Comfort versus Simplicity

As we prepare for yet another trawler new build we find ourselves struggling with the level of comfort versus complexity we want / need on the boat. I'm sure I'm not alone when I look back at a life time of boating and think about the boats that provided the most enjoyment.

Funny thing for me is I keep going further back in time to when I was a teenager and running all over the Great South Bay of Long Island, NY is a 16' Tri-hull with a 50hp Evinrude that likely provides the greatest memories on the water. Fast forward ten years and 22' Mako CC on the west coast was another top of the list. While we enjoyed all three Nordhavn's they did come with a price.

Looking forward its hard to imagine another "open" boat since we do like the comfort of heating and A/C along with a hot shower and nice dinner aboard. But what is the compromise for spending weekends and weeks aboard with some serious coastal cruising that may include the ICW once retired.

While we have a good idea of what this compromise may be I thought it would be fun for others in a similar situation to share their thoughts. I recognize that everyone will have a different opinion and that's great, the intent is share opinions and have some fun.

Another factor we have to include is budget, we are not getting any younger and need to think about a boat we can afford in retirement. We do not have deep pockets so budget is important.

John

What is the level of comfort required? That is a great question.

Personally my original intention was a much lower level of fit-out. But I still have school aged children and a wife, so the pressure for higher levels of comfort is driven by them.

I don't mind the big household refrigerator and even the deep freeze, because with today's inverter technology both can be driven by solar panels. What I'm really trying to fight (or delay) is the air conditioning, because that means a generator. That's where the price tag really goes up.

So the compromise solution that we reached, which I believe is the most mature way to approach the subject, is to have the shipyard deliver the vessel extremely basic. We will fit it out with options as time goes on, develop a more luxurious interior and overall just decide what is needed through experience with the actual boat (versus based on past experience with other boats).

Put your checklist of needs and wants together in priority order.

Buy a five year old boat that checks most of your list, especially the top of the list.

Let some other pocket take the biggest depreciation hit, outfit the boat with electronics and gear, and iron out the post-manufacturing warranty issues.

If you are going to spend a weekend aboard then sacrificing comfort for simplicity might make sense.

If you are going to spend a long time aboard I think you will expect that a boat have all the comforts you expect out of your house.

Budget is a consideration, but if you are looking at yet another new build you are not even thinking budget, since a new boat will always cost much more than a previously cruised vessel.

My golden rule. It is how you are going to use the boat that suggests many of the compromises we must make in outfitting a boat. If you are going to keep the boat in a home marina and use it on weekends you can bring it back to its home slip and have it "repaired/maintained" during the workweek. If you are anchoring out for long periods of time, you are going to have to maintain and repair the boat while you are aboard. Getting parts, workers etc. is not something that can be done immediately if you are anchored in an isolated cove and not in a town. Thus the complexity/simplicity issue must be considered from the standpoint of keeping the boat livable when any system breaks (and it will). Integrated electronics will make the boat immovable if the display or motherboard goes down. Having critical AC only appliances such as a water maker or refrigeration forces you to have an operating generator or go to a marina. Same with having only one inverter if you have AC only appliances.

As mentioned all the choices in terms of equipment are in fact compromises. If you are going to cruise away from the home slip you must keep in mind that the boat still has to function when things start breaking.

I've reached the conclusion I need two boats. I love the comfort of my Hatteras. I miss the speed of my 28 Bayliner. I really miss the fuel economy and speed of my 21' Sanger. Older direct drive ski boats are simple fast enough, easy to maintain and getting as cheap as a dingy, so I bought one. They don't tow as well as an outboard but they can be left in the water for long periods without damage. A better choice might have been a 20' cuddy cabin with a four stroke outboard. Older fiberglass boats are getting cheap, pretty simple to get to snuff , and offer a lot of fun.

Many MUST have items can easily be simplified with a new build.

A choice like an RV toilet waste system or a marine complex nightmare is easy.

Also specifying a MARINE fuel tank, not just a box for fuel is easy.

Have it built of monel and with a good working inlet filter and hand bailable sump, and fuel problems go away forever.

Heat is as important as air cond , many smaller units will work for a winter, with zero electric.

I would prefer a propane range and fridge/freezer , a 20# bottle per month vs a noisemaker chugging 6 hours a day. EZ choice.

With no real high electric demands . solar can frequently be done with a modest house bank. Plan on 3 rainy days .

The systems you select for your lifestyle is key to weather you will be able to just enjoy , or simply be a repair slave .

Like Teak? purchase a Teak cutting board for the sink.

A 4 stroke out board can be repaired with a donor installed so cruising can continue.

In another thread you were talking about a smaller boat, one that was truckable. In the consideration of comfort versus simplicity, the second stateroom and 2nd head become a consideration. Had thought long and hard about converting a 35' Downeaster to a coastal cruiser with the ability to easily move it to the left coast. Came to the conclusion that 2 staterooms made all spaces impossibly small. To your question of simplicity, at your level of comfort based on previous vessels, the level of complexity greatly changes when you go from "sleeps two" to "sleeps four". For me, ultimately the needed for a decent 2nd stateroom moved me to a larger more complex vessel. Maybe my next vessel will be the smaller Downeaster that sleeps two and is easily truckable.

Ted

Would help if you defined comfort and simplicity. It seems that all boats start out the same then additional stuff is added. A bucket would work but a flush head is more comfortable. Other that overdoing electronics I just don't get what the difference would be. Surely you wont do without AC, windlass, heads, galley etc. So what do you leave out.
Fexas discussed going back to simpler times a lot and some of his thoughts must still be online. I don't however have any interest in going back to oil lamps, ice chests etc.


A hard top with real windows is simpler though more expensive IMO than vinyl and sunbrella.

I'm in more of a comfort state of mind.
Shopping now, but if and when I do purchase / rebuild it will be my retirement home and I expect the basic comforts, washer/dryer, dishwasher, heat & A/C etc etc. If I can't afford a boat that can offer these comforts, then I won't buy. I've lived on and traveled all over the world on boats for a living for the last 35 yrs, I have no intention of "camping out" in retirement.
I'm a marine engineer by trade, so having systems onboard or functionally refitting an older hull at purchase is no big deal if priced accordingly.

So many boats, 3 Nordhavns, yet another new build and we don't have deep pockets. OMG, where's my violin?

N4061 said:

We do not have deep pockets so budget is important.

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Really? (Insert incredulous look with me pointing to where you said you've owned 3 Nordhavn's.) That's subjective, isn't it?

There's a definite point at which a boat covers the basic needs of it's intended purpose, such as weekend getaways in protected waters vs ocean crossing passagemaker. After that point it becomes increasingly expensive when a boat goes beyond those basic requirements and the purchaser needs the boat to match their ego, or reflect their 'station in life'.

This is where subjectivity enters again, as ones persons comfortable could be perceived by another as an ostentatious display.

Just color me simple. I don't even like to use routes on a plotter. One carefully placed waypoint at a time thank you. I want reliable equipment as well.

High Wire said:

Just color me simple. I don't even like to use routes on a plotter. One carefully placed waypoint at a time thank you..

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(WHEW!) At least there's two of us on here.

hmason said:

So many boats, 3 Nordhavns, yet another new build and we don't have deep pockets. OMG, where's my violin?

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Here you go, you can borrow mine.

High Wire said:

Just color me simple. I don't even like to use routes on a plotter. One carefully placed waypoint at a time thank you. I want reliable equipment as well.

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Codger2 said:

(WHEW!) At least there's two of us on here.

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Make that 3....Simple is fine for me. All this NMEA and computer interface stuff seems to take away from the primary enjoyment here. Many here are Gadgett folks (and I am too) but when I go boating, I enjoy the simplicity... Me, the wife, the boat....Not a lot of "stuff" to detract from the experience...

MurrayM said:

Really? (Insert incredulous look with me pointing to where you said you've owned 3 Nordhavn's.) That's subjective, isn't it?

This is where subjectivity enters again, as ones persons comfortable could be perceived by another as an ostentatious display.

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I think Murray summed it up pretty well here.

In boating I think there are "percenters" just as there are in the overall economy. There are the "one percenters" who buy mega-yacts and the "five percenters" who buy new Nordhavns and Flemmings and Grand Banks, and so on down the line.

The people on down the line who I suspect make up the bulk of the participants in amateur boating forums like this one, live in the world of used and well-used boats. A $100k boat is outside the realm of reality for many of them.

While they may read and dream about something like a new Nordhavn-- not a dream I share as I place a high value on aesthetics in boat design-- their reality is much more down to earth.

What I find interesting is-- and this is a generality-- the folks with the smaller, older, more "basic" boats, power or sail, use them more and get more out of the experience than the folks with the big bucks boats. I have read or been told many tines by people who've graduated to a "five percenter" boat that of all the boats they've owned on their way up the ladder, their absolute favorite in terms of enjoyment and fondest boating memories is their first one. The old GB32 they had, or the old Tollycraft, or the well-used 26' Nordic Tug.

Does this mean they should go back to a boat like that? Of course not. But what I think it does mean is what Murray alludes to in his post: if one is a "one percenter" or a "ten percenter" or whatever and is seeking advice on how to spec one's next high-end newbuild, the best advice is likely to come from other folks in the same boat, so to speak, who are likely to share a similar sense of subjectivity when it comes to what's desirable in a boat.

Concepts like comfort, practicality, basic, simple, complex, luxurious, spacious and utilitarian are solely in the minds of the individual. To the fellow with the old Tollycraft 26 on the next dock, our ancient GB36 is a megayacht and he can't imagine owning anything cooler than that. To us, our ancient GB36, while not the "perfect boat" by any means, fills our needs and provides far more than its value and "status" in the enjoyment and experiences we get from it.

While it would be great to have a newer GB46 up here we have other endeavours we want to use the money for, plus after owning this boat for 17 years we have learned that we don't want to wash, wax and maintain the brightwork on one more inch of boat in the PNW.

So when I see a three-time Nordhavn owner asking an amateur boating forum for advice on how to spec out his upcoming new-build I'm afraid that I not only don't have a clue as to what suggestions I might offer that would even be relevant to what this person wants in a new boat, I don't even understand why the question is being asked as by now I would think someone with this boat ownership background would know exactly what he or she wants in a custom newbuild and is prepared to pay the price for it.

So I'm a little bit inclined to ask to borrow hmason's violin when he's done with it.

I think it's unfair to denegrate the OP for his post.... We are all at different stages of life, financial success (or otherwise). Were I to be in his position I may take the same approach. I'm not, but that's not to say I've been unhappy with my Boat choices or experiences. Marin is right...Most here dedicate a high percentage of their available funds to boating and most are not "rich".....For some this is a big stretch to be where they want to be. For others, it's pin money. I could sell the house and buy anything in the 40-50 foot range easily as many here have. It's just not practical right now. The Admiral and I have decided this little 28' is just PERFECT for where we are right now and how we intend to use it...and yes, It seems I do use the boat a lot more than the larger dock queens in our area....

Codger2 said:

(WHEW!) At least there's two of us on here.

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Don't know if I count. I plan out the routes with several waypoints in advance but do not tie in the autopilot. Each direction change is made manually.

Codger2 said:

(WHEW!) At least there's two of us on here.

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Guess I'm number 4 or 5.

Ted

N4061 said:

While we have a good idea of what this compromise may be I thought it would be fun for others in a similar situation to share their thoughts. I recognize that everyone will have a different opinion and that's great, the intent is share opinions and have some fun.

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Some of you get quite a bit of exercise jumping to conclusions. A few of you should probably visit the chiropractor now. The OP never said he didn't know what he wanted. He asked simply what you may want if starting with a blank sheet of paper as he is.

As we are about to be boat less similar to John it is a topic we are currently pondering too.

I agree.

CPseudonym said:

He asked simply what you may want if starting with a blank sheet of paper as he is.

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This is such dead-easy question I decided to ask my dog what he'd like in a boat. After rolling around in the grass laughing for awhile he said, "A boat that's totally paid for, a boat that never breaks, a boat that's everything I want it to be and a boat that does everything I want it to do."

However many boaters there are on the planet is how many potential answers to this question there are out there. As Murray said, it's a totally subjective subject. If the OP is actually interested in what a couple bazillion other boat owners have to say on the subject, I guess it's a fair question.

Personally, I'd be much more interested in what I wanted in a boat and then I'd be going about figuring out how to get it. What other people want in a boat is, to me and my wife, totally irrelevant.

hmason said:

So many boats, 3 Nordhavns, yet another new build and we don't have deep pockets. OMG, where's my violin?

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I am looking for mine too. Simple works for me, but that's all I can afford.

JohnP

N4061 said:

While we have a good idea of what this compromise may be I thought it would be fun for others in a similar situation to share their thoughts. I recognize that everyone will have a different opinion and that's great, the intent is share opinions and have some fun.

Click to expand...

As others have mentioned, not too many folks here are in the situation where they can, or have ever, done a new build. We tend to get what others have already put into the boat.

However, I fully understand the dilemma of comfort vs simplicity. I think a lot depends on who is going to be doing the maintenance on the boat. I have to do the maintenance on my own boat. So I place a premium on not having things break and having them easy to maintain.

On the simplicity side...
No exterior wood. My current boat is all stainless and plastic and I like it that way.

Manual head - complex stuff breaks. Simple stuff tends not to.

DC fridge and propane stove/oven. Why run a generator if you don't have to? My last boat had an inverter, my current one doesn't. In a larger power boat probably it is a necessary evil.

No AC - Easy for me as I don't live in a warm climate.

No flybridge - Half the number of controls/electronic screens to maintain

Electric outboard for dinghy - Never have to do maintenance on an outboard, never have to buy gasoline, incredibly lightweight and has its own solar charger. It won't go fast, but I don't boat to be in a hurry.

TV - My boat is not my home, I can watch TV at home. For me, boats are for more contemplative or social activities.

Watermaker - Not necessary with proper planning in my cruising area. Like air conditioning, I realize that this would be a necessity for many.

Comfort side
Diesel furnace - year round boating and they are pretty reliable.

Separate shower - maybe this is a simplicity factor as well as a wet head is a pain to keep fresh.

Bow thruster - I don't have one on my 40' sailboat and I wish I did. If I am going to move to a power boat, I think I want one.

Bay Pelican said:

Don't know if I count. I plan out the routes with several waypoints in advance but do not tie in the autopilot. Each direction change is made manually.

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Again....ditto! To me, the auto pilot is for maintaining a course, not for selecting it. I select the course manually.

CPseudonym said:

The OP never said he didn't know what he wanted. He asked simply what you may want if starting with a blank sheet of paper as he is.

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Couldn't agree more! It was and is a fair question.

Greetings,
Mr. dh. Nice overview. KISS (The last S is NOT stupid, it's Sailor). High on my list of simple is space. Space in the ER to check and service if necessary and space in the galley for some serious meal preparation. Space for storage. Sleeping accommodations can be minimal but again, enough space to store.

RT Firefly said:

Greetings,
Mr. dh. Nice overview. KISS (The last S is NOT stupid, it's Sailor). High on my list of simple is space. Space in the ER to check and service if necessary and space in the galley for some serious meal preparation. Space for storage. Sleeping accommodations can be minimal but again, enough space to store.

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Space in the ER meets both the simple and comfort criterion. Simple, because everything is easier and faster if you have enough room to work. Comfort, because after you are done with the maintenance more room to work mean less Advil to take when you are done.

OK, if I were starting with a blank piece of paper.

The stated mission is coastal cruising, and the ICW if I read the OP's criteria correctly.

For the main features I would want...

Speed. The boat would need to be able to cruise quickly if we want it to, so we can get to where we want to go during daylight hours.

Draft. A fairly shallow draft would be important to get to all the places you want to go.

Bridge clearance. It has to be squat enough to do the loop.

Water and fuel. It needs enough water for a few days and or a watermaker. Fuel range would be enough to make 600 miles or so, as just in case capacity.

Flying bridge, yes it would need one. A pilothouse as well for the inside helm.

A covered cockpit with swim step

A large salon for comfort, galley on the same level with stove, microwave, oven, trash smasher.

A large master stateroom, and a guest stateroom to stash stuff in.

Two heads, and a waste processing system for where thats legal.

Both heat and AC, probably a reverse cycle system would work.

Very quiet generator

entertainment, sat tv, internet.

There you go, the perfect coastal cruiser.