Contract Signed / New Build Underway

Am familiar with the anticipation! And the imagined horrors of the long-distance transport.

John;
I am enjoying reading your posts that share your thoughts and decision making for your new boat. Oddly enough much of what you share is exactly what I went through in making my choice to purchase my Helmsman 38, "Knot2Fast". Since my boat is moored at Waterline Boats I'm sure you have had a chance to be on her several times and of course are welcome to look at her whenever you are in Seattle.
I can tell you that I fell in love with the boat several years ago but am also someone who does a fair amount of research ahead of a purchase and since I was skipping 2footitis and going directly from a 24' SeaSport to a 38PH you can imagine I had a fair amount of trepidation. The point is that Scott and his team at Waterline has followed up on every single promise they made to me both in purchasing and the commissioning of the boat!
These boats are both very seaworthy and comfortable and no matter what dock I have tied up to, people stop by to look and talk about her.
Since I'm not much of a blogger, poster or tweeter feel free to ask me anything you think might be helpful for you to know since I have a new boat but do have a few hours on her now.
Jamie McPherson
Knot2Fast

Art said:

John - You have my vote! I really like reading your thread/posts. You two went about choosing a boat in very similar way me and mine do also. Lots o' persons are not too impressed with our choice of boat... and, that's OK with us. Each to their own! But, I do like reading everyone's opinions; keeps me refreshed in different perspectives.

If any boat owners' have such thin skin that they become offended by your choice/desire/needs/impressions/admissions stated in a post... well then... IMO they should not be on a boating forum! That's a whole other discussion!

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John,

Thank you for involving us in your thinking process. I'm sure there are a lot of newbies and oldbies out there who appreciate your process and the pros and cons.

Listening to pros with no cons is simply a waste of everyone's time

John,

I would just another "me too". This is a valuable thread so please keep it going. While everyone here has different ideas or preferences, whether slight or large differences, it's the process that is important. Explaining your thought process is valuable to me.

And I can't see why anyone would feel offended by another boater wanting a faster boat or in their minds a different look appeals to them more. I personally like the look of the N's, especially the "shippier" looking ones. Not offended by those folks that don't. Just feel they are wrong! Haha just kidding...

Keb

Process. As Marcus Lemonis says "People, Process and Product." But when it comes to decision making or selection, I always emphasize process as I did in business. If people do go through the process as you did, they'll stand a much better chance of making the right choice for themselves. You thought and worked it all through. I hope newcomers especially who are asking what boat to buy read your comments not to lead them to select the same boat you did, but to go through the complete process with no short cuts.

If someone goes through all the steps, I'll never question their end decision even if it's something I would have never chosen. But if someone just jumps in and buys without those steps then I'm always concerned, even if they're buying my favorite boat.

Our choices may be lousy for most people here, but the way we make them, much like how you made yours, will get most to the right answer for themselves. Here, you had a knowledgeable boat owner who went into it with a preference in his mind but by doing his research and going through the process selected something different and better for his situation.

I applaud the way you did it and am appreciative of you sharing.

Knot2Fast said:

John;
I am enjoying reading your posts that share your thoughts and decision making for your new boat. Oddly enough much of what you share is exactly what I went through in making my choice to purchase my Helmsman 38, "Knot2Fast". Since my boat is moored at Waterline Boats I'm sure you have had a chance to be on her several times and of course are welcome to look at her whenever you are in Seattle.
I can tell you that I fell in love with the boat several years ago but am also someone who does a fair amount of research ahead of a purchase and since I was skipping 2footitis and going directly from a 24' SeaSport to a 38PH you can imagine I had a fair amount of trepidation. The point is that Scott and his team at Waterline has followed up on every single promise they made to me both in purchasing and the commissioning of the boat!
These boats are both very seaworthy and comfortable and no matter what dock I have tied up to, people stop by to look and talk about her.
Since I'm not much of a blogger, poster or tweeter feel free to ask me anything you think might be helpful for you to know since I have a new boat but do have a few hours on her now.
Jamie McPherson
Knot2Fast

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Knot2 - Photos - in and out! Maybe you did already and I missed em??

Interesting thread. I looked at the Helmsman 38 at the most recent Boats Afloat show and was impressed (except I hit my head going from the pilothouse to the salon). I'll be curious to see how you've customized the boat.

The salon and pilothouse feel bigger compared to the Nordic Tug 37/39/40 and American Tug 395. Having a settee in the pilothouse is really nice and I like the loose chair in the salon. The tradeoff is no (small) second cabin—probably a good tradeoff for many cruising couples, especially if they host more happy hours than overnight guests.

The price tag is impressive, too. Base price looks to be about $170k below the American Tug and $215k below the Nordic. Not sure how closely these represent what buyers are actually paying.

Have fun with the new build and keep us posted.

This is Allan whose Helmsman 38PH is now on board a ship making its way to Seattle for delivery to me. The "apparent" larger salon is real mostly because the salon is full-beam without side decks. This was a huge selling point for us since we tend to do more living inside the boat than on the side decks. We do not foresee any problem with the lack of side decks in terms of docking since we have always had the made step on shore with the stern line and I hand her the bow line from the helm. Real stairs up to the upper deck are so much easier and nicer to use than an ladder as well.

The prices you see are really quite close to what you pay for the boat. The only additions are, of course, the electronics and maybe a tv and/or stereo. We just plan to put a Bose CD Wave Radio on board for our music and have had the boat wired for tv and antenna. Throw on the dink and we are really ready to go. Well, we have to fill the fridge to with some libations.

Allan

Congratulations John and Maria. It was just about a year ago that I ordered my 43 foot Helmsman Pilot House. What a great process you are heading into. I look forward to learning about my boat through your expert reporting on your boat!
I have 300 hours on my boat now and the whole experience has been great thanks largely to Scott and Lisa's professionalism.
Lee

I hope the OP will post another installment soon!

Really enjoying the thread! When you have a chance, let us know where we can locate your blog. I've only seen your posts here and on the Norhavn Dreamers emails. Thanks again for sharing.

How long is the Helmsman build process? Order to delivery?

Build time, which would include shipping time as well, is hard for me to tell since my boat already had some work done when I ordered it about 3 months ago My guess would be to figure about six months but you could call Scott Helker at Waterline Boats for a better estimate. It's worth the wait.

Difficulty Uploading Files

Hello all, we are having major issues uploading files or even copying an excel spreadsheet and chart. WE keep getting invalid files when we try to upload excel or Powerpoint. Copy and paste is not working. In deep here and looing for help. thanks

John

aginglawyer said:

Build time, which would include shipping time as well, is hard for me to tell since my boat already had some work done when I ordered it about 3 months ago My guess would be to figure about six months but you could call Scott Helker at Waterline Boats for a better estimate. It's worth the wait.

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I can advise that six months is in the ball park for a standard boat. We started out at six months but with the extra level of customization we are looking at seven months. Just for reference a new N40 would be about one year due mostly in part to the larger number of boats built at that yard compared to the Helmsman yard. Another lesson learned a long time ago is to remain flexible when it comes time to commissioning after the boat arrives. We will discuss this in greater detail in our future posts.

John

Displacement or Weight

Since we are struggling uploading attachments for our next post, I thought a quick post on a boats displacement may be of interest. For those wondering why displacement or the weight of a boat is important all I can say is that when things start to get rough the heavier the boat the better the ride will become. While greater displacement in a Full Displacement hull is easier to design and build (your not going any faster then displacement speed so you don't have to worry about horsepower) things become more interesting in a semi-displacement hull where you are searching for the best of both worlds (speed and performance).

Many people will argue that with semi-displacement hull boats you can never get it right. While there may be some level of merit with this argument we knew we still wanted a semi-displacement boat this time around for a little extra speed (7-9 knots) while at the same time not giving up a heavier well built boat. We were less concerned with top end speed which requires either lighter weight or extremely greater horsepower and fuel consumption. Just look around at the displacement of comparable semi-displacement boats with the same waterline or LOA and you will see another reason that our selection lead us to the Helmsman 38PH.

You can take this process one step further and look at larger semi-displacement boats like Flemming or the new Nordhavn Coastal Yachts and compare their weights to other boats in that range and start to see which boats are designed for serious cruising versus day boating.

It is important to note that I did not mention hull strength since todays materials allow for greater strength without extra weight. I'm focused on comfort in this post which is more likely achieved with displacement and slighter greater speeds but remaining below 10 knots. All this adds up to just another characteristic to look at when you are shopping for your next boat.

John

Hi John & Marie,
Just found this post for the first time,,, (we've been kinda hanging low for the past few weeks after Harley's passing). -- anyway, CONGRATULATIONS! Finally pulled the trigger eh? Well done,,, some wonderful & exciting times ahead for the both of you!

Is this the main thread for your newbuild?
What machinery do have you specc'ed for the man cave? (I understand you want a simpler boat this time)

Machinery

nemier said:

Hi John & Marie,
Just found this post for the first time,,, (we've been kinda hanging low for the past few weeks after Harley's passing). -- anyway, CONGRATULATIONS! Finally pulled the trigger eh? Well done,,, some wonderful & exciting times ahead for the both of you!

Is this the main thread for your newbuild?
What machinery do have you specc'ed for the man cave? (I understand you want a simpler boat this time)

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Andy, great to hear you found us. Yes, this will be the thread for the new boat until we figure out how to build a web-site. Amazing the issues I'm having (I need a little kid around the house who can tackle this for me).

Regarding the machinery we decided to go with Cummons diesel since many current owners have reported positive feedback. I tested two boats with the larger 380hp (same engine we optioned for instead of the standard 250hp) and I felt it was a good match. I really like the digital display with all the information. I noticed that PAE is also going with Cummons on their new 59 Coastal Pilot as well as other well known builders.

Since we are trying something different this time around and looking for a simpler boat we decided to hold off on the Northern Lights generator until we move the boat to the east coast in five years. We found in southern California we just never used the generators enough to keep them in good running condition. The new boat will be plumbed and wired for the future. We did select two reverse cycle A/C & heaters for occasional use while at the docks. We decided to hold off on stabilizers and plan to use hull design and speed to compensate as much as possible while watching the weather forecasts a little closer. This approach worked well for five years with our 22' Mako Center Console (we were a little younger then) and hope it holds true this time around. We took a hard look the SeaKeeper Gyro system but struggling to get my head around the concept, time for system to come on line (45 minutes) need to run the generator (possible to run off the inverter but would have limited run time using batteries thus you really need the generator running full time) and the space required in the engine room. If we really thought we needed stabilization we would lean towards Trac Active Fins but this boat is a little small (my opinion).

I'm working with Alcom Marine in Costa Mesa, CA on the electronics package and will likely go with the proven Furuno System,Simrad AP and Satellite TV.

It is a struggle (but fun) to build a simpler boat while still demanding the best and playing the balancing game of comfort versus system complexity versus safety. I spent a lot of time comparing N4050 (a relatively basic equipped Nordhavn) against N4061 (fully loaded) and concluded we didn't need or use many items on N4061 but we still paid for and needed to maintain them. Time will tell how this all will work out but so far we are very pleased and confident with our decision process.

When do you cast off for New Zealand?

John

Build Schedule - Week 3

Hello again, one aspect of a new build we enjoy is tracking progress and receiving photos from the yard. We plan to post (week by week) progress on our web-site (still under construction) for others to reference in case they decide to build a new boat and curious why it can take so long.
Its been 3 weeks (and one day) since we signed our contract and just received photos of the first few "construction" steps. With any new boat the builder will clean the molds then apply the outer barrier or Gelcoat. A nice clean white finish followed by the first few layers of fiberglass (there goes the nice white color). As with most boats the fiberglass is applied by hand in different directions for strength. We are still working with Scott at Waterline to obtain better pictures and will post them on the site soon. To be honest except to know the boat has started the pictures will not get most people excited. The real fun starts when you start to see the interior being built but we are long way from there.

We are hoping to see a Catia model or print soon of the salon layout with the new galley we designed using a simple Excel spreadsheet. This will be fun as we coordinate our design with yard and do our best to make it just perfect without having to fly over to China. If we were performing even more changes a trip to the yard would be required.

A few other items we have been working this week include identifying a boat yard in Long Beach, CA we can commission the boat once it arrives from China. While we would prefer to have to boat arrive in San Diego (our home port) sometimes you need to be flexible. As large as Long Beach port is (largest commercial port on the west) there is only one boat yard that supports pleasure boat commissioning. We may decide to move the boat 20 miles south to Newport Beach Harbor (largest pleasure boat harbor in California) and have electronics installed there.

That's about all for today.

John

John:


When I kept my boat in Long Beach several years ago I had a bottom job done at Marina Shipyard there. They used a funky railway lifting platform for hauling/launching but seemed like a full service yard that could do anything.

Wilmington should have yards that can do commissioning, maybe San Pedro as well. Also Sunset Aquatic in Huntington Harbor has a yard just behind them that looks like they could do commissioning.

But Newport Beach is nice, although it must be expensive. I know, I used to live there.

David

N4061 said:

Andy, great to hear you found us. Yes, this will be the thread for the new boat until we figure out how to build a web-site. Amazing the issues I'm having (I need a little kid around the house who can tackle this for me). ,,,,,,

It is a struggle (but fun) to build a simpler boat while still demanding the best and playing the balancing game of comfort versus system complexity versus safety. I spent a lot of time comparing N4050 (a relatively basic equipped Nordhavn) against N4061 (fully loaded) and concluded we didn't need or use many items on N4061 but we still paid for and needed to maintain them. Time will tell how this all will work out but so far we are very pleased and confident with our decision process.

When do you cast off for New Zealand?

John

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Hi John,
All sounds great!
I wish you guys a pleasant build, and that you have fun with it.
What an amazing project to be embarking on.
I look forward to reading every word of your build.

Our departure date for New Zealand has been set for March 31st, 2016

Electronics - So many options

This week we started to look more seriously at our options for electronics including a quick email to Alcom Marine in Costa Mesa, Ca who took care of our previous new builds. While our previous boats had Furuno systems and to be honest they performed well, I was intrigued by some of the other brands super nice displays. I also posted to the Nordhavn Owners group asking "what brands would people select today if they were going to build a new boat" and the response was overwhelming Furuno. Between our personal experiences and the endorsement of those who have traveled much further then us I think we will stay with Furuno.

Now the fun starts with selecting what I consider the "best value" for our boat and our planned journeys. Options like 3D display versus regular HD and open versus closed array radar all come into play when you start looking at the budget. One reassuring aspect of selecting a highly respected brand such as Furuno is that we should be safe with any model selection.

Deciding where to perform the installation also needs to coordinated since it impacts the cost of labor a little more then one might think. We are working with Scott on potential options and look forward to successful installation next spring. That's all for today.

John T.

We like Furuno as just a good, quality all around system.

The one aspect of a build we're happy to have not gone through is the commissioning. Our only build was a US builder and everything was installed in the factory.

You're very right about determining where to do the installs is a major consideration. I'd think it's quality of workmanship, price and time that would be part of the decision.

John T: Any pictures from the builder you can repost?

Build Photo's

Larry M said:

John T: Any pictures from the builder you can repost?

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Larry, we just received the first few pictures of the port & starboard hull molds starting lay-up. We will hold off posting anything another week or two until we receive some photos of the hull being removed from the molds to allow folks to see something that resembles a boat. From that point forward we plan to post photos periodically so people can follow the build process and allow for some level of boat building education along the way. It can be a fun process though at times feel like things move a little slow. Thanks

John

Thanks for the great posts; especially since we are considering a similar trawler, (also thinking San Diego) in the next year or so. Have not decided on a boat yet. Will likely go to the show in Seattle at the end of January.

jimdavi said:

Thanks for the great posts; especially since we are considering a similar trawler, (also thinking San Diego) in the next year or so. Have not decided on a boat yet. Will likely go to the show in Seattle at the end of January.

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Pay special attention to the process he went through. Before we ever had a boat built we went through similar, perhaps even more formal based on how I evaluated things in business. We did a written list of requirements. We then noted those things that were preferences vs. deal killers. We created spreadsheets on which we compared boats. We compared all the objective things like LOA and Beam and air draft and draft and speed and fuel usage at different speeds and many more but then we also gave our subjective thoughts. We even color coded good, ok, and bad. It's an emotional choice and some things are difficult to quantify but in forcing ourselves to write them down and rank them it became obvious.

It all was a matter of our tastes and choices. There's one boat too that at the very start of the process in late 2012 we considered and it stayed near the top all the way till recently. It was consistently in our top two choices and the others kept changing. The fact was that it met our needs well and yet we didn't want it. We could never pull the trigger and order it. We could figure out things we didn't feel great about on it but nothing to eliminate it. I still believe a new boat (same with a new used boat) should excite you. It just didn't and we realized how much it didn't when a different boat came into the picture that we really felt excited about.

If in the process it doesn't draw you to it, then it's not the one. It's like the man or woman you meet who is really perfect in every way but you don't feel any chemistry.

BandB said:

Pay special attention to the process he went through. Before we ever had a boat built we went through similar, perhaps even more formal based on how I evaluated things in business. We did a written list of requirements. We then noted those things that were preferences vs. deal killers. We created spreadsheets on which we compared boats. We compared all the objective things like LOA and Beam and air draft and draft and speed and fuel usage at different speeds and many more but then we also gave our subjective thoughts. We even color coded good, ok, and bad. It's an emotional choice and some things are difficult to quantify but in forcing ourselves to write them down and rank them it became obvious.

It all was a matter of our tastes and choices. There's one boat too that at the very start of the process in late 2012 we considered and it stayed near the top all the way till recently. It was consistently in our top two choices and the others kept changing. The fact was that it met our needs well and yet we didn't want it. We could never pull the trigger and order it. We could figure out things we didn't feel great about on it but nothing to eliminate it. I still believe a new boat (same with a new used boat) should excite you. It just didn't and we realized how much it didn't when a different boat came into the picture that we really felt excited about.

If in the process it doesn't draw you to it, then it's not the one. It's like the man or woman you meet who is really perfect in every way but you don't feel any chemistry.

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Exactly! Often it is said... "The boat choses you!" That is why I believe many, but maybe not all, boats have virtual waterborne souls.

It's great to follow your journey - Thanks! - Art

Art said:

Exactly! Often it is said... "The boat choses you!" That is why I believe many, but maybe not all, boats have virtual waterborne souls.

It's great to follow your journey - Thanks! - Art

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My additional comment is to try to spend as much time as possible on a sister ship before buying. When I bought the Helmsman 38 PH, I had already been on two older ones at the dock, gone out on one that a friend had and spent a few evenings having some libations to get the feel of the boat and then went on another friend's PH38 to see how he had made modifications. Of course I got everyones' opinions. I did the same for other brands of boats and was clear on my choice of the PH38.

Allan

A look at Pilothouses

Hello everyone, between technical difficulties with the computer and a little business travel I have not been able to post for a week. The following segment in our series of boat selection process is focused on Pilothouse trawlers. Hope you enjoy and as always we enjoy the feedback and different viewpoints.
Pilothouse Trawlers: Once we decided a full width salon (no side decks) trawler was beginning to make the most sense, our next decision would be “with or without a pilothouse”. To help us make this decision we returned to our list of Pro’s & Con’s based on our previous experiences:
Pro’s – dedicated area to navigate and operate the boat, large console for electronics, enhanced line of sight / viewing, easy access to exterior decks using side doors, independent lighting controls for night cruising, bunk or seating area for additional crew, additional living area.
Con’s, - often results in a smaller salon, compartmentalize feeling, increased structural height increases the boats windage area and may impact its A/B ratio, more expensive to build.
After considering the above and recalling time spent aboard our N35 we agreed the benefits a pilothouse offers easily outweigh the negatives as long as it is well designed. Our next step was to find a boat with a nicely designed pilothouse and one larger than our previous N40’s. As much as we enjoyed the functionality and views the N40 offered, we found the pilothouse small at times. We spend a lot of time including enjoying most meals in the pilothouse so a larger area, table and seating for 2 – 3 is top on our list. Attempting to find this in a boat under 40’ didn’t appear feasible and we knew our best chance would be a design which connects the salon and pilothouse in such a way the division was limited. Many smaller trawler designs offer access to the pilothouse from the side (port or starboard) providing for a long bench seat against the aft bulkhead. This is done to compensate for the narrowness of the pilothouse itself (N40, KK 39). One design we admired was the American Tug which used a center line approach from the salon providing for a lightly more “open” effect. This builder selected a port side access to the OSR forward providing for a large forward console in the Pilothouse. The downside we had with this particular design was the darkness and feeling of being isolated while in the OSR forward. We prefer to have a line of sight from the OSR through to the bright salon. We also felt the pilothouse remained a little narrow and did not offer a large table for dinning. It is important to note these are our personal observations and we recognize others will not agree.
When we first went aboard a Helmsman 38PH back in 2007 (different builder and name at the time) I became jealous that a boat considerably less money and slightly shorter than our N40 offered such a large and well-designed pilothouse. The L-Shaped sofa with table to port was something we both wished we had but knew we would have to step up to a N47 (well over $1M) before we could get something close. The captain’s seat to starboard with adjoining access door to the side deck worked well for me. By leaving the bulkhead behind the captains seat partially open to the salon provided two significant advantages over our N40; it provided visibility aft when backing into a slip and reduced the feeling of being compartmentalized with the view to the salon / galley. This can be important when you are on longer (8-12 hours) cruises and at the helm. We also liked the continuous centerline entryway from the salon to pilothouse to OSR which provides the perfect balance of an open feeling while still providing separate areas throughout the boat – what a great design. Forward of the port side large L-shaped sofa is an ample storage area and map table. If there is one downside to this design it would be slightly smaller electronics console to mount all the fun stuff. The console is large enough to install up to a single 16” multi-screen display, autopilot control along with one or two other pieces of electronics which is actually all the room we need so it should work well. There is also room above the forward windows for smaller electronics and gauges.
Another aspect of this pilothouse design we like is its “lower profile” which can only help the boats overall A/B ratio. Remember the lower the boat is to the water the less likely it will roll. As discussed earlier when you are building a semi-displacement hull boat without stabilization a lower A/B will be your friend especially when the wind and weather picks up. This lower profile also allows for the flybridge and aft deck (above the salon) to be closer to one level offering a much larger are to entertain and enjoy. We are very excited about this aspect of the boat since our N40 flybridge located above the pilothouse was very small and limited to two pedestal seat. The reversed rake windows reduce sunlight glare, help keep the room cooler and provide extra security when waves start coming over the bow and crashing down. Plus I like the commercial or seriousness look.
To enhance this already great design I asked Scott to move the shore power connections from the transom to mid ship just outside the pilothouse door. I find having these connections mid-ship make docking options a little easier and being close to the circuit breaker panel inside the pilothouse can be useful when you are trouble shooting issues that may arise and need to double check connections.
By now you likely concluded we pay a lot of attention to the pilothouse and is our favorite part of the part. Finding the layout the Helmsman 38PH offers is what sealed the deal for us. I don’t think there is another boat under 40’ that offers a pilothouse of this size anywhere. Hope you enjoyed. Next we will discuss the engine room.

John T