Blue Water Boat and the Caribbean

We've begun the serious looking at our next boat - the one we'll live on for 2 or 3 years, as we motor from FL all throughout the Caribbean, on no real schedule. Everyone seems to have a different opinion (imagine that!) about what makes a boat a "blue water boat", and about whether a "blue water boat" is even all that important for cruising from island to island in the Caribbean.

So, first, for those who have actually done it: if you're perfectly happy to wait for nicer weather, just how "blue water" does a boat need to be to cruise around the Bahamas, the VI and the rest of the Caribbean? Please give at least some explanation of your answer. ("At least 50 feet" - with no explanation, isn't going to help us find the right boat.)

I'll save the second question ("what makes a boat a 'blue water boat'?") until after this topic has been discussed. (If we don't need one, I don't need to know what one is!)

BTW, current boat is a 1974 Gulfstar Mk II Sundeck Trawler, which we've had for a little over a year, and have taken to the Bahamas 3 times for a total of about 6 weeks.

I haven't done it, but I've stayed at a Holiday Inn express! And I've already wobbled around in the Gulf enough to know that if it's a powerboat going past the Bahamas, I would stabilize it, or buy one with stabilizers already installed preferably. IMO. But I don't know squat.

The real people who have actually been there and done that will chime in eventually. ?

Island hopping the Caribbean in almost anything can be done...but if you aren't just planning on staying down there...get something that can take those trade wind seas safely and enough boat to add some sort of stabilization gear to it. Day after day of that Caribbean chop is tough.

psneeld said:

Island hopping the Caribbean in almost anything can be done...but if you aren't just planning on staying down there...get something that can take those trade wind seas safely and enough boat to add some sort of stabilization gear to it. Day after day of that Caribbean chop is tough.

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I know you're trying to be helpful, and I appreciate it! But this is the kind of thing we keep hearing - "get something that can take those tradewind seas safely" - that doesn't help when it comes to selecting a boat. We're trying to get a handle on the "something" in your statement - a clear idea of what is, and is not, "enough boat". (So... do you have more specifics, aside from the advice about stabilization?)

You can get by with a non-blue water boat in the Caribbean if you wait for weather. You can always get to a protected harbor in a day or two so you don't need fully self sufficient blue water capability.


But as a PP said you may not like the rolling and pitching (which is going to happen even if on a blue water boat) unless it is stabilized.


I think for Caribbean use I would prefer a stabilized Gulfstar to an unstabilized Nordhavn.


David

Ok i'll throw some suggestions out: 39 Krogen, N40, N43, N46, N47, Krogen 42. I would not do it w/o stabilization.

OK we spend at least four months a year going up and down the Eastern Caribbean. Don't know how different the Western Caribbean will be. Four easy issues for the Eastern Caribbean:
You will want a boat in which you will be very comfortable going out with 1.5 meter waves on the beam. That is good weather. I have seen lesser heights but those days are the exception.

You want to be able to live at anchor. There are far fewer marinas available then in North America. The bulk of the boats rarely see a marina. Definitely be able to supply your own power, and most boats have water makers.

Your ground tackle must be able to comfortably anchor in 35 feet of water and withstand 30+ kt winds. While there are shallower anchorages and the ability to hug the shore for shallow depths this is not always the case and hugging the shore has security issues.

Your dinghy must be easily launched, able to take you a mile in a decent amount of time and be easily lockable. Many of the cruising regulars in the Eastern Caribbean are lifting their dinghys out of the water each evening. All lock them everywhere.

The Eastern Caribbean is a sailboat world. The trawlers we see are Krogens and Nordhavns. (Ignoring boats larger than 60 feet). Most are still in the 40 to 52 ft range.

Now that Cuba seems to be opening up, you will be really be island hopping. Still need to be careful, but if you are doing this in retirement, what's the hurry. Once we finish the Loop we will see you down there!

Before Cuba was a possible stop I believe the biggest issue would be the run from the T&C Islands to the Dominican Republic (assuming you want to avoid Haiti).

The other question is do you continue up the coast of Central America after the ABC Islands or do you cut across to Jamaica? Obviously avoiding Venezuela.

Bay Pelican said:

OK we spend at least four months a year going up and down the Eastern Caribbean. Don't know how different the Western Caribbean will be. Four easy issues for the Eastern Caribbean:
<snip>
The Eastern Caribbean is a sailboat world. The trawlers we see are Krogens and Nordhavns. (Ignoring boats larger than 60 feet). Most are still in the 40 to 52 ft range.

Click to expand...

Now THAT'S the kind of specifics I was hoping for! Thanks so much.

menzies said:

Now that Cuba seems to be opening up, you will be really be island hopping. Still need to be careful, but if you are doing this in retirement, what's the hurry. Once we finish the Loop we will see you down there!

Before Cuba was a possible stop I believe the biggest issue would be the run from the T&C Islands to the Dominican Republic (assuming you want to avoid Haiti).

The other question is do you continue up the coast of Central America after the ABC Islands or do you cut across to Jamaica? Obviously avoiding Venezuela.

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Yes, we are doing this in retirement, and no, there's no hurry. (We're doing the Loop, too - but we call our version "The Great Southern Loop" - the navigation equipment on our boat won't go north of 28 degrees latitude.)

Cuba definitely opens up some possibilities, but we don't know if we'll try to visit there at the beginning (a year from now) or the end (3-4 years from now) of our trip.

RE: Central America - I guess we'll figure that out when we get to Venezuela!

BrianSmith said:

Yes, we are doing this in retirement, and no, there's no hurry. (We're doing the Loop, too - but we call our version "The Great Southern Loop" - the navigation equipment on our boat won't go north of 28 degrees latitude.)

Cuba definitely opens up some possibilities, but we don't know if we'll try to visit there at the beginning (a year from now) or the end (3-4 years from now) of our trip.

RE: Central America - I guess we'll figure that out when we get to Venezuela!

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Re you Nav equipment - huh? What is that all about. Is it that you don't have the cards?

Are you sure you want to "get to" Venezuela?

menzies said:

Re you Nav equipment - huh? What is that all about. Is it that you don't have the cards?

Are you sure you want to "get to" Venezuela?

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Sorry - that was a joke. We have no interest in going anywhere colder than where we are now, so we pretend the boat won't go north.

Not sure we want to get all the way "to" Venezuela - would probably stop short of there, before heading west or back north.

How about light blue? Or Blue water light?

I'm serious when saying that. It doesn't have to be a passagemaker but I want a boat that I know can handle a lot more than I ever hope or intend to give it. I also want one that will do it in decent comfort. It doesn't have to be a KK or Nordhavn or a 100' yacht. However, it can't be a 30' boat designed primarily for lake usage or coastal usage only on calm days. Many hybrids can do the job. A Grand Banks certainly can do it reasonably well. A lot of Sea Rays do it fine, range being the issue they first encounter. I do feel like on planing or semi-displacement size becomes more important than on displacement. For instance, I wouldn't want to do it in a 34' Carver. At 18,000 pounds a boat like that is going to get tossed around. Now would I do it in a 37 foot Sea Ray. But a 59' Sea Ray or a 72' Marquis is a different story.

Some boats that can do it are going to pound you to death too. I'll use the example of Pershing. Great boats. However, with Arneson drives not a good intermediate speed boat, so need to open it up and it's going to pound you. The same size Riva or Sunseeker will be smoother. I know this isn't a Pershing type crowd but just an example.

I also think there is a size below which even a full displacement trawler type becomes a bit small. For instance, I wouldn't do it in a 40' Nordhavn. I personally would want stabilizers on any Nordhavn I was taking into the ocean. I personally wouldn't do it in a 26' Nordic Tug. Even the 36' American Tug comes up a little "short" in my opinion.

I want to feel safe in 8-12' seas and reasonably comfortable in 6'. Then if I decide to only go out in 3-4' that's fine. But there are no guarantees they'll stay that way. Just crossing to and from the Bahamas, I've seen the change in the Gulf Stream make things pretty miserable and scare people. Last time I was returning in somewhat uncomfortable conditions I ran across several boats crossing at the same time. I saw a 76' boat of a fairly well known brand that would apparently keep slowing down to a crawl (or less) just to let their passengers regain their wits. I saw a 47' Sea Ray go smoothly by them at speed. I saw a smaller tug (I don't remember Nordic or American if I even knew at the time) that was proceeding at displacement speed but really being tossed and making very little headway. They were in for a long, long night.

Many of the old , out of favor, sport fish have very good sea going ability.

But they don't "look" trawlery.

Another factor to consider for the Eastern Caribbean is that the price of diesel is much higher than in the United States. The exception being Venezuela which has its own issues for American boats.

With any island hopping adventure such as that it is often the scheduling and comfort factor that are the deciding factors.


Having few months gives you a fair amount of flexibility to wait out the worst of the weather, so scheduling around the worst of the weather shouldn't be a problem.


I would say the limiting factor would be how much motion do you want to put up with.
Can you and your passengers put up with plenty of rock and roll and laugh it off, or do you suffer from sea sickness easily?
Is your boat set up with every thing bolted down solidly or do you sliding furniture and a rack of crystal champagne glasses?
I'd guess that your current Gulfstar would get you there and back, but you'd want an iron clad stomach or a set of paravanes.


In summary - its more than a question of which boat, but how is that boat set up, and what comfort level do you want.

Brian, you do realize that to go from your current boat to something more comfortable in a seaway that you will need to move to a passagemaker style boat.

You already have a +40' Coastal Cruiser style boat I think. Here is a photo from yachtworld. is this representative of your current boat?



In order to see significant change from that you will need to go to a full displacement stabilized boat.

Something like a Defever 49, or a Hatteras LRC, or KK42

My question is why not try it in your current boat, if you like it and have it outfitted the way you want it. Then when you see what you are up against you can always "trade up" in capabilities. Your current boat will make it safely, you'll just need to wait for weather more often than a more rough water capable boat.

When anchor'd, they all roll unless you have an anchor stabilizing system, and that's relative new and expensive technology.

FF said:

Many of the old , out of favor, sport fish have very good sea going ability.

But they don't "look" trawlery.

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Yeah but their stability comes from speed. They can get pretty rolly at trawler speeds.

They would not be a bad choice if you add stabilizers or a gyro if you want to keep the option of high speed. But then you are hauling around big old high HP diesels at trawlers speeds most of the time.

ksanders said:

When anchor'd, they all roll unless you have an anchor stabilizing system, and that's relative new and expensive technology.

Click to expand...

No need to go to all that expense, passive at anchor stabilizers work very well for boats like that.

Capt.Bill11 said:

No need to go to all that expense, passive at anchor stabilizers work very well for boats like that.

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I know a couple of boats that use Forespar "flopper stoppers". We used the orange "Mexican" hat type when we had the sailboat. They worked great. Definitely worth the effort to deploy them.

Roll Stabilizer Flopper Stopper

ksanders said:

Brian, you do realize that to go from your current boat to something more comfortable in a seaway that you will need to move to a passagemaker style boat.

In order to see significant change from that you will need to go to a full displacement stabilized boat.

.

Click to expand...

There are many boats that are not full displacement but can handle those seas quite well. You mentioned a Hatteras LRC, well Hatteras doesn't make LRC's now but their boats all handle seas well. A good SF is remarkable for it's sea handling ability and while you're rocking along in the rough sea at 6 knots they may go by you riding quite decently at 20-25 knots. Now, full displacement may be his choice, but it is not the only choice for comfort in a seaway.

If I was contemplating such a cruise, my first choice would be Larry M's set-up of the KK42 with paravanes. I'm basing my choice on safety, economy and cost of boat. The closer you get to the simple systems that sail boaters use the better off you gonna be!

The challenge is guys that the OP already has a 43' "trawler" abet a non passagemaker type.

In order for him to see a significant difference in sea keeping performance...he is going to have to make a significant change in either hull form, or a significant change in stabilization equipment, or both.

Question:

Would a powercat like a PDQ 34's extra speed overcome the problem with beam seas encountered in the Caribbean, or would that be a snap roll disaster?

Also, how much head sea action do you see in the Caribbean, and is it short period swell? I could see the PDQ hobby horsing quite a bit which doesn't sound fun. In big, short period swell my 36' LWL boat gets the hobby horse effect going, and while it doesn't seem unsafe it got old after 6-7 hours.

I think a Gulf Star, especially with flopper stoppers, could do the trip very well. When you are in the islands you are already in paradise. So, attack it with the philosophy that we are in paradise. We may as well be here as anywhere else. That way waiting for weather is just a routine thing. I think it is a marvelous way to cruise.

OK, now we're getting somewhere! Let me answer a few questions that have been raised, then ask a few of my own based on some things that have been said.

BTW, I know I'm asking a LOT - but please feel free to weigh in on just some, or even just one, of my questions. All info will be useful!

Answers to Questions Posed:
1. Our current boat (which is just like the photo posted by ksanders) was purchased as a "practice boat", and has served that purpose incredibly well. It was inexpensive to buy, is inexpensive to operate, has introduced us to "big boats" and living aboard (longest stretch - 20 nights - and we weren't even close to being ready to get back to the dirt home at the end), and ocean crossings (if "FL to Bahamas" counts), and many, many other things we wanted to learn before embarking on our Big Adventure (BA). But it was never intended to be the boat for the BA:

- It's smaller than we want as our full-time home for 2-3 years. We've been on enough boats to have a feeling that a 49 or larger is going to be desired.

- I'm the mechanic, and I want a real engine room, that isn't accessed by lifting the sole in the salon, and that has at least a foot of clearance above the engine(s).

- With the "aft cabin" design, it's terrible for scuba diving, and not much better for snorkeling - both of which we plan to do a LOT of.

- It's lacking an ice maker, a water maker and solar panels, all of which are things we think we want (we prefer to anchor or moor), and which wouldn't fit well on this boat.

2. We're perfectly happy going at trawler speeds all the time. If we're going to go as far as we think we will in 2-3 years, fuel economy is going to be important. The idea of getting less than 1nm/gallon is not attractive to us (but honestly, I don't know if that's realistic, given the other things we want). Two big turbocharged engines, making 400+ HP each, seems like way more than we want, and seems unlikely to yield the fuel economy, even at trawler speeds, that we're interested in. (But is that true? Practically no listings on YachtWorld give fuel economy numbers, so we're very much in the dark on this topic.)

3. An older boat is fine. Ours is a 1974, and is in great shape. We've looked at a number of boats from the '80's and '90's that are in great shape, and they would be OK.

4. Similarly, we're not much concerned about looks. As we've thought many times, when you're ON the boat, you can't tell what it looks like! (About the only style we don't like is the "Euro-styling" of the SeaRays, Azimuts, etc.) We're far more concerned about livable / usable space, especially outside space - big aft deck ("the coffee deck"), nice sized fly bridge, great swim platform and/or cockpit.

5. We don't mind rocking and rolling a bit if it can't be avoided. On two of our return trips from the Bahamas, it's been uncomfortably "rolly" on the fly bridge for parts of the trip, so we've come down to the lower helm station to ride out the rough patches. We don't want that to be the norm, but if it happens once in a while, neither of us will be sick or even unhappy about it. (And I just always assume that all of our "stuff" will be secured before any crossing.)

6. A fly bridge, big and comfortable enough for the pilot and 3 others, is very important, as we much prefer driving from outside.

7. An internal helm station is important, but we don't care if it's in a separate pilot house, or just takes up some space at the front of the living space. We don't want to forfeit a lot of space to a dedicated pilot house, as we don't plan on doing much travel at night or in crappy weather.

Questions:
1. It seems the total weight of the boat has a lot to do with its seaworthiness, which makes perfect sense. But how much is enough? Obviously, it's going to be different for a longer boat than a shorter boat. So is there some kind of ratio of tonnage per foot of LOA that would qualify a boat as a "coastal cruiser" vs. an "island hopper" vs. a "true blue water passagemaker"?

2. Stabilzation under way: the choices seem to be paravanes or a gyro-based system with the big "fins". The former add some significant outside structure that seems like it might be in the way at times, the latter seems like it would be very expensive to add (so, either buy a boat that already has it, or go with paravanes if the boat isn't stabilized when purchased). That sound about right? What else is important about stabilization?

3. Stabilization under way, Part II: are there any boats in the 50' - 60' range that are so stable from a design / weight standpoint that they really don't need any kind of stabilization system?

4. Stabilization at rest: all the variations of the "flopper stopper" concept seem to do a pretty decent job - and they would use the same basic booms / poles as paravanes, right? Is that another advantage of paravanes? (In addition to being less expensive than a gyro-based system.)

5. Catamarans? We absolutely love the living space on some cats we've been on, like the Endeavor Cat 48. Fuel economy is great, and they can get up and go if needed. No real engine room, but some have more than adequate space to work on the engines and all the other systems. The real issue seems to be, are they OK to take on such a big trip, or better suited for coastal cruising? (I know the single / mono hull question is like religion for some people, but I'm interested in facts, or at least first hand experience with cats in bigger water, please.)

Until we're comfortable with all of the above issues, I don't think we can start to zero in on individual boats. No point falling in love with "My Last Boat II" if she's simply too light to ever be comfortable in 4' seas, right? But, other bullet points that might be important even in the early going include:

- 2 cabins are the minimum. A 3rd is fine, but absolutely not necessary.
- 1 engine is OK, with the right boat and engine, and some kind of "get home" system.
- Don't care about having a pilot house, and in fact, prefer not to have one if it takes up too much of the interior living space. But won't rule out a PH design.
- Would love to have the salon and aft deck on the same level, but that's not critical.
- Would prefer the galley and salon on the same deck, but a down galley would be OK. (The Gulfstar has that, and we don't mind it too much.)

Whew! That's a lot! Thanks to all for whatever you care to contribute.

ragin cajun said:

If I was contemplating such a cruise, my first choice would be Larry M's set-up of the KK42 with paravanes. I'm basing my choice on safety, economy and cost of boat. The closer you get to the simple systems that sail boaters use the better off you gonna be!

Click to expand...

We love the KK's quality and economy. The 42 is probably too small for our home for 2-3 years, and the 48 seems to be the next step up. Those are at the very, very upper end (maybe above it, actually) of our price range, unfortunately. Also, KK likes to devote more space for a pilot house than we'd prefer, although we certainly wouldn't rule one out because of that.

I am watching this thread with great interest. We just bought our "practice boat", an Ocean Alexander 38, and will spend the next 3 or 4 years "practicing". Then in retirement off to the Caribbean and perhaps beyond (but no ocean crossings). So I have pretty much all the same questions rolling around in my head as Brian does.

I'll add that I think a Selene will do what you are asking for and fit your criteria well:
Full displacement
Large Flybridge
2 or 3 cabins
most are 1 engine (w/ a get home)
Come with Active stabilization
"real" engine room (by your definition)
Most come with ice makers
big aft deck
nice swim platform
galley up design
Fuel burn on our Selene 53 (60ft LOA)
3.5 gal/hr at 1400 RPM 6-6.5 kts
6.5 gal/hr at 1800 RPM 8 kts

...but no ours isn't for sale

BrianSmith said:

2. We're perfectly happy going at trawler speeds all the time. If we're going to go as far as we think we will in 2-3 years, fuel economy is going to be important. The idea of getting less than 1nm/gallon is not attractive to us (but honestly, I don't know if that's realistic, given the other things we want). Two big turbocharged engines, making 400+ HP each, seems like way more than we want, and seems unlikely to yield the fuel economy, even at trawler speeds, that we're interested in. (But is that true? Practically no listings on YachtWorld give fuel economy numbers, so we're very much in the dark on this topic.)

5. We don't mind rocking and rolling a bit if it can't be avoided. On two of our return trips from the Bahamas, it's been uncomfortably "rolly" on the fly bridge for parts of the trip, so we've come down to the lower helm station to ride out the rough patches. We don't want that to be the norm, but if it happens once in a while, neither of us will be sick or even unhappy about it. (And I just always assume that all of our "stuff" will be secured before any crossing.)

6. A fly bridge, big and comfortable enough for the pilot and 3 others, is very important, as we much prefer driving from outside.

7. An internal helm station is important, but we don't care if it's in a separate pilot house, or just takes up some space at the front of the living space. We don't want to forfeit a lot of space to a dedicated pilot house, as we don't plan on doing much travel at night or in crappy weather.

Questions:
1. It seems the total weight of the boat has a lot to do with its seaworthiness, which makes perfect sense. But how much is enough? Obviously, it's going to be different for a longer boat than a shorter boat. So is there some kind of ratio of tonnage per foot of LOA that would qualify a boat as a "coastal cruiser" vs. an "island hopper" vs. a "true blue water passagemaker"?

2. Stabilzation under way: the choices seem to be paravanes or a gyro-based system with the big "fins". The former add some significant outside structure that seems like it might be in the way at times, the latter seems like it would be very expensive to add (so, either buy a boat that already has it, or go with paravanes if the boat isn't stabilized when purchased). That sound about right? What else is important about stabilization?

5. Catamarans? We absolutely love the living space on some cats we've been on, like the Endeavor Cat 48. Fuel economy is great, and they can get up and go if needed. No real engine room, but some have more than adequate space to work on the engines and all the other systems. The real issue seems to be, are they OK to take on such a big trip, or better suited for coastal cruising? (I know the single / mono hull question is like religion for some people, but I'm interested in facts, or at least first hand experience with cats in bigger water, please.)

Click to expand...

A good place to get fuel usage is to find boat tests on new boats. As to whether you can get greater than 1 nm/gallon on larger twins, the answer is yes. We can run twin 1200 hp MTU's at 750 rpm and get 8 knots at 6 gallons per hour. But who would do that and why? To have extra power over what you need is fine, but in moderation to what you'll use.

As to rocking and rolling, the more you're on the boat, the more annoying it will be. But flopper stoppers and gyro's aren't the only choices. There are the traditional systems like Naiad.

As to catamarans, something like the PDQ 34 would just be too small for the job. But get into something like the Horizon PC 52 or 60 and they are pretty good rough water boats. Worth at least looking at.

You are so doing this the right way in trying to really determine your requirements before trying to identify boats.