Insulation options behind hullliner

Hi all,I am redo-ing some hull-liner in my boat, and as it is beside the berth I thought I would insulate it. Initially I was going to use foam (or foam backed vinyl), but was counseled against this because of potential for degradation.
I would like to put in some sort of insulation because I tend to sleep half against the wall in a bed or a berth. A marine store near me is selling a product called reflectix: *http://www.reflectixinc.com/basepage.asp?Page=Double+Reflective+Insulation&PageIndex=622
It looks like a good option, and they say they have sold lots for marine use, but I cannot find anyone who has used in a marine application at my marina.
Thoughts or experience??
Thanks!
Aaron

Reflectix is written up in Ocean navigator mag, Nov/Dec 2010 (www.oceannavigator.com) in an article on "Controlling condensation below decks. Says an air space is required for it to work as designed, and without an air space it gives R1.1 per layer. 2 layers with air space R6.0 (www.reflectixinc.com). The author is in Seattle, so presumably could get the product there.

Thanks Keith, There is a place in Surrey that sells it, though they advised me to glue it down to the fibreglass hull, so I am not sure they actually know what they are talking about as that is at odds with the article you linked to.

Our boat does not have insulation but has ¼ teak veneer wood panels, with a 2 inch air space, which does not seem to be to cold, but the interior is kept at a constant 65 to 70+ degrees. **My wife made a bed quilt with matching throw pillows that in the winter I line up against the hull.***

You could added a solid self that*is staight, does not follow the wall and make it a self or something you could insulate*behind.* Being the wall usualy follow the boat*the space up high is usually wasted area.

Aaron, I think your boat came from the factory with what we call "monkey fur" glued to the hull sides in the bow.* You have probably already thought of this, but maybe you could glue styrofoam sheeting to the sides with water based adhesive.* Then cover it with an attractive, soft fabric.* The styrofoam is a little flexible, and you can help it bend a tighter radius by scoring it.

Another possible is to glue firring strips to the hull and spray foam or cellulose insulation into the cavity.* The squeegy it off to conform to the curves.

Just thinking out loud.

Ahh yes the original 'monkey fur' was still in the boat when I bought it. How many albino monkeys gave up their lives, oh the humanity!! All kidding aside there was surprisingly little problem with the 'fur' except that the adhesive was breaking down and it was sagging in spots.

I had initially thought to glue ribs on the hull, spray foam, then cover with 1/4" teak ply/veneer. Once I did some careful measurements though it became apparent that the hull shape is quite complex and bends in 2 axis, so while this is still an aesthetically appealing option it would be very expensive because I do not have enough wood skill to do the job so would have to get a carpenter in.

In the end I do not mind the look of modern monkey fur aka hull liner, but I feel like I need some sort of barrier behind it for vapor and insulation. That being said perhaps I am mistaken since the original monkey fur lasted 35 years, longer than I am likely to keep the boat, so perhaps I should just glue up the hull liner and be done with it....

Reinstalling monkey fir is probably the easiest option.* How about a really heavy berber carpet.

Styrofoam is its own vapor barrier.* Maybe a couple of thin layers scored and glued to each other would make those bends.* Then glue fabric or carpet to that.* Water based adhesive, of course.

Moonstruck wrote:

Reinstalling monkey fir is probably the easiest option.* How about a really heavy berber carpet.

Styrofoam is its own vapor barrier.* Maybe a couple of thin layers scored and glued to each other would make those bends.* Then glue fabric or carpet to that.* Water based adhesive, of course.

Click to expand...

I'm with Don on this one. Using 1/2" sheets of foam you could conform to any hull shape, and build up the layers to suit your needs. Then, I really like the Berber carpet idea if weight is not an object. Otherwise, the monkey fur or any other lighter fabric would be great.

*

I am going to have to give this styrofoam idea some consideration. I am guessing you mean closed cell foam? Should I score it in a diagonal pattern to maximize flex?

aaronupnorth wrote:

I am going to have to give this styrofoam idea some consideration. I am guessing you mean closed cell foam? Should I score it in a diagonal pattern to maximize flex?

Click to expand...

You can even score it in a grid pattern so that it can flex in 2 directions.* The unscored face to go to the inside of the bend.* Styrofoam is closed cell.* It is very subject to UV detiriation,* so it is great as long as kept from sun exposure.

If it is a tighter bend, put a few more scores in it.* It is not very expensive.* Pick up a piece and see how it works.

*

If you want plywood and lumber to bend the easiest is to cut groves in it to conform and then epoxy the groves to make ridged.* I had to rebuilt the Portuguese bridge which is curves and angles out of ¾ marine ply that does not bend. Screwed the ply in place and filled the grooves with epoxy.

Our state rooms walls are*straight up and down instead of conforming to the curve of the hull.* The 2X 2 are epoxy to the hull the veneer is nail to the 2 X 2.***

So you can follow the curve of the hull or not follow the curve of the hall.*

Sorry, double post


-- Edited by RT Firefly on Tuesday 11th of January 2011 03:37:16 PM

RT Firefly wrote:

Hiya,
** Mr. Moonstruck.* Not to be argumentative but shouldn't the SCORED side go toward the inside of the curve?

Click to expand...

*

Hiya,
* P/F.* Do you have ANY education at all, are basicaly stupid, english is not you're first language*or do you just*don't*give a ****?* Reading MOST of your posts, although you DID improve for a week or so is just painful.* "I had to rebuilt the ...",
** It's all in good fun when you make a spelling blooper we can joke about but buck up man/woman.

RT Firefly wrote:


RT Firefly wrote:

Hiya,
** Mr. Moonstruck.* Not to be argumentative but shouldn't the SCORED side go toward the inside of the curve?

Click to expand...

Putting the score to the inside radius of the curve will cause the scoring to compress.* If it is on the outside radius it cn open allowing the board to be more flexible.

I like Carey's ideal of thin layers sandwiched together.* If they are thin enough, little scoring would be necessary.

However, I know nothing about MTU's.

*



*

Aaron, we lined Delfin with 1/4" acoustical cork.* This eliminates condensation, provides a lot of sound deadening and is pretty impervious to deterioraton given the polyurethane binder they use to put the stuff together.* It's thin enough that whatever finish elements you want to use, this will be highly effective and also unobtrusive.* I still have a roll, and am just south of you in Mount Vernon.* If you want, I can provide it to you for whatever I paid for quite a lot at one time.* You can learn about acoustical cork at www.quietcork.com.

-- Edited by Delfin on Tuesday 11th of January 2011 07:42:07 PM

Delfin wrote:

Aaron, we lined Delfin with 1/4" acoustical cork.* This eliminates condensation, provides a lot of sound deadening and is pretty impervious to deterioraton given the polyurethane binder they use to put the stuff together.* It's thin enough that whatever finish elements you want to use, this will be highly effective and also unobtrusive.* I still have a roll, and am just south of you in Mount Vernon.* If you want, I can provide it to you for whatever I paid for quite a lot at one time.* You can learn about acoustical cork at www.quietcork.com.

-- Edited by Delfin on Tuesday 11th of January 2011 07:42:07 PM

Click to expand...

Cork is a great idea.* I will have to file that one away.* It also made me think of carpet padding.* Then cover it with fabric.* Better still carpet with a foam backing attached would be easier and worth exploring.

*


-- Edited by Moonstruck on Tuesday 11th of January 2011 07:45:57 PM

RT Firefly wrote:

Hiya,
* P/F.* Do you have ANY education at all, are basicaly stupid, english is not you're first language*or do you just*don't*give a ****?* Reading MOST of your posts, although you DID improve for a week or so is just painful.* "I had to rebuilt the ...",
** It's all in good fun when you make a spelling blooper we can joke about but buck up man/woman.

Click to expand...

That is a little harsh coming from a person the replies in one or two sentences, many times the reply do not relate, derail the discussion and we know little about. Who are you what authority education, experience knowledge do you have?* *You seem to read my replies in greater detail than others and make harsh ill mannered comment and show you are prejudges.****
*

*

Have you ran the spell checker on your reply it has two spelling errors?* *I have admitted spelling is not one of my strong points and the reason why I am an accountant/CFO.* What is your education, occupation and boat do you own?****


-- Edited by Phil Fill on Tuesday 11th of January 2011 08:49:01 PM

Phil, your usual grace and courtesy is answer enough for folks who would have more to offer on a site dedicated to belligerant alcoholics than one focused on people who actually own a trawler, or have practical experience with same.*

Don't waste your time answering.

Delfin wrote:

Phil, your usual grace and courtesy is answer enough for folks who would have more to offer on a site dedicated to belligerant alcoholics than one focused on people who actually own a trawler, or have practical experience with same.*

Don't waste your time answering.

Click to expand...

Agreed!!

*

Phil Fill wrote:

*
RT Firefly wrote:

Click to expand...

Hiya,
P/F.* Do you have ANY education at all, are basicaly stupid, english is not you're first language*or do you just*don't*give a ****?* Reading MOST of your posts, although you DID improve for a week or so is just painful.* "I had to rebuilt the ...",
It's all in good fun when you make a spelling blooper we can joke about but buck up man/woman.


That is a little harsh coming from a person the replies in one or two sentences, many times the reply do not relate, derail the discussion and we know little about. Who are you what authority education, experience knowledge do you have? You seem to read my replies in greater detail than others and make harsh ill mannered comment and show you are prejudges.*
*



Have you ran the spell checker on your reply it has two spelling errors?* I have admitted spelling is not one of my strong points and the reason why I am an accountant/CFO.What is your education, occupation and boat do you own?


-- Edited by Phil Fill on Tuesday 11th of January 2011 08:49:01 PM
*
PhilI'd like to apologize for the general intolerance you have to deal with from time to time on this site. Granted, your writing may leave something to be desired, but to berate you for your lack of writing and spelling skills, and especially in front of the whole forum, is cruel, and without excuse. We all bring different things to the table here, and need to honor each other and respect each other for whatever qualities we have, and forgive those who don't live up to our expectations.
To RTF and anyone else with an abhorrence for another persons lack of education, ability or intelligence, I would recommend you simply not read posts presented by the offender. Remember, that the first sign of insanity is continuing to do the same thing, while expecting different results. If you haven't liked his writing all this time, why do you read it? We all know that it is your opportunity to feel superior that brings you to pick on Phil, so maybe you could just save us all from your pain.
Back to you Phil. I know you don't speak the way that you write, so my suggestion to you if you'd like to improve your writing skills is first, to read and re-read every post before you hit send. I believe you will see and be able to correct many of your mistakes.
Cheers all



*

Hiya,
* Touche P/F.* You're right, I don't use spell checker but my syntax is usually OK.* I'm an unknown,* 50+ years a boater, prejudges????** Boat?* Who ever said I HAVE a boat?* I may be *in CHARGE of a boat.
** Mr. BCDC.* "Belligerent alcoholic...Practical experience with same"???** Do you know me?
** Mr. Carey.* Good advice.* Re-read posts before you hit send.

RT Firefly wrote:

Hiya,
P/F.* Do you have ANY education at all, are basicaly stupid, english is not you're first language*or do you just*don't*give a ****?* Reading MOST of your posts, although you DID improve for a week or so is just painful.* "I had to rebuilt the ...",
It's all in good fun when you make a spelling blooper we can joke about but buck up man/woman.

Click to expand...

What an ill-mannered, boorish statement to make about a fellow forum participant who has been a long time contributor and gentle soul here on the Trawler Forum. I, and I'm sure many others have learned a lot from Phil/Fill over the years from the early days of PMM until now. He has always been there to extend a welcoming hand to new members, and like FF has never had anything negative to say about fellow members.We all make spelling mistakes, and Phil/Fill has always stated that its not his strong suit. It just doesn't matter.


*

Hiya,
** Mr. Conrad.* OK, understandable reaction and I agree, WE have learned some from P/F BUT some of his advice (particularly on PMM has been down right dangerous) so I would* caution accepting ALL of his comments should be taken "with a grain of salt".
** As to spelling mistakes, I relish P/F's contributions.
** Maybe this should be moved to OTDE...

The thing that connects everyone on this forum is their interest, experience, and desire to learn more about boating. It's not a writer's forum. So to my way of thinking, as long as a forum participant can get their idea or advice or question or answer across in a manner the rest of us can decipher, that's all that's required here. The ability to diagram a sentence does not make up any percentage of your grade

-- Edited by Marin on Wednesday 12th of January 2011 10:46:58 AM

IF the hissy fits and drunk rage are over , insulation is the topic.

Thickness counts so the more the merrier.

My preference is for blue board , not as good (in theory) as better R valued stuff , but it does not absorb water.
The fancy stuff with R7 does absorb watter , so after a while it is a soggy mass with zero insulation value.

The hassle with blue board is IT BURNS ! , so it must be covered .

Cut into thin strips it is flexible enough to follow most hull contours and Titebond III can put it back together.

Insulation between the water tanks and the underside of the bed in the master cabin is a great testing ground for any product. Anything that will work there, should work elsewhere in the boat, where the interface may be the same or more forgiving. I have used blue styro in this application for the last 15+ years, and when I put in a better (thicker) mattress, I had it all out a year or two ago. I couldn't find any sign of condensation whatsoever. The blue styro was like new, as was the surrounding wood structure and the old mattress.
If you have room for blue styro between the hull and the liner, it will bend in one direction, cuts easily, glues easily, remains quietly in place without absorbing anything.

In deference to the drunken rage aspect of the thread I just drank a bottle of Cap'n Morgan's rum and flung handfuls of fibreglass pink dipped in glue around the hull until I was satisfied.....insulation and pink monkey fur all at once, right? It looked great when I was drunk, now ....not so sure...

In all seriousness I think I am going to go for a scored styrofoam covered with hull liner, seems like a good option and definitely a project that is within my realm of technical ability.
There were a lot of ideas that I liked, especially the quiet cork, and I am going to have to give that one some serious thought before finally making up my mind (especially since I've also torn out the floor in my boat and a cork underlayer seems like it would be nice!

As always thanks for the advice and entertainment!

Aaron

Here's some photos of the 1/4" cork as installed:

aaronupnorth wrote:

In deference to the drunken rage aspect of the thread I just drank a bottle of Cap'n Morgan's rum and flung handfuls of fibreglass pink dipped in glue around the hull until I was satisfied.....insulation and pink monkey fur all at once, right? It looked great when I was drunk, now ....not so sure...

In all seriousness I think I am going to go for a scored styrofoam covered with hull liner, seems like a good option and definitely a project that is within my realm of technical ability.
There were a lot of ideas that I liked, especially the quiet cork, and I am going to have to give that one some serious thought before finally making up my mind (especially since I've also torn out the floor in my boat and a cork underlayer seems like it would be nice!

As always thanks for the advice and entertainment!

Aaron

Click to expand...

Aaron, I know that I was the one that suggested the scored styrofoam, but=====after thinking about it, I believe I would look hard about using a foamed back carpeting.* I believe it would be the easiest to install, have some padding and insulation value.* You could later cover it with fabric if you can't find a color that works.

Does your Uniflite still have the aluminum trim around the inside of the windows?* Does it have trap storage under the V berth?

*