Contract Signed / New Build Underway

Jeff F said:

Sorry if this is a dumb question, but don't the alternative stabilization systems only work when underway?

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Most stabilizers today are zero-speed stabilizers. Actually Quantum trademarked the term Zero Speed. The reduction of roll on Naiad Stabilizers is promoted as 90% underway and 70% at rest.

Side Power then claims their vector fins are 50% more effective than regular stabilizers.

There has been a lot of advancement in stabilizers and they're no longer just fins stuck on the bottom of the boat. Fin stabilizers do have to be larger to work at zero speed than if used just for underway.

Gyro's do have several significant pluses. One that's important to many is that they're fully contained inside the boat.

Jeff F said:

Sorry if this is a dumb question, but don't the alternative stabilization systems only work when underway?

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Not some of the new ones. But they do require significant power. Underway, most are powered by hydraulic pumps driven by one of the mains. Providing that power at anchor without running the mains is a bit of a problem -- doable, but complicated. Especially if you have two gensets and want to be able to use both equally.

MYTraveler said:

Not some of the new ones. But they do require significant power. Underway, most are powered by hydraulic pumps driven by one of the mains. Providing that power at anchor without running the mains is a bit of a problem -- doable, but complicated. Especially if you have two gensets and want to be able to use both equally.

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A lot have PTO's on the generators or one of them.

Stabilizers - A Final Thought

Its great to receive feedback, questions and overall general discussion on stabilization. Before we move forward onto other options and aspects of the boat, I would like to add one final thought on the cost aspect of making this decision. As with all the boats we have built or purchased over the years, the subject or limiting factor of budget needs to be part of the equation when it comes down to the "options" list. While our budget could handle the addition of the stabilization and the generator required we know we are also well aware of resale. We always try to balance of investment (for our use) and what is important later with resale. There are many experts out their who may agree or disagree with our decision but all I can say is our boating decisions have worked well for us and with resales. Every boat we have owned has yielded excellent ROI's (that's investment on life'e experiences being on the water with normal depreciation). At some point in the future I will provide some insight into our personal resales including three boats we sold for more then we paid for them.

As I mentioned in my early posts, the decision to build a new Helmsman 38PH was based on our desire to own a simpler yet high quality, reliable, proven and safe boat we could hopefully use on both coasts. We like the fact the boats foundation (size and price) offered the best "base" to work from. Starting with a very long list of "standard" equipment (unlike other boats we have built) we didn't need to add a lot. The "options" we did consider were more personal choices to support our life style. With respect to stabilization I like the fact the 38PH fits in the size range that "if" someone was really interested in adding them (Active Fin or Gyro) they could but it is really a personal choice and not something required. With over 25 boats delivered to date (none with stabilization) and one of the best resale values I have seen on the market recently its nice to know that we do not have to worry about resale. In fact some may say adding the complexity of such a system on a boat that really doesn't require them (like a FD Hull, KK 39 comes to mind) could scare away some buyers.

One of the reasons we selected a semi-displacement boat was so that we didn't "have" to add stabilization. We all know of dozens of boat brands that fit in this category most do not even offer stabilization unless you get into the 50' size or larger. We plan to use hull form and speed to compensate (as much as possible) and watch the weather a little closer. This is exactly what two former Nordhavn owners did when they switched to their Helmsman 38's. Another point for those who are reading this post and may not realize that stabilizers are great in beam seas (waves hitting the side of the boat) but do very little in head seas. I can remember more then once telling Mary during trips on our N40's that I would rather have a beam sea and let the stabilizers handle them then a head sea where the only thing that help make the ride more comfortable is a longer waterline.

Thanks again for everyone's contribution. We are waiting for the yard to forward drawings of the new salon interior and will post them along with comments. I believe our design may become an optional layout available to others in the future.

We also need to discuss one of my favorite areas of the boat "Engine Room" and accessibility while underway. After reading that post you will really see how how this boat stands out from the competition and how it influence our decision. Happy Holidays.

John T.

The one place we don't consider as you do and perhaps should, but that's resale value. We know the time will come we'll sell. We have picked well respected boats that should do well. However, we absolutely overbuild them in terms of equipment and extras and those items do not pay in resell. You can add everything known to man but ultimately it's the brand, model and age. I figure all extras depreciate at the very least as least twice as rapidly as the boat and may be closer to three times as rapidly. So, what you're saying makes a lot of sense, even if we don't do it.

One reason we don't look at it as much is we do figure on owning at least ten years before any resale. Now, if I only knew how to determine the value of pleasure since that's the return on the investment. How often people have asked me for financial advice on things like a boat where there is no financial justification.

N4061 said:

We also need to discuss one of my favorite areas of the boat "Engine Room" and accessibility while underway.

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While I know headroom will come up in your ER discussion, I'd be interested in knowing it throughout the boat. For me, it's eliminated a lot of boats from consideration. I really need 6'6" of headroom as I'm 6'4 1/2" without shoes.

Engine Room

BandB said:

While I know headroom will come up in your ER discussion, I'd be interested in knowing it throughout the boat. For me, it's eliminated a lot of boats from consideration. I really need 6'6" of headroom as I'm 6'4 1/2" without shoes.

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We plan to spend some serious time discussing the engine room (one of my favorite places on a boat) next month. I'm sure that post will generate some discussion and strong opinions.

John

Shore Power Connection - Where is the best place?

While many people may not think twice about the location of their boats shore power connection, this is a subject we have come to appreciate the significance of "getting it right". We actually went as far as asking Scott (Helmsman Trawlers) to relocate the connection on our boat. Once again Scott had no problem supporting my request and at no additional cost.

Having owned various size boats with different locations of their shore power connections, I came to realize that "location" once again really does matter and should be considered. A major factored tied to this decision should be based on the way you normally dock your boat. We like to dock bow first and resist backing in when ever possible. This makes for an extra long cable run if the shore power connections are on the transom or in the aft cockpit like we had on our most recent boat (Nordhavn 35). To make matters worse on the N35, the connection was on the starboard side of the aft deck requiring the cable to be dropped onto the aft deck floor and run across the floor (tucked as close as possible to the salon bulkhead) before bringing it up and into the connector.

Our N40 had a mid ship location just outside the port side pilothouse door which lead to the Portuguese bridge. For us this location was perfect in that allowed for a shorter cable run and the power cord was away from regular foot traffic.

Scott and I spent some time aboard a H38 discussing the pro's & con's of my request and in the end we agreed we would target a similar location to our previous N40 and outside the port side pilothouse door that would allow for an installation around waist high. Not needing to bend down or over reach every time you need to connect or disconnect the power cords was another simple but long term benefit of a properly place connection. I will not even go into discussing some the more unusual or difficult to reach locations I have seen even aboard a few well know builders boats.

We are still discussing the different style connections available including the newer, square type and almost self locking model available. When you consider the risk of fire at this critical connection point it pays to go for the best.

So, there you have our thoughts and planning for shore power connections. No rocket science here by any means and some may say this is all personal preference but for us it works. Its amazing how even the little things come into play when you are building new boat. We are very fortunate that Scott is so accommodating and really listens to his buyers.

John T.

N4061 said:

Having owned various size boats with different locations of their shore power connections, I came to realize that "location" once again really does matter and should be considered. A major factored tied to this decision should be based on the way you normally dock your boat. We like to dock bow first and resist backing in when ever possible. This makes for an extra long cable run if the shore power connections are on the transom or in the aft cockpit like we had on our most recent boat (Nordhavn 35). To make matters worse on the N35, the connection was on the starboard side of the aft deck requiring the cable to be dropped onto the aft deck floor and run across the floor (tucked as close as possible to the salon bulkhead) before bringing it up and into the connector.

John T.

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Why not have two connections? The PO of my boat added one on the bow, so there is a choice in where you plug in. That could be easily accommodated in a new build.

My boat had two connections. Just in front of pilothouse doors on each side. But, the installation was poor in that the unused socket had live pins in it. If you go with two sockets then you should have a switch to prevent this.

Shore Power Connections

Jeff F said:

Why not have two connections? The PO of my boat added one on the bow, so there is a choice in where you plug in. That could be easily accommodated in a new build.[/QUOTE


Excellent question and something we thought about. The primary reasons for not choosing two connections were: we didn't expect to ever use a connection in the aft deck area, extra cost and desire to keep the boat simple.

John

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I really appreciate your approach John. The biggest turn off for us when it comes to larger boats is how fast systems get complex. Simplicity is golden.

KISS should be the mantra on at least small to medium sized pleasure boats... it is for us. And, we love it that way... btw... so does our Tollycraft - lol.


We still have most features and creature comforts that could ever be required aboard. Pleasure boating is to be fun, relaxing, and not a chore. KISS Rules!

I have two shore power connections, one on the bow and one on the aft deck, with a selection switch on the breaker panel. I primarily use the one on the bow, but have used the other one many times because it is more convenient in one way or another. Like now, my boat is in the yard for maintenance and the bow connection is too far away so the aft is easily used instead.

A look at safety railings

While some buyers of a new or used boat may not give too much thought about size, location and construction of a boats safety railings we take this subject serious. After ten years of living aboard and open-ocean coastal cruising we have come to appreciate the importance well-placed and strong railings can have on safety and comfort.

Our approach to evaluating a boats railings starts with location followed by height then construction. We start by studying all open areas on the boats exterior and confirm if railings are required or not. An example were railing may not be required is the aft cockpit where the height of the transom and sides are sufficient enough that railings are not required (common on most trawlers designs) but this is likely the only part of a boats exterior that can be without railings. Once you venture forward of the salon or pilothouse to set the anchor there is nothing to hang onto except the side railings and these need to be the correct height and strength. Upper deck areas (above the salon) used for entertaining and launching the dingy also required safe railings as well as any exterior steps.

Once we determine where railings are required we then look at their height and diameter required for the specific area on the boat. We look for railings that are above our knees (we are not very tall so for us this is not normally and issue) and have a hefty diameter (greater than 1”). We have found some builders will use different diameters within a specific section of railing with larger on top where you normally grab onto and smaller diameters in the middle or lower section just for structural integrity. We prefer a constant diameter everywhere.

Once we are confident the boat has the right locations and size of railings we look at construction. If we see a boat with fastened railings we walk away. A strong railing will be a single welded piece (more costly to build but worth it) with smooth and polished welds. As good as a railing may be fabricated, if it is not properly secured using good size screws it will become loose over time. Make sure the screws are flush to the large mounting base to prevent injury when washing the boat or even handling dock lines. One trick that works well is to run a shirt sleeve or soft towel over the weld joints and screw installations and look for anything that gets hung up. This simple trick may help indicate the level of fit and finish that was applied during constructing the boat.

The type of material used in the construction of the railing is very important if you want trouble free use over many years. The railings should be made from marine grade stainless steel with similar screws to prevent rusting. While there are different grades available there are two commonly used in recreational boat building.

So how does the Helmsmen 38PH stack up to the above? I can report that I was impressed with design and construction so much that I actually challenged Scott on the height on the bow railings wondering if they weren’t too high. It didn’t take long for me to realize my observation was driven more by appearance then function. I thought if we lowered the railings a few inches it would provide a longer or sleeker look forward of the pilothouse. Scott pushed back some from the safety perspective but was willing to accommodate my request. In the end I went with safety and left the height as is but we did agree to extend the bow railing about 12” – 16” over the anchor to allow for easier access (functionality) while providing the slightly sleeker look. I’m not sure many other builders would spend as much time on this one aspect of the boats design, make the change and not charge the customer.

While I plan to spend time in the future discussing our experience working with Scott on a new build, let me at least say he has been more then accommodating with our requests including a complete redesign of the salon. We work very well together with me bouncing hundreds of ideas off him (OK, a slight exaggeration but not that far off) and discussing the pro’s & con’s of each one. For myself this is the best part of building a boat and being able to semi-customize our build makes the process that much more enjoyable.

Happy Holidays!
John T.

John:


Not to be too critical or churlish, but you have posted thousands of words, probably pushing ten thousand, on your new build and not one single picture. We are anxiously waiting.


David

Safety Railing

It is overlooked. We have one build where the only real difference between the standard rails on it and the next larger size boat was the stanchions were 6" taller. We went with the taller ones. I feel like we drastically reduced the potential for person overboard. We also looked recently with a friend at one of the finest quality and most advanced designs in a sport boat. Walk around deck. No railings at all. Would detract from the appearance. I guess person overboard would not in their mind. I personally know the designer of the boat. It's technologically great, performance is great, and it's beautiful. But if I bought one, it would get rails.

Pictures of New H38

djmarchand said:

John:


Not to be too critical or churlish, but you have posted thousands of words, probably pushing ten thousand, on your new build and not one single picture. We are anxiously waiting.


David, we are more anxious then anyone to see the hull come out of the mold and post the photo. Up to now the pictures of the interior hull lay up and stringers are the most exciting for most readers. Hopefully next week we have something we can post here. Thanks for following.

John

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Kiss

Art said:

KISS should be the mantra on at least small to medium sized pleasure boats... it is for us. And, we love it that way... btw... so does our Tollycraft - lol.


We still have most features and creature comforts that could ever be required aboard. Pleasure boating is to be fun, relaxing, and not a chore. KISS Rules!

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Art, like you we appreciate the KISS approach as long as it has what keeps the first mate happy (which our boat will) and is safe. We don't plan to cross an ocean and limit most of our trips to under 10 hours per day. Building or finding a boat to support the way you plan to use it 90% of time is what we learned makes most sense. Unfortunately we see many boats over equipped leaving the builders and sales staff happy and owners over spending. My guess is this trend will continue as long as buyers approach boating as a true luxury and don't put much thought into how they really plan to use the boat.

John T.

N4061 said:

Art, like you we appreciate the KISS approach as long as it has what keeps the first mate happy (which our boat will) and is safe. We don't plan to cross an ocean and limit most of our trips to under 10 hours per day. Building or finding a boat to support the way you plan to use it 90% of time is what we learned makes most sense. Unfortunately we see many boats over equipped leaving the builders and sales staff happy and owners over spending. My guess is this trend will continue as long as buyers approach boating as a true luxury and don't put much thought into how they really plan to use the boat.

John T.

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First mate happy and the most safety available are two of the top points in pleasure boating. Sounds to me like you well appreciate KISS... kind of a nice sounding acronym anyway! - Art

"The primary reasons for not choosing two connections were: we didn't expect to ever use a connection in the aft deck area, extra cost and desire to keep the boat simple.'

When costs and lifestyle are considered a hunk of wire installed inside and a deck socket are far easier to live with than an expensive out side power hose , that must be carried as inventory for the time it IS needed.And then lugged on deck to use.

An installed wire takes little internal room , a 50A power hose is probably 3 or 4 cubic ft .of storage.

KISS is a fine concept , a hand held GPS will tell you what is required as well as a 22x22 ship style screen, but EZ lazy living counts too.

Wifey B: I like kisses....oh yes....Hershey kisses...my man's kisses....lots and lots of kisses. Not dog or cat kisses....sorry but I know where their lips and tongues have been.

KISS.....a tired overused cliche used by boaters when they want to show disdain for a certain piece or pieces of technology but rest assured not all of it in their lives. It's like they find some convenient cut off line. Maybe it's just get what you're comfy with. But strong adherence to KISS and none of us would be on here communicating and we'd be taking an hour to warm today's leftovers and we'd be doing it all by candle and rowing our boats and....

Just a reminder not one of you wants wholesale KISS. You just want the degree of complexity you need and are comfortable with.

BandB said:

Wifey B: I like kisses....oh yes....Hershey kisses...my man's kisses....lots and lots of kisses. Not dog or cat kisses....sorry but I know where their lips and tongues have been.

KISS.....a tired overused cliche used by boaters when they want to show disdain for a certain piece or pieces of technology but rest assured not all of it in their lives. It's like they find some convenient cut off line. Maybe it's just get what you're comfy with. But strong adherence to KISS and none of us would be on here communicating and we'd be taking an hour to warm today's leftovers and we'd be doing it all by candle and rowing our boats and....

Just a reminder not one of you wants wholesale KISS. You just want the degree of complexity you need and are comfortable with.

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Correctorama... Wifie!

Every person enjoys/appreciates different heights and styles of KISS... on evrrrry "kiss" level. Yummy, Yum!!!

BTW - As technology expands so does the scope of KISS

Art said:

Correctorama... Wifie!

Every person enjoys/appreciates different heights and styles of KISS... on evrrrry "kiss" level. Yummy, Yum!!!

BTW - As technology expands so does the scope of KISS

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I think of some of the most basic items on cars today. You don't find a new car without A/C and Heat, but you did in the 70's or so. Who has hand cranks for their windows now? And anyone want to buy without power steering and power brakes. Or adjustable seats? Or inside hood and trunk release? Outside mirrors controlled from the inside? Radio? CD Player? Charging ports? Now, today there are things offered that I find enjoyable only the first day you have the car. Still I can't imagine a trip without GPS today and it will be standard before long. At one time if you intended to turn, you held your arm out the window.

Now I've not lived without any of the items I mentioned above. My first car was my parents' two or three year old Chrysler Lebaron they gave me when I turned 16. Air bags. My 1990 Lebaron had air bags. My wife had never owned a car without them. And toss in Catalytic Converter. I've never owned a car without it. Perhaps as a child I was in one.

BB - A cherished life you have lived. There are approx. 6 billion humans on this planet who do not have that gift. In U.S. there are many, many millions who also do not. Enjoy your luck of being placed in life such as you have. I do for mine! Most of the several hundred TF members who contribute have really good lives with much enjoyment available... we all are Very Lucky people.

Art said:

BB - A cherished life you have lived. There are approx. 6 billion humans on this planet who do not have that gift. In U.S. there are many, many millions who also do not. Enjoy your luck of being placed in life such as you have. I do for mine! Most of the several hundred TF members who contribute have really good lives with much enjoyment available... we all are Very Lucky people.

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Well said Art.

Art said:

BB - A cherished life you have lived. There are approx. 6 billion humans on this planet who do not have that gift. In U.S. there are many, many millions who also do not. Enjoy your luck of being placed in life such as you have. I do for mine! Most of the several hundred TF members who contribute have really good lives with much enjoyment available... we all are Very Lucky people.

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By the very fact those of us here have boats, we're among the lucky. And I do call it luck and good fortune. It's definitely not because we're better or more deserving.

One thing I've always tried to do is understand the lives of others, of that sewing operator making sheets or that single mom working retail for us. We do stay in touch with those less fortunate than us, whether it's a trip to the homeless shelter or an orphanage or to a soup kitchen. They need us all thinking of them and speaking up on their behalf.

We all talk about boats and cruising and to the vast majority of people it's all a very foreign concept. I admit to feeling guilty sometimes over all we have. People say we earned it but there are a lot of others who work harder than I ever did so why didn't they earn it? We also have an extended family and friends. There are a lot of people struggling through life alone. Many more who are with others but still lonely. I think how easily that could have been me.

Very lucky. And the day any of us forget that, we've fallen.

Water Drainage

Until you have spent time aboard in poor weather with seas washing across the deck or have lived aboard thru a raining season, you may not recognize the significance proper water drainage has on your boat. Over time you will come to realize how even the slightest design imperfection may become a real headache. While our previous boats were very well thought out allowing for sea, rain and rinse water to find its way overboard, there were still a few areas which drove me a little crazy. One particular drain path on our N40's allowed water to drain from behind the flybridge down into the side of the Portuguese Bridge landing on the steps. More then once I felt the uncomfortable feeling of cold water hitting the back of my neck during the rain or when washing the boat. Granted this was more of a nuisance then true a safety issue but it does make you appreciate the fact the rest of the boat had excellent drainage.

Other areas of drainage that are significantly more important include the anchor / anchor chain area and all deck areas. Anyone who has retrieved an anchor covered with mud will appreciate proper drainage overboard as you rinse everything down. All deck areas should be designed with molded drain paths along their edges to allow the exit of water without running across the decks themselves.

Large scuppers strategically place are equally important and a must have on most boats. We prefer scuppers with some type of cover or flap to help resist water from entering the boat underway while allowing for unrestricted water drainage overboard. The height of their installation above the boats waterline is also something to take a close look at.

While we have no experience with the Helmsman 38PH in this area we have been assured by Scott that he has enhanced the design over time to address these issues and believes current models will not have any issues. Living in PNW I trust Scott has this design aspect of the boat well thought out.

John T.

Engine Selection

Identifying and selecting an engine that best matches the boats hull form and desired performance is not a decision that should be taken lightly and requires research if you plan to deviate from the builders recommendation. I found this most challenging when exploring a custom built Downeast boat where the range of potential engine types, manufactures and size were overwhelming. Even within the relatively narrow field of semi-displacement trawlers options remain, but they are manageable. Our experience with diesel engine manufacturers was limited to Lugger and Yanmare, this required me to spend time researching information on-line and speaking with owners of similar size / type boats to help us make an educated decision. I quickly realized that Lugger was likely not the best fit for our planned use and did not want another Yanmare so I was entering unchartered waters.
While I have great respect for majority of trawler builders we researched, I was disappointed by many “production” builders who resisted any proposed changes to their standard engine selection. We felt those builders were a little more focused on risk and cost avoidance then exploring what could be an improvement to their existing selection.
So as you can imagine we found it very refreshing to hear Scott at Waterline Boats would accommodate just about any engine a buyer selected. We spoke with previous and current owners of the 38PH including a previous Nordhavn owner who selected a Lugger for his 38PH which we found interesting. What we discovered was that most owners liked the standard Cummins engine and reported very few issues. I was a little apprehensive at first but after two sea trials on two different boats with the Cummins engine I came to appreciate the response, noise levels, digital display and smooth controls. The amount of information provided on the small display located on the console was significantly greater then I had been accustomed on previous boats. Since our planned cruising speeds of 7 – 9 knots are only slightly above displacement hull speed (6 knots) we originally planned to stay with the standard 220hp engine but then upgraded to the larger 380HP (same block) after realizing the few extra knots at top end (13 knots) would be welcome if we found ourselves fighting currents in the PNW or east coast. Another factor which played into our decision was resale. We recognize the majority of folks who buy semi-displacement boats have limited time aboard and many want the higher speeds to make the most of their weekends so we felt the larger engine would provide a larger resale market.
We are pleased with our final decision and look forward to providing an update after we take delivery and spent some time cruising the coast. It will be interesting to see how much we use the higher end speed during a normal 8-10 hour cruise. Next time we will take a look at Trim-Tabs and our decision process.

John

N4061 said:

. It will be interesting to see how much we use the higher end speed during a normal 8-10 hour cruise.
John

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I think you'll find it's not the frequency with which you'll use greater speed, it's the appreciation of that ability when you do need or want it. Sea or current conditions can lead to it's use. The other thing that leads to many of us speeding up is the desire to reach our destination before dark or the desire to hit an inlet or other area at the most favorable tide. Even the occasional hurry to not miss a bridge or lock opening.