lehman spare belt storage.

Is it a good idea to store a spare belt on engine for a FL120?

Understand it is to allow quick change with out coolant hose removal--

Is there any problem keeping an extra on engine?* JohnP

Yes, it's a smart thing to do. We keep a spare belt on each engine with the coolant hose pre-threaded through it. We don't have it mounted like the photo, however. Our spare belts are brought back alongside the engine and wire-tied to the lift ring on the exhaust manifold.

Marin wrote:

Yes, it's a smart thing to do. We keep a spare belt on each engine with the coolant hose pre-threaded through it. We don't have it mounted like the photo, however. Our spare belts are brought back alongside the engine and wire-tied to the lift ring on the exhaust manifold.

Someday when you get a chance could you snap a pic?* Like to see how that arrangement looks.* JohnP

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*

When storing spares , be sure to put oil filters and fuel filters in an air tight bag.

FF wrote:

When storing spares , be sure to put oil filters and fuel filters in an air tight bag.

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**********Is that to keep the acid rain off?* Or preventing rust in general?* JohnP

********* Usually keep mine in their original box in a closed plastic storage container, not air tight.

*

JohnP wrote:

Is it a good idea to store a spare belt on engine for a FL120?

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I missed this when I responded to your other thread.* I think its a really good idea.*

*

I carry spare belts and hoses, and also one of those emergency belt replacements that you can snap on. Get you through until you get to a better place to change the belts. Of course, if you change your belts on a regular basis they really shouldn't fail on you.

The 135 doesn't require removing a coolant hose to swap out.

We stow ours on the side of the engine with wire ties, like this, http://tinyurl.com/4strxbd . Chuck

JohnP wrote:
Someday when you get a chance could you snap a pic?* Like to see how that arrangement looks.

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Took this today.



*

Wow... That's quite a design flaw with those engines.

GonzoF1 wrote:

Wow... That's quite a design flaw with those engines.

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What design flaw..............

It is a British design!!!

HOLLYWOOD

hollywood8118 wrote:

*
GonzoF1 wrote:

Wow... That's quite a design flaw with those engines.

Click to expand...

What design flaw..............

It is a British design!!!

HOLLYWOOD

*

Actually, it's not.* The Ford of England base engine did not have the header tank with its hose connections.* The tank and its associated plumbing is part of the Lehman marinization kit.* The base engine was designed to be plumbed to a radiator.* So the header tank and the hose run is an American design (from New Jersey, which may explain things )

*


-- Edited by Marin on Monday 31st of January 2011 12:52:45 PM

All the thousands of Lehmans from Linden NEW JERSEY propelling our boats and its not good enough!** JohnP

JohnP wrote:

All the thousands of Lehmans from Linden NEW JERSEY propelling our boats and its not good enough!** JohnP

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Nobody is perfect and that is a bad design plain and simple no matter where it comes from. "Couch engineering" at it's best.* We are forced to store a belt in place in very bad conditions for storage of a rubber product...in excessive heat and folded to take a set.
Oh well, we live with that and move on.

The Lehman marinzation kit has other flaws, too. The worst one is the design of the drive coupler that connects the raw water pump to the engine's accessory drive. Bob Smith designed this coupler and he told me that while it made sense at the time it's a less than ideal design, was extremely difficult and expensive to manufacture, and has a fatal flaw that dooms every one of them to eventual catastrophic failure unless the problem is caught early. The drive coupler is no longer available new, and Bob said that repairing them is a short-lived fix at best. There is a good solution to all this, but he told me that the Lehman drive coupler was the only part of the Lehman FL120 conversion kit to have had a factory recall.

The good news is that storing a spare belt on the engine doesn't subject it to as much heat as it might with a different engine. The engine room temperature in our boat rarely hits 100 degrees with both engines running and the exhaust manifold is cooled. In warmer climates I suppose it's a different situation, however.

Marin,* Thanks for posting the image of your spare belt placement.

I kind of like the way CaptChuck has his- but hey I am from Jersey.

Tell us more about the pump drive recall.* How does one know if their engine is part of the recall?* Or if it was taken care of?*

Willing to learn--on the East Coast.** Thanks JohnP

The recall was not due to the design flaw, it was apparently due to a manufacturing flaw. This was a long, long time ago when the Ford Lehman 120 first came out. I assume at the time the drive couplers that were recalled*were either replaced or had new parts installed in place of the faulty ones. I have no idea how long the recall was in effect but in any event it's a moot point now since Lehman hasn't existed for years.

The design flaw is the drive tang on the end of the coupler drive, the piece that mates with the drive of the off-the-shelf Jabsco pump that bolts to the drive. Eventually this drive tang will start to crack and at that point (according to Bob) it's just a matter of time before it breaks. When it does you lose your cooling water right now and the surest way to kill an FL120 is to overheat it. Bob told me that some shops attempt to weld the drive tang back together but this never works for very long.

-- Edited by Marin on Monday 31st of January 2011 08:40:24 PM

*I sure am glad I upgraded to the Johnson replacement pump. This is a modern design that does not have a drive tang or coupler. Looks like a more "normal" water pump.



-- Edited by jleonard on Tuesday 1st of February 2011 09:41:14 AM

When we had one of our stock raw water pumps pulled for an overhaul a few years ago the shop found that the Lehman drive coupler was starting to crack. So we switched both engines over to the Johnson pump. The drive coupler from the second engine was fine, so we've retained it and the pump bolted to it as a spare. The Johnson pump makes it a bit more challenging to change the lube oil in the injection pump right above it's worth it to get rid of the failure-prone Lehman pump drive. (The lube oil change is only a factor on the FL120, not on the FL135 which can also be fitted with a Johnson pump in place of the stock Lehman setup.)

Well you learn something everyday!* I went from thinking about where to keep my spare belt to wondering when my original raw water pump drive is going to fail.

At least they both have the same result a shutdown engine due to overheating.

But with only one engine its the when and where that hurts.

Next trip to the boat I will be checking to see if I have the old Jabsco or the newer Johnson.

I am betting on the Jabsco because there seemed to be plenty of room around the Simms for oil changes.

Perhaps in the Spring when I change out the belt and set up my spare, I will pull the pump and check the drive end.* I know I have some new (Jabsco I think impellers so I might as well change that too.)

I am a big fan of "If is not broke don't fix it".** However I got to check this out.* JohnP

-- Edited by JohnP on Tuesday 1st of February 2011 05:18:29 PM

How much do I have to take apart to upgrade to the Johnson Pump?** JohnP

John--- The Johnson pump is a bolt-on replacement for the Jabsco/Lehman pump and pump drive. You simply unbolt the Lehman drive coupler and the Jabsco pump attached to it from the engine's accessory case and bolt the Johnson pump in it's place. It uses the same mounting holes. You will most likely have to change the hose between the pump and the engine's lube oil heat exchanger because the Johnson pump is shorter so the hose needs to be longer. You may not have to change the hose from the intake sea strainer to the pump, however.

The intake and outflow of the Johnson pump are on opposite sides of the pump chamber so on the FL120 an elbow fitting needs to be installed in each opening. On an FL120 the pump is positioned so the intake is on the bottom and the outflow is on the top. This is why changing the injection pump's lube oil becomes more challenging because the outflow elbow leaves very little room under the injection pump drain plug.

The recommended Johnson pump for the FL120 is the 3/4" model, the recommended pump for the FL135 is the 1" model. However at the suggestion of Bob and our diesel shop, we had 1" pumps put on our FL120s. Slightly higher water flow volume, which doesn't make any difference to the engine since its temperature is controlled by the thermostat, but it made a noticeable difference in the temperature of the transmissions. And any time you can reduce the operating temperature of a Velvet Drive, it's a Good Thing.

If you're interested in this conversion I suggest that you talk to Bob Smith or Brian Smith at American Diesel.

The picture I am getting is that the Johnson Pump has the drive gear attached to it. So it elminates the trouble prone Lehman drive for the Jabsco.

Did Bob Smith give any idea as to how many hours before the original drive bearings become worn enough to cause coupler failure.* My engine has 1650hours.

Back before Lehman went out of production, what was the outcome of the recall?
I doubt if they gave everyone Johnson Pumps.* How did they satisfy their customers when lehman was still in business?

I do like the idea of going with a 1" pump,* a lot of the back bays and inland places I go have pretty high Summer water temps.

JohnP

JohnP wrote:

1. Did Bob Smith give any idea as to how many hours before the original drive bearings become worn enough to cause coupler failure.* My engine has 1650hours.

2. Back before Lehman went out of production, what was the outcome of the recall?* I doubt if they gave everyone Johnson Pumps.* How did they satisfy their customers when lehman was still in business?

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1.* No. Our engines had about 2,000 hours on them when we discovered the cracked drive tang on the port coupler.* The starboard coupler was fine.* I don't think the problem has anything to do with bearing wear, it's the cracking of the drive tang that drives the pump that's the problem.

2.* I don't even know if Johnson pumps were around back in the 1960s which is I assume when*the Lehman pump drive was recalled.* Bob didn't tell me why the drive was recalled or what the fix was, only that it was extremely difficult to manufacture and was the only component of the Lehman marinization kit to have had*a factory recall.*I doubt the recall had anything to do with the*potential for*the drive tang to crack--- that probably wasn't discovered for many years.* *My guess is*the recall*was over a defective component due*to a manufacturing problem*and they replaced it.* But you'd have to ask Bob to get the correct story.*

I will have to check with Bob Smith.

It just seems that from the start in the 1960s to the time my engine was built 1982, they had 20 plus years and lots of engine hours to know they had a problem.

You think somewhere along the line they would have made a better pump drive tang.
Or corrected what ever manufacturing issue was causing the problem.
Instead of just sending out engines with a potential defect.

I will have to see what Mr. Smith has to say.

-- Edited by JohnP on Wednesday 2nd of February 2011 08:46:26 AM

JohnP wrote:

1.* It just seems that from the start in the 1960s to the time my engine was built 1982, they had 20 plus years and lots of engine hours to know they had a problem.

2.* You think somewhere along the line they would have made a better pump drive tang.

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1.* Not necessarily.* Given the average annual use of recreaetional boats which seems to vary from 50 to 100 hours a year, it could take well over 20 years for the problem to become frequent enough to be noiticeable.* Like I said, we had a cracking drive tang on one coupler but the other coupler was fine.* I have no idea what contributes to the cracking.* Harmonic vibration, perhaps?* This could explain why it happens on some engines and not on others* with the same amount of time on them.* Every engine even of the same type is a bit different in some way or another.

I don't hear of these things breaking left and right.* But it's something that occurs just often enough for our diesel shop to be well aware of it (which is why when we needed the pump overhauled they removed the coupler too because they wanted to check it's drive tang) and Bob Smith is certainly aware of it since he's the one who told me about the less-than-ideal design of the coupler (which he designed).* He said it was a logical design at the time but time has shown it to be not as good as it could have been.

2.* Maybe they did.* I have no idea if this problem can surface only in older FL120s or if it occurs across all the years of manufacture.* In any event, it appears to be random and totally unpredictable.* Had our water pump not needed a new shaft seal when it did we would have continued operating the engine with no idea that the coupler was getting close to failing.

The good news is that there is a great cure which is actually better than the original setup.* The Johnson pump is smaller yet moves more water and so far as I know has an utterly reliable drive coupler.



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