Documentation Dysfunction – Serious Issue for Buyers and Sellers

It is illegal to operate a U.S. Documented vessel without a current and valid Certificate of Documentation on board. Fines for violation are significant, up to $10,000 per day.

When a vessel is sold, the certificate of documentation becomes invalid immediately upon signing the bill of sale. It is then illegal to operate the vessel until the National Vessel Documentation Center issues a new document and it is physically aboard the vessel. This fact, verified by email from a lawyer at the National Vessel Documentation Center (NVDC), is being widely ignored by both the boating public and, evidently, US Coast Guard boarding officers. Neither I nor anyone I know have heard of someone being fined for following the advice our broker gave us which is to just carry a copy of the bill of sale and the documentation application.

I was assured by both the NVDC lawyer and the chief enforcement officer for the district where our new boat is located that this is indeed a violation and, at the discretion of the boarding officer, a person operating as our broker advised could face the very stiff fines. I asked the USCG district enforcement officer how I could legally move our new boat which was leaking and needed to be hauled at a shipyard. He admitted that he didn't have an answer other than to wait for the new certificate to arrive. He said that, if it was really necessary, to just do as the broker suggested, break the law, and “probably” we wouldn't have a problem. Well, as both a former pilot and as one who spent much of his career consulting to help vessel operators operate legally, “probably” just doesn't cut it with me. Besides, I am now on record as having personally been told that operation of our boat is illegal so I can't use the “Huh?” defense if boarded. Our vessel is currently hauled out after breaking the law in a quick 200 yard dash across the channel from its slip to a shipyard.

Meanwhile, the NVDC is currently processing applications from April. They have resurrected the concept of Temporary Certificates of Documentation which can be issued by word processor and are promising a three week turn around for those. Three weeks can still be a long time for a boat to be legally unable to operate after a sale.

I submitted our application on August 4 by email to the link provided on the NVDC web site. About a week later, I had not received the promised automated response so I inquired by email and was told they had not received anything from me. I send a second copy to their webmaster for him to route to the proper person. This was on August 12 th. I inquired again today, August 20 th, and was told that the webmaster never saw my second email (I checked and it went EXACTLY to the address he replied from). No one has any idea where my application is.

I just sent a third copy to the NVDC to a new email address the webmaster gave me. I sent the one on August 4 by clicking the proper link on the NVDC web site. It turns out that they eliminated one letter from the email address but never changed the website! The system didn't send out any bounce back notice, they just stopped looking at the old email address, even when trying to find applications that had gone missing.

So, we now start out at the back of the line waiting for a temporary certificate, unable to freely use the boat we paid for, and facing another month of storage fees. I understand from my contacts that NVDC personnel are surrounded by boxes of applications that haven't even been opened yet. The system has completely broken down and the Coast Guard is evidently unwilling to issue the simple documents I have seen used many times over my career which are intended to deal with issues like this. A memo called a “NVIC” (Navigation and Vessel Inspection Circular) could advise boarding officers how their discretion should be exercised and formalize the ad hoc procedure that nearly everyone who buys a documented vessel is following because there is simply no way for the boat market to function if every vessel sold is immediately stuck at it dock for weeks and months while the NVDC gets around to the paperwork.

I am posting this here and on Sailboatowners.com. Feel free to repost to other forums.

Rodger

Go use your boat, and enjoy it. Unless you are leaving US waters you are not going to have a problem.

The USCG knows they are behind. Have your bill of sale, and every form you sent the documentation folks.

Nothing you can do about it, and getting mad at the system will only raise your blood pressure.

There are 47 gazzilion laws on the books. If you simply take a breath, you are probably breaking a few of them.

Second the above. Carry with you copies of your transfer paperwork and you will be fine. Boarding officers are not going to give you any trouble.

ksanders said:

Go use your boat, and enjoy it.

Click to expand...

Well, yes. I may view this issue differently as a result of a big part of my career being spent consulting to operators of USCG inspected vessels and also as a pilot observing the way FAA inspectors work.

It only takes one young turk trying to make a name for himself or one boarding officer having a bad day to ruin your whole day. I've seen over and over that, when a line officer makes a dumb discretion call, the SOP of both the Coast Guard and the FAA is to back him up all the way. I've fought these things all the way up to headquarters on behalf of clients.

Sure, the "Coast Guard" knows but it's only the opinion of the guy who boards your boat that counts.

Agreed..for simple use...they would be crazy to push action against an individual that legally purchased a legally and clear documented vessel. It would show a flawed system.

Now other actions such as government leins for environmental issues, taxes, etc are a different story.

I have never heard of a new boat owner having an issue moving their boat prior to new documentation showing up.....in fact I am not sure if I ever heard of someone waiting for it.

Roger Long said:

Well, yes. I may view this issue differently as a result of a big part of my career being spent consulting to operators of USCG inspected vessels and also as a pilot observing the way FAA inspectors work.

It only takes one young turk trying to make a name for himself or one boarding officer having a bad day to ruin your whole day. I've seen over and over that, when a line officer makes a dumb discretion call, the SOP of both the Coast Guard and the FAA is to back him up all the way. I've fought these things all the way up to headquarters on behalf of clients.

Sure, the "Coast Guard" knows but it's only the opinion of the guy who boards your boat that counts.

Click to expand...

While a boarding officer gets a lot of latitude...a good number of seniors would oversight the "seizure" of a vessel for a documentation issue that is pretty easy to verify was legal. Now they may tie you up for 24 hours till some basics are resolved...but removing you from your vessel would as I earlier posted...would be pretty drastic.

Ski in NC said:

If you simply take a breath, you are probably breaking a few (laws).

Click to expand...

There is actually a book about that titiled IIFC "Three Felonies as Day", the number of times the average citizen does something in our overly legalistic society that they could be jailed for.

As a (former) pilot and now operator of a vessel using public waterways, being legal is part of the game for me. It really irritates me that the USCG can't find a way for me to do that.

Roger Long said:

It is illegal to operate a U.S. Documented vessel without a current and valid Certificate of Documentation on board. Fines for violation are significant, up to $10,000 per day.

When a vessel is sold, the certificate of documentation becomes invalid immediately upon signing the bill of sale. It is then illegal to operate the vessel until the National Vessel Documentation Center issues a new document and it is physically aboard the vessel.

Click to expand...

Gee, our boat was documented at one time but from what I can tell, it has been undocumented for 20 years and several owners nor did the seller ever represent it had been documented at one time. So you are saying the law says we could be fined for operating our boat?

If you are in NY, you need to get your boat registered with the DMV and get the hull stickers. If you get stopped, I would think that your NYS registration would be sufficient to make any LEO or Coastie happy.

Roger:


This situation has been going on for years, maybe decades and isn't going to change. If you are not willing to take the very minor risk of operating the boat with copies of the old document, bill of sale, application for a new document, etc in your possession, you can always state register and be perfectly legal, all in the same day.


When I was a broker in Annapolis, we would routinely state register any boat that we sold while waiting for the federal document. Once you got the federal document you notified the state which then gave you a different sticker for your boat which all it did was prove you paid their sales tax. Since sales tax was due whether it was state registered or federally documented the only extra cost was for the state registrations which wasn't a big deal, maybe $50. Other states may charge more.


David

ronlord said:

If you are in NY, you need to get your boat registered with the DMV and get the hull stickers. If you get stopped, I would think that your NYS registration would be sufficient to make any LEO or Coastie happy.

Click to expand...

Somewhat similar in WA State - all of the LE folks on the water scan for current stickers. NOT having them is asking for trouble.

So documented boats don't have 3" reg numbers on exterior - do you? If you do then your are not claiming to be a documented vessel (notwithstanding the OP's post). If you do not have those reg numbers then you are claiming what exactly?

Edit: The OP is no longer a documented vessel. Put state registration numbers on it and operate like every other undocumented vessel until it becomes documented again.

As far as the registration goes, it depends on the state as far as documented vessels. My vessel is documented, but I still had to register in Texas. Being documented, I don't have to stick the TX registration numbers on the hull, but I DO have to show the current year registration sticker. I'm sure registering in NY would be equally legal and allow you to operate your boat in any US waters without fear of repercussions.

wyoboater said:

As far as the registration goes, it depends on the state as far as documented vessels. My vessel is documented, but I still had to register in Texas. Being documented, I don't have to stick the TX registration numbers on the hull, but I DO have to show the current year registration sticker. I'm sure registering in NY would be equally legal and allow you to operate your boat in any US waters without fear of repercussions.

Click to expand...

NY has the same requirements. Stickers with no numbers on the hull.

Donsan said:

So you are saying the law says we could be fined for operating our boat?

Click to expand...

No, documentation has to be renewed every year. Technically, someone probably should have filed the paperwork at sometime to undocument the boat but, after 20 years I doubt you have anything to worry about.

I doubt you have anything to worry about motoring out of a marina 10 minutes after you buy a boat if all is on the the up and up....like most people are telling you and not the paper pushers in the NVDC.


Not that makes anyone lesser...the lady I dealt with there about the USCG screwup on my current boat was really cool...it was the NJ DMV that wouldn't play ball this go around....OH well...they lost their sales tax for a year.


I had the head of it almost screaming at me when I tried to describe the error in HIN numbers on my last boat. I was an active duty Commander in the USCG and this guy was telling me because of an error on the USCGs part, I couldn't use my boat either. It brought a good round of laughs with the operational types.


The guys on the water are usually pretty cool is you have some paperwork and a logical explaination...they don't have the CFRs memorized and really don't want to get into a paperwork tangle.

I agree with Kevin. Have the broker prepare a "Traveling Letter" which states you are the owner, have applied for documentation through the USCG. When I had my boat inspected by the USCG for safety, they accepted the bill of sale and the traveling letter as proof of ownership. No worries buddy! Go enjoy your boat....

I've had my own horror story with the NVDC. I tried to make a change to my documentation midyear, and faxed them all the paperwork last February. Last August, while we were out at the islands (way out of cell range) I got a nasty voicemail from the NVDC telling me that my application was incomplete, and I had 72 hours to remedy it or I would forfeit my money and my place in line. Well, a week later when we got back I called them.

It turns out the fax machine had jammed during the call and one of the pages was incomplete. Needless to say, I was speechless. I work for local government, so I've got no illusions as to their efficiency, but this was a new low. At this point I should mention that I've worked on the end of a phone line before, so I prefer not to yell or mistreat someone who's personally not at fault just to make myself feel better. But the treatment I got from the lady at the CG was outrageous. I finally broke my own rule, and in a calm determined voice told her to shred my application and keep my money, I was going to refile with a documentation company, and to consider my fee a cheap learning experience in governmental incompetence. I expressed my gratitude that the operational folks at the CG didn't operate in a similar fashion, as I'd hate to wait four months after calling for help to hear they were busy and not coming to get me. That it was a joke to wait four months to tell me I had 72 hours to fix a problem on their end. And after all that, I didn't even feel better.

So I paid a documentation company to resubmit, but with an additional change. Low and behold, a few weeks later I got a certificate of documentation in the mail. Without the additional change. My best guess is that the lady at NVDC realized the ridiculousness of the whole thing and completed my "incomplete" application.

At any rate, the folks with the boots on the ground (or is it deck in this case) are well aware of the shortcomings of those in the rear echelon. I can't imagine that you would have any issue unless you force their hand by being a knucklehead during the inspection.

You ARE talking about a DC Governmental entity!

Everything you stated is correct. However there is a work around. Get the state documentation. Register your boat with NY (or wherever home state is) and then your legal. Then let the state reg lapse once the COD comes in the mail.

I didn't state register my boat. I kept the original documentation aboard and (if stopped) was going to plead that I was the owners son operating the vessel. Doh. Legal? No. But, unless I peeved off a boarding officer they don't look that hard at the details. They just want 'some' info to fill up their boarding report, and most importantly want to ascertain sobriety, flares, PFDs, Overboard valve and fire extinguishers. Then there gone to the next hapless victim. I think the key to the issue is to not tick off the boarding officer. When you hear someone getting mouthy, that's when they get more inquisitive.

I will have to say I have always been treated with respect when I have called the documentation center. Even when the company I hired screwed up my documentation application, they were always helpful and courteous toward me.

As others have said, register the boat and put the state numbers on until you get the new documentation certificate. Not a big deal.

Once the boat is registered in a state, it's legal. Enjoy. The documentation is required for mortgages and is preferred but not necessarily required in leaving the country.

I once again do advise the use of documentation agents. They are professional and efficient and deal with any problems so you don't have to. If you intend to leave the country soon after taking the boat you can put through an urgent request and get quick turnaround.

Our first boats we were just going to be using in the US and the Bahamas. The Bahamas are fine with Florida registrations. We had no issue waiting 8 months for documentation and not sure why we even documented now that I think of it. More recently we were going to be leaving the country, an agent rushed the documentation and we had it quickly.

As an aside, the documentation did promise to work on processing times. When we first looked on their web site they were about 9 months behind. Now, it's only 4. So progress, even if slow. Recording mortgages they are in much worse shape. They did a few months back stop issuing temporary documents but they started doing so again in May. However, another reason I use an agent as what you know last week may have changed.

The documentation center is not the shining side of the USCG. I suspect it's because all the money is being allocated towards guns and night vision cameras and other play things to keep the boogey man away from us. Us rich yachtie folks are a low priority. Commercial boats, by the way, get processed right away.

I agree that technically you are in violation to operate while the USCG picks their nose instead of processing your application, and no official will ever tell you otherwise. But in practice it's not an issue as long as you carry paperwork to show you have applied for documentation.

One note on state registration as an interim measure. Doing so will trigger state sales tax where it might otherwise not be due. I purchased my boat off-shore in international waters, and no sales tax is due to my home state until I bring the boat into the state, and then only if I do so within 1 year or two years or something like that after purchase. As a non-resident in the other states I am visiting, I am a visitor and state sales/use tax is not due as long as I don't stay too long and comply with their rules, which of course I do.

twistedtree said:

The documentation center is not the shining side of the USCG. I suspect it's because all the money is being allocated towards guns and night vision cameras and other play things to keep the boogey man away from us. Us rich yachtie folks are a low priority. Commercial boats, by the way, get processed right away.

I agree that technically you are in violation to operate while the USCG picks their nose instead of processing your application, and no official will ever tell you otherwise. But in practice it's not an issue as long as you carry paperwork to show you have applied for documentation.

One note on state registration as an interim measure. Doing so will trigger state sales tax where it might otherwise not be due. I purchased my boat off-shore in international waters, and no sales tax is due to my home state until I bring the boat into the state, and then only if I do so within 1 year or two years or something like that after purchase. As a non-resident in the other states I am visiting, I am a visitor and state sales/use tax is not due as long as I don't stay too long and comply with their rules, which of course I do.

Click to expand...

A good point on sales tax. For most who are going to have a home state they're going to be subject to it regardless. Obviously if you're not bringing the boat into the US for a while and then not overstaying anywhere you can avoid sales tax. In some cases though there's an advantage to paying sales tax to avoid being charged in states with higher rates. A good documentation agent can also advise on individual situations.

NJ will collect the difference if paid lower elsewhere and they have pretty strict use tax laws.

Not sure of any other state....

psneeld said:

NJ will collect the difference if paid lower elsewhere and they have pretty strict use tax laws.

Not sure of any other state....

Click to expand...

Every state has different laws on how long you can be there without registering, when you must pay sales tax, whether there is property tax. However, in the majority of states, whether it is documented or not doesn't matter. It just lets you use a decal instead of numbers. Now some states don't require registration of documented vessels.

Just an aside: I'm still waiting for my doc. papers. Can someone give me the USCG number or website? Thanks

Phone Numbers:
Toll Free: (800) 799-8362
Main: (304) 271-2400
Phone Hours: 9:00 a.m. to 3:00 p.m. (Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday and Friday)
Phones are not manned on Thursdays

All Times are Eastern Time (Standard or Daylight Savings, when applicable)

One more data point for you. I bought my boat in Ketchikan, AK then entered Canada and re-entered the US on the way to San Francisco. I had no problems presenting a bill of sale with an application for the change in documentation. I don't think you need to worry - I certainly did not.

Richard
Stillwater
KK54 #5

Website

USCG National Vessel Documentation Center, Home Page

I've been talking with the government affairs guy at BoatUS about this. There is an effort underway, led by one congressman, to reform the NVDC. Copy of my latest email to BoatUS:

David,

I just checked the NVDC page that tells which application dates are currently being processed. Since I filed our application on August 4, 18 days ago, they have gained six days. That means they are falling 3 days further behind every day. Mathematically, that means no current applications will ever be processed.

The only thing showing up in the system for our boat is the lien release form. This was sent directly by the very large brokerage and was in the system within 12 hours of receipt. This supports the point you were delicately trying to make, the NVDC is just ignoring and knocking off the back of the desk anything not received from a documentation agent or brokerage that they do not deal with frequently enough to recognize the name.

I see that the BoatUS website doesn’t indicate how much you charge to handle documentation but there is currently a $100 off offer. I can only conclude that this is one of those “If you have to ask, you can’t afford it.” things. The broker wanted $450 for the work I did on our boat in 45 minutes. From a work standpoint, this is as absurd as the mailings and emails I get every year at document renewal time offering to help me with the “complex process” (one signature, one check mark, one date) for $100 and up. It’s never taken me more than 5 minutes to renew.

Clearly, what is being sold here is not work but access. Government obstructionism now creates windfall for private access providers. BoatUS has become part of that system so I guess I will contact them on Monday and pay for what they are now selling.

Roger