Paravane install

Jimbo2015 said:

that boom is way to high above the coach roof.

why

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I'm guessing height/liability reasons as there is a seating area between the mast and pilothouse.

Capt.Bill11 said:

Good points. And of course any system has its pros and cons.

But many powerboats these days are running their gensets almost 24/7. And paravanes just aren't practical for shallow water running like the ICW. And then there's the bridge thing.

I just think for most coastal cruisers paravanes aren't very practical.

Bu as always, YMMV.

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I've never run the ICW, so please forgive my ignorance, but is there really that much need for stabilization when running the ditch? You're pretty well protected the majority of the time, right? Seems like if you had vanes, you'd just stow them for the ICW.

Wayfarer said:

I've never run the ICW, so please forgive my ignorance, but is there really that much need for stabilization when running the ditch? You're pretty well protected the majority of the time, right? Seems like if you had vanes, you'd just stow them for the ICW.

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Exactly what I was thinking!

Wayfarer said:

I've never run the ICW, so please forgive my ignorance, but is there really that much need for stabilization when running the ditch? You're pretty well protected the majority of the time, right? Seems like if you had vanes, you'd just stow them for the ICW.

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Active stabilizers come in very handy in the IWC for dealing with wakes. I've lost track of how many boats I've called to arrange a slow pass and they'll come back to me with "Don't worry about it I've got my stabilizers on. So roll on by at speed.". And there are areas along the ICW and areas getting to or from the ICW that involve open water that can be shallow.

Plus paravanes add significantly to your air draft.

Don't get me wrong, they work and they are a good option for many. I'm just not sold on them as the best option for people who are going to spend the majority of their time cruising the ICW and other shallow waters.

And as I mentioned before, IMO a boat with active stabilizers is an easier sell at resale. And I think active stabilizers add more value to a boat.

But hey, what do I know? I've been wrong before.

Wayfarer said:

I've never run the ICW, so please forgive my ignorance, but is there really that much need for stabilization when running the ditch? You're pretty well protected the majority of the time, right? Seems like if you had vanes, you'd just stow them for the ICW.

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Oh, yeah, I wouldn't use them in the ICW. Just out in open water.

We did a Gulf of Mexico crossing from Clearwater to Panama City this summer, about 30 hours, and after that I realized for longer passages I needed some stabilization to make it comfortable. I really liked being out in open water and making the overnight passage and want to do more, but not with 20 degree rolls.

Capt.Bill11 said:

Active stabilizers come in very handy in the IWC for dealing with wakes. I've lost track of how many boats I've called to arrange a slow pass and they'll come back to me with "Don't worry about it I've got my stabilizers on. So roll on by at speed.". And there are areas along the ICW and areas getting to or from the ICW that involve open water that can be shallow.

Plus paravanes add significantly to your air draft.

Don't get me wrong, they work and they are a good option for many. I'm just not sold on them as the best option for people who are going to spend the majority of their time cruising the ICW and other shallow waters.

And as I mentioned before, IMO a boat with active stabilizers is an easier sell at resale. And I think active stabilizers add more value to a boat.

But hey, what do I know? I've been wrong before.

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I agree with you on the active fins, and my next boat will have probably have them, but for this boat it doesn't make sense.

Capt.Bill11 said:

Active stabilizers come in very handy in the IWC for dealing with wakes. I've lost track of how many boats I've called to arrange a slow pass and they'll come back to me with "Don't worry about it I've got my stabilizers on. So roll on by at speed.". And there are areas along the ICW and areas getting to or from the ICW that involve open water that can be shallow.

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Hm... I hadn't considered wakes. That makes sense.

cardude01 said:

Oh, yeah, I wouldn't use them in the ICW. Just out in open water.

We did a Gulf of Mexico crossing from Clearwater to Panama City this summer, about 30 hours, and after that I realized for longer passages I needed some stabilization to make it comfortable. I really liked being out in open water and making the overnight passage and want to do more, but not with 20 degree rolls.

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Completely understandable. 20 Degree rolls are fun for about 15 minutes, then it just becomes a chore.

Northern Spy said:

Have you contacted Island Packet? They may assist as they likely have a vested interest in their product.

The compression post or arch should be a no-brainer for them.

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Yeah you're probably right. I did talked to them about adding a sail but it was too much money IMO.

cardude01 said:

Yeah you're probably right. I did talked to then about adding a sail but it was too much money IMO.

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Do you quotes for the paravanes yet?

Capt.Bill11 said:

Do you quotes for the paravanes yet?

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Richard on Dauntless got his done for around $10000 so I'm shooting for that, but he already had a mast so mine could be more expensive.

Got it, thanks.

The tubing to build ours was around $1500. Then you have the brackets, stiffeners, rigging and installation. Ours complete with powder coating was $15K including the design.

Since you have a friend who's a fabricator and not charging you trade rates, you should be south of $10K depending on your fit and finish and how involved you are. The wild card is the design and that I wouldn't skip on. I know someone who had a rigger build theirs. He didn't take into account the compression or side loading and lifted the boat deck up. He also had 2 pole failures.

One way to look at the loads induced by paravanes is to work backwards from the fish. Beebe claims a paravane can exert a force of up to 10 pounds per square inch of area. Bijou will use the Kolstrand "medium" fish, which each weigh 30 pounds and have an area of 192 square inches. So a working load of 2000 pounds. Your towing line can be 3/16" amsteel with an average strength of 5400 lbs, but you want some spring in the system so 1/2" twisted nylon (above water) is about 5700 lbs min.

Depending on the precise geometry, the total mast compression resulting will be roughly 4.25 times the minimum breaking strength in your towing wire. So compression in each mast leg will be roughly 12,100 lbs. Land the mast onto an 8" square base, 12,100/64 sq inches = 190 psi. Not enough to crush anything.

Also not a load you (or I) want to put on the un-reinforced cabin side.

There will also be a shroud load of roughly 2.5 times the towing wire strength. The shroud load (side to side) is because the paravanes pull one at a time as the boat rolls.

I've got an idea for the mast base, sketch to follow......

I should add that I met up with a retired BC commercial fisherman early this summer. He did his own paravane install on a Selene. When I saw his setup, it looked really sharp and well done. Unfortunately both poles failed later during his voyages and he's back to square one with it. So even though you think you might know how to go about it in theory, the devil is in the details. I'd look for some professional help. FYI, my paravanes install is similar to Larry's.


Jim
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Speaking of designers!

What Tad, you didn't like my awesome drawing? ?

I can attest to the loading. We had a swivel fail in relatively calm water. Scared the crap out of us. Sounded like a gun shot. Didn't loose the fish. The retrieval system held on to it. The swivel was between the 1/2" nylon and the wire. Here are a few pictures.

Hey Larry. I'm kinda liking your "birds" better than mine, which are all-galvanized steel and are an accident waiting to happen. What material are the boards in your setup? The measurements would also be nice.


Jim
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JDCAVE said:

Hey Larry. I'm kinda liking your "birds" better than mine, which are all-galvanized steel and are an accident waiting to happen. What material are the boards in your setup? The measurements would also be nice.


Jim
Sent from my iPad using Trawler Forum

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Looks like Starboard (sheet plastic), plywood works well to. It's a lot gentler on the topsides and shins.....

Tad Roberts said:

Looks like Starboard (sheet plastic), plywood works well to. It's a lot gentler on the topsides and shins.....

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Marine ply that I painted white and yes they are gentler.

There're made by Stano Enterprises, Westport, WA 360.268.0342 The last one I bought was $187 which I bought from Englund Marine & Industrial Supply, Astoria OR 877.694.7164. You can also get them from Murray Pacific, 907.225.3135. Hopefully the numbers are still good. I would recommend the mediums at around 210 sq".

I know some commercial guys who changed the ply to HDPE. The marine ply after several years of soaking gets soft and this happens.

I don't get it. I spent hours doing this attractive, high-tech Shrimper/Paravane design for Bill's boat, and yet here he is on the Forum.... still looking for more ideas!

Larry M said:

Marine ply that I painted white and yes they are gentler.

There're made by Stano Enterprises, Westport, WA 360.268.0342 The last one I bought was $187 which I bought from Englund Marine & Industrial Supply, Astoria OR 877.694.7164. You can also get them from Murray Pacific, 907.225.3135. Hopefully the numbers are still good. I would recommend the mediums at around 210 sq".

I know some commercial guys who changed the ply to HDPE. The marine ply after several years of soaking gets soft and this happens.

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Yep.
Actually I paid only $125 from Englund, plus shipping.

I got the medium ones and have a set of the smaller ones, 2" smaller along base.
The smaller ones did NOT work well.

That was also a contributing factor in the pole failure.

The only mistake my rigger made was nut running the added stays back diem to the gunnel, but that was easily remedied, and I've had no issues since.

I'm even happier with the design now then before.

I can now retrieve them in under 4 minutes single handed.

My system uses 3/8" Amsteel and I'm using 3/16" for the retrieval system. Which is strong enough to provide another backup.

So this is sorta what I was thinking.....The mounting base for the a-frame mast carries down the cabin side. Both sails, jib and main, are on roller furlers, the one for the main sail being vertical.

The thing that's not clear from this sketch is that the spreaders are raked aft. In profile the stabi poles are aft of the mast. The reason for this is to get the shrouds to work as backstays as well. There is nothing strong to attach an aft shroud to except the rail, and if you do that you block the sidedeck. So the shrouds come down vertically (from the spreader tips) to the rail mounted chainplates.

Impressive, reasonable. Cleaner than I thought. Sails could be rigged out like the Coot. Bill: Now I'm really wondering how those flat spots at the each side of the windshield are constructed. I don't see much interference with the deck in this design other than a few more solid hand holds. The Hot Tub stays untouched. Awesome, Tad.

Nice now I want some . There is a 36 ' like mine in Texas with full sail but no para vanes . He went as far as the Turks and Caicos .

Tad: Looks great. Pretty salty for an IP.

Any estimate on the total sq' for the sails? And what's your best guess on the air clearance? Hobo's is 23' as a comparison.

Tad-- I like it! Just sent you an email.

About the air draft, I just realized my covered slip eave height is 18'. I sure like my covered slip.

Is an 18' air draft possible?

cardude01 said:

Is an 18' air draft possible?

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I'm not a pimple on a Tad's hind end but would be inclined to say while possible it perhaps wouldn't be as functional. Mark's Coot has I believe about 35' air draft and the sails are pretty small.

Beautiful design Tad.

Tad Roberts said:

So this is sorta what I was thinking.....The mounting base for the a-frame mast carries down the cabin side. Both sails, jib and main, are on roller furlers, the one for the main sail being vertical.

The thing that's not clear from this sketch is that the spreaders are raked aft. In profile the stabi poles are aft of the mast. The reason for this is to get the shrouds to work as backstays as well. There is nothing strong to attach an aft shroud to except the rail, and if you do that you block the sidedeck. So the shrouds come down vertically (from the spreader tips) to the rail mounted chainplates.

View attachment 44641

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After seeing this, your boat almost looks weird without the rigging. This design looks great.

The fish usually go overboard about 2/3 of the way aft.

On a sailing cutter the mast might be 1/2 way back .

So a rather unconventional rig will be required if the sail mast is to do double duty at raising / resting the outrigger poles..

Thanks to everyone for the pictures of what works for them. They are a big help.

Looking at the IP drawing this morning. 18' vertical would be fine for the stabilizer poles (as long as there is 18' out at the rail and not just on centerline). The poles would be about 15' long, which is about right. But the mast is only about 12' tall, pretty useless for any workable sails. At least in my opinion they would be too small to make them worth bothering with.

So there are three choices....
1) New taller shed.
2) Forget the sails.
3) Work out a folding system......

Gotta hit the road (ferry lineup).....