

Surveyors are great, but keep in mind that they will not find everything wrong with the boat. If all the repairs are made that the surveyor identified, there will still be a bunch more stuff that you will have to deal with.

Put it this way, if an owner hasn't bothered to fix and maintain the really important stuff, how do you think they have maintained the little stuff? Small leaks that the surveyor would not see while shrink wrapped. Knobs, switches, latches that don't work. An outlet or fixture that doesn't work. All these things are items that will also tend to bug your wife and you will need to be fixing.

If the have been less than truthful and not maintained the big stuff, they won't be any better on the small stuff. Will you also trust the quality of the repairs that this seller makes?

You didn't say how much experience you have had. That makes a difference. You may want to reexamine the boxes, much less which ones are checked. We just bought a boat that didn't have a couple of our initial "must haves" and a couple "don't wants". The more we looked we found that we needed to reevaluate our initial requirement list not only for reason of cost and availability but because our list was made with a lack of experience.

I would look at the list you have and see which of those is limiting your boat choices. Then talk to owners who are using the boat as you would and are doing it in similar waters as you will.

Take a deep breath, step back and re-evaluate. If you don't have a broker working for you, get one, it's costs you little to nothing. It takes some time and energy to find the right boat. Making this one work just might cause more work down the road and the enjoyment your looking for will fade quickly.
Another boat will show up soon, be patient and when you find the right boat, you'll know it.
By the way, even a boat in very good condition will require some time and money to make her yours!
Enjoy the hunt and don't look back.

Hawgwash said:

Looks like this is the boat:
1979 Marine Trader Salon Bridge Power Boat For Sale - www.yachtworld.com

Based on the exterior pictures alone, I can see how it caught your eye but once aboard, even from the pictures, it quickly becomes suspect and to me, a waste of time. I find it hard to understand your thinking. Ok, so you dropped 4 grand but......and you are undecided?

Start over.

Click to expand...

If that's the boat, I have so many other questions but why you'd consider not walking now, can only be lust, not love for it. The condition from the pictures looks like everything in it has been wet. I was wondering part way through if it had been sunk. Then something really strange hit me. Why is it listed through a broker in Cleveland, Ohio? Obviously it's not a high value listing. If you were putting a boat for sale in Hamilton, Ontario, would you go to Cleveland for a broker. There are many in Hamilton. Has the broker ever seen the boat?

I would suggest you might be expecting more than is reasonable in a certain price range and might be better served by a little less boat, but newer. It's a 36 year old boat, with many issues.

What kinds of problems did the surveyor find?

Greetings,
Welcome aboard. Hmmm....You shouldn't consider your survey $$ as a loss, as such. It's more of spending $$ to save $$. That particular boat has had a LOT done to her. Looks like a complete rebuild of the starboard side as evidenced by the "new" cabinetry (Looks like Home Depot stuff) and the bulkhead re-paint (should be teak). Really bad placement of the stove/oven IMO. NOT a user friendly galley area. Same deal with the dresser in the master-cheap aftermarket. Also looks like some "work" has been done to the bulkhead immediately to the left of said dresser. What's with that? Rot replacement?

Foredeck had been "remodeled" in poor taste (again IMO) and you will be constantly tripping over the chaises. Lazerette looks like it hasn't been maintained which suggests that level of attention has been applied to the whole vessel. ER is a bit of a mess as well.

You do NOT have to "Start looking all over again". You've already decided pretty well what's on your want list so you're ahead in that respect.

Personally, I'd walk and be prepared to spend more for a vessel that is not a shat and shinola special.

As to #5 in your OP. HAH! Do NOT even think of that. If Momma's happy, everyone is happy.

What, if I may be so bold, is your upper limit regarding price?

Look at this...
1982 Defever 48 Trawler Power Boat For Sale - www.yachtworld.com
It's closer than Hamilton ON.
It would be much more fun to get it to Tampa.
It would probably save you a bundle in the long run.
It would probably be insurable from the start.
But...
It would need some compromising.


Your boat is out there.

I would:

1. Cut your loses and RUN away
2. Start looking all over again
3. Buy what she wants even over priced, but that would mean a boat that had been well cared for.
4. Try to persuade her to settle for something that does not check all boxes for her. Every boat will be a compromise.

Good luck.

What kind of cruising do you have planned?

1994 Bayliner 4788

1994 Bayliner 4788 Motoryacht Power Boat For Sale - www.yachtworld.com

1995

1995 Bayliner 4788 Pilot House Motoryacht Power Boat For Sale - www.yachtworld.com

1996

1996 Bayliner 4788 Pilot House Motoryacht Power Boat For Sale - www.yachtworld.com

Or

1992 47' Mainship

1992 Mainship 47 Motor Yacht/ 3 Stateroom Power Boat For Sale -

or 1999 43'

1999 Mainship 430 Trawler, 3 Staterooms Power Boat For Sale - www.yachtworld.com

Newer, less problematic boats, similar to those of many here.

1987 47' Marine Trader

1987 Marine Trader Tradewinds Power Boat For Sale - www.yachtworld.com

or 1986 46' Cheoy Lee

1987 Cheoy Lee Trawler Power Boat For Sale - www.yachtworld.com

Or a Tollycraft. 1995 45'

1995 Tollycraft Tollycraft 45 Cockpit M/Y Power Boat For Sale - www.yachtworld.com

BandB; said:

The condition from the pictures looks like everything in it has been wet. I was wondering part way through if it had been sunk.

Click to expand...

Yup. I love looking at the peripherals in pictures, be they boats, homes or favorite pets. This series of interior photos is a gold mine of head scratchers and...

Why is it listed through a broker in Cleveland, Ohio?

Click to expand...

...is such a terrific catch.

Wifey B: Check boxes for the uninitiated....I know you're trying to hit all her list. Impossible

But she'll know if shown enough boats. Have you laid in bed perusing yachtworld together? I'm serious. We spent hours and hours at night just laying there with our tablets often linked to the tv, just looking at boat web sites.

But more...walk them, Watch House Hunters or any of those type shows. Never does a house meet every check box. The broker learns the couple, reads them, finds what hits the best, and they get a house they love. We did have check lists. Some were deal breakers, but most were preferences. For instance one of yours is Europa. What the heck is that anyway? I'm serious. Define it in your words, but more important what about it is important. Don't use a styling buzz word. There is something about it you like. Even more there's a "makes me feel". It may be on some things, makes me feel like its my home or makes me feel sexy or makes me feel comfortable or makes me feel like I have a real kitchen.

Even something like Pilothouse should be a "soft" requirement. The requirement is good vision, plenty of space around the helm, door to the side...perhaps....I don't know. Our loop boat doesn't have a Pilothouse but the lower helm I think has the benefits of one plus.

A good buyers broker knows how to ask and how to listen. Will show you perhaps something at first you don't think fits, but the moment you walk on it, you fall in love with it.

Hubby B; what a great starter kit you provided in post 12 and all but RI could be drive bys on a weekend outing. Love that Tolly.

Run away, start over. There is a good one out there for you, takes patience. The more you see the more you will be able to sum up the offerings yourself so you don't have to survey crap.

Don't be shy, be forceful with the broker. In fact, "get" a broker you like and have him work for you instead of meeting numerous strangers. I know 2 great brokers in Vancouver which I mention because they are out there.

Patience and re-read Wifey B's post.

Have you looked at Hatteras flush deck motoryachts? I think that will check all of your boxes, plus they are as common as potato chips in Florida.


Keith

Hawgwash said:

Hubby B; what a great starter kit you provided in post 12 and all but RI could be drive bys on a weekend outing. Love that Tolly.

Click to expand...

Well, I think a lot of people start out thinking "Trawler" but because of price vs age find themselves drawn to Bayliner, Mainship, Meridian, Tollycraft and find out that those boats are perfectly suited to the planned cruising.

Sometimes, it's a good exercise just to look around, walk the docks in your area of intended use, see what others have. There's also a reason he has had problems finding the boat he found in South Florida. It's not a high volume South Florida type of boat. That's just not where most of them are. It would be like looking for a Riva in Seattle.

"Perfect Balance " , if so .... Interesting that it is listed on one site at $110k and another at $144k which is it ?

The only way to justify anything close to that higher price is if is a fresh water boat (minus one loop trip) I hope they didn't not tell you that it was a fresh water boat, it is obviously a long term saltie and was not even licensed in Canada until after 2006. Many hoses pictured are in bad shape, there appears to be soft areas on the aft cabin trunk. The inverter is not grounded. Soldboats data below ....

boatpoker said:

"Perfect Balance " , if so .... Interesting that it is listed on one site at $110k and another at $144k which is it ?

The only way to justify anything close to that higher price is if is a fresh water boat (minus one loop trip) I hope they didn't not tell you that it was a fresh water boat, it is obviously a long term saltie and was not even licensed in Canada until after 2006. Many hoses pictured are in bad shape, there appears to be soft areas on the aft cabin trunk. The inverter is not grounded. Soldboats data below ....

Click to expand...

My first thought in looking at it, was in the $50k to $75k range and the sold boats tends to support that unless in pristine condition.

All of the above, but firstly walk away from this one.

This is a money pit waiting for a sucker.

DON"T throw any more good money after bad.

Trust your surveyor.

Just had a closer look at the Yacht World and soldboats photos. I'd put some money on the table that this boat is the second one in the soldboats list I posted above. ie. it was sold in December 2011 for $57k

Wow

Thanks you for such awesome responses. I am honored that so many people are willing to give up their time to provide me with some guidance.

I have been asked so many questions so I will try respond in a single email and forgive me if I don't answer all of them.

So, I grew up surfing, fishing and boating the waters of Southern Africa and moved to the USA 20 yrs ago where I have been surfing, fishing and boating the water of Florida and the Caribbean.

Until recently I ran center console fishing boats until the BOSS said it time to spend more time cruising than fishing.

While I have not been a cruiser before we have spent time on our friends boat in the Caribbean cruising there.

Back to the boat, I have attached the summary page of the survey at the end of the thread. THAT IS THE BOAT HAWGWASH!!!

I own rental properties and I remodel homes and I am trying to retire from fixing things rather than retire to it. I understand boating and there is always something to fix, but while I can and I am willing to fix this boat, it has to be worth my while. I would honestly prefer something I don't have to fix and can go cruising.

I was told that its impossible to bring a boat from the west coast as there is no way to transport it as they cant fit under bridges for road and if that is an option BandB, I would love to find out more.

The MRS was the one who said lest get a bigger boat and go cruising so as to how much we have looked over boats together, it has been hours and hours.

I will read all your recommendations and reach out to those members for some questions if needed.

I am willing to drop 100k cash for the right boat, I don't want to finance anything, but will be willing to take on some work for the right price.

I do not have a buyers broker and would be willing to take some recommendations from the members. What I don't understand is surely the broker is guiding the seller to get the deal done. The broker has flown to the boat 3 times and so he has money invested in it.

The surveyor is Peter McGuire and seems exceptionally knowledgeable and extremely thorough, so I do trust him.

Keith, I have looked at some of the Hatteras's, but not sure of that one, so I will look.

The plan is to phase out of the business over the next 12-24 months so we can go on longer and longer cruises around Florida and the Caribbean. We would be living on board while we share a condo with my wife parents who are snowbirds.

Thank you all and I will re read the posts tonight with the Mrs and respond.

Survey results

[FONT=&quot]SYSTEMS:[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]1. ELECTRICAL 12 – VOLTS: (a) Ensure that all batteries are properly secured with positive[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]terminal boots fitted and due regard for potential heat build - up and venting of battery gases. (b)[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Attend to other DC electrical observations incl. (a) to (h) as described in the text (recommend to[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]engage the services of a professional marine electrician). (ABYC ® E10 / E11) * * *[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]2. DIESEL: (a) “USCG A” approved hose is recommended throughout for flexible fuel lines[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot](“USCG A2” for fill and vent and “USCG A1 - 15” for supply and return). Secure as necessary to[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]eliminate the chance of chafe. (b) Attend to apparent fuel seepage at the supply pick up points[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]as described. (c) Provide heat shields below the “Racor” (plastic) sight bowls. (d) Provide[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]bonding wires to connect the fill fittings and tanks to the common ground / engine blocks. (ABYC[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]® H33) * * *[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]3. ELECTRICAL 110 – VOLTS: (a) Attend to various un – grounded / incorrectly wired[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]receptacles / missing receptacle boxes etc. and install a “GFCI” type outlet in the forward head.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot](b) A “Marine UL” circuit breaker panel is recommended for Line (b) with double pole main[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]breaker, branch circuits and polarity indicator. (c) Provide a DC disconnect, chassis ground and[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Class T fuse for the inverter. (d) (Optional) ABYC ® A28 compliant galvanic isolators are[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]recommended (30 – amp rating each service). (e) Attend to other AC related observations as[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]described in the text (recommend to engage the services of a professional marine electrician).[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot](ABYC ® E11 / A28 / A31) * * *[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]4. THRU HULLS: (a) Label all valves as to function and draw up a master list / diagram for ease[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]of reference. (b) Double clamp hose connections at thru hull valves (where practicable). (c) Free[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]up all “frozen” valves and properly cap off those that are not used. * * *[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]5. ALARMS: Additional alarms as described are recommended.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]6. LPG / PROPANE: (a) Recommend the LPG locker be dedicated for that purpose. (b)[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Display a “Caution…LPG…” notice at the LPG locker access. (c) Vent the locker overboard to[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]eliminate any chance of propane vapor from entering the accommodations. (d) An LPG alarm[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]is recommended. (ABYC ® A1 & A3) * *[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]MAINTENANCE:[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]7. (a) A 75 Psi relief valve recommended for the water heater, led by hose overboard. (b) A[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]pressure regulator and a flow limiter recommended for the dock water system. * *[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]8. Clean the bilge. * * *[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]9. Grind out and repair damage to the keel / aft. * * *[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]10. Continue with ongoing maintenance of superstructure etc., incl. surface coatings (paint work),[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]sealing and bedding etc. * *[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]11. Initiate a schedule to re – tab separated internal frames and bulkheads etc. * *[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]12. (a) Install new propeller shaft and rudder anodes. (b) Replace “starboard “A” bracket[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]“Cutless” bearing and attend to the “tight” port “A” bracket bearing. * * *[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]13. Replace the broken lazarette rim drains. * *[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]14. Replace mild steel (mast) rigging components and the bow towing eye with S/S. * *[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]UPGRADES:[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]15. The rig / vessel is not grounded for lightning strikes. Should a system be desired ABYC ®[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]TE4 standard can be provided on request. *[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]16. Latest ABYC ® E11 recommends an “ELCI” (Equipment leakage circuit interrupter”) on AC[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]shore power systems. *[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]17. One starter battery per main engine is recommended. *[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]US COAST GUARD:[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]18. Provide additional navigation and safety equipment as required for the intended use and at[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]minimum ensure compliance with the “US Federal Requirements” for 40 – 65 foot pleasure[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]vessels. Refer to the latest “Federal Requirements” for complete details. * * *[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]PRIORITIES:[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]* * * Action is recommended before or as part of 2016 commissioning.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]* * Action is recommended during the 2016 season / before 2017.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]* Action is recommended / suggested as an upgrade. Mostly reflects evolving standards.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]With the exception of “devoid of extras”, “PERFECT BALANCE” surveyed in overall[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]“BUC Condition 5” (“Substantial yard work required”).[/FONT]

Hello ShaunC,

First I would like to say My wife and I feel your pain. We have seen a lot of boats with "Deferred Maintenance" or owner added "Improvements". The boat does look enticing from the exterior photos.
I would say your surveyor got quite a workout with this boat. You should keep his/her name for a future survey. From the Household (not marine rated) hot water heater with its AC lines taped to a support post, to the household fridge that will not run on DC without taxing the inverter, to the AC wires dangling above the headboard, and my favorite; the 19B Plant Master Multipurpose hose being used as the primary fuel line. Manufacturer states it is oil resistant but not to be used in constant contact with fuels! Plant Master™ Xtreme™ Braided Hose | Gates Corporation
These are just a few observations from scanning the listing. Many people have already stated this: Time to move on.

Good Luck

Todd
http://www.gates.com/products/indus...e/multi-purpose/plant-master-xtreme-325-braid

Boatpoker, yes it was, I asked the surveyor for it recently and I did find out the current owner did buy it and did do some upgrades to do the loop, but its not worth double what he paid for it. Its listed in CAD so the price changes with the exchange rate.
The electrical is a rats nest and needs to be ripped out and redone. The current owner/ owners have added and spliced all kinds of crap all over the place.

Boatpoker. You have great eyes as those items are mentioned in Peters survey.

Shaunc said:

Boatpoker. You have great eyes as those items are mentioned in Peters survey.

Click to expand...

Shaunc, Peter Mcquire has been a good friend for many years and is one of the very best around.
For that kind of money, you can find a good one.
Good luck with the hunt.

That survey was the best $4k you've spent in your life. I see $50k worth of total work to be done on that boat the way the work doubles as you do it because you find more and more. And that's all before the engine report.

One other thing. "Boat of your Dreams". Unless you're someone who enjoys rehabbing boats, dreams involve getting out and cruising. Nothing worse than buying a boat and not being to use it. It's like paying ahead for your vacation in 2025.

You transport by ship. From the West Coast to Fort Lauderdale, you can transport from British Columbia and Mexico and Costa Rica. However, I doubt seriously that it makes sense in this price range to buy a West Coast boat. We're in the $30k-50k range depending on the boat.

BandB; said:

That survey was the best $4k you've spent in your life.

Click to expand...

Not all is lost either, he got to see the great white north in the middle of the winter. Some people spill that much on a weekend in Whistler.

Your 4K was well spent, the purchase price would not be. You had a fortunate (not lucky) escape because of the survey. And you learnt a lot.
May the search for the right boat go well.