Hydraulic Steering Cylinder - New or Rebuild

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clynn

Senior Member
Joined
Jun 9, 2015
Messages
275
Location
USA
Vessel Name
Ivory Lady
Vessel Make
46 Jefferson
My new to me boat has set up for awhile and among the issues I'm dealing with is hard steering. It has a Capilano hydraulic system. Both helm stations are difficult to operate, so I added the correct fluid and bled the system. Next, I greased the rudders, but it wasn't much better. I then disconnected the rudder from the cylinder. Rudders move freely, so I had my helper turn the wheel with it disconnected and we had the same difficultly turning the wheel.

That leads me to the cylinder. It will move, but not freely at all. Can these be rebuilt successfully? Is it a specialist job or can a somewhat handy guy do it with instructions? Or, should I just break down and buy a new one?

By the way, this forum is great and I appreciate all of the help I've received on other topics!

Chris
 

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Just rebuilt ours this year, a lot easier than I imagined. A small seal kit contained everything needed and it worked great. I would take it apart and see if it is rebuildable or is the metal scored making it hard to operate.

Hope the Univalve is OK as they are not available any more.
 
That leads me to the cylinder. It will move, but not freely at all. Can these be rebuilt successfully? Is it a specialist job or can a somewhat handy guy do it with instructions? Or, should I just break down and buy a new one?
Chris

Hi Chris,

A good hydrualics shop can rebuild the cylinder for you. Replacing the seals is not all that expensive and is pretty common for heavy equipment.

I replaced my steering cylinder a couple of years ago and had the old cylinder re-built as a spare in anticipation of cruising in the Aleutians (single point of failure).

SteeringRam422.jpg
 
A piece of cake to rebuild. Bought the seals at a bearing house for chump change and did it myself. When I pulled the cylinder I found that the PO used ATM fluid which is a no no. I bled the system and refilled it with Wagner steering oil. Worked like a charm.
 
My Capiliano Hydraulic Steering instructions says:
"Use automatic transmission fluid, type A or Dexron II or SAE 10 Turbine oil".
 

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I just uploaded 4 different manuals in the library for Capilano Steering to the library. Soon as the mods approve they will be there for download, just search Capilano in the manual section............:thumb:
 
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My Capiliano Hydraulic Steering instructions says:
"Use automatic transmission fluid, type A or Dexron II or SAE 10 Turbine oil".

Yep, my manual said the exact same thing. I'll order the rebuild kit and give it a go. Worst that can happen is I screw it up and buy a new one, which I was what I was mentally preparing myself for anyway.

I appreciate the feedback. If I remember, I'll take a few pictures of it disassembled to updated the thread for those that may go this route in the future.
 
Chris, I concur with the rest, if you have good access. it's an easy but messy job. Mine is very difficult to get at and I have had to pull mine out four times in the last 12 months. Leaks around the rear seal despite cylinder honing and new seals. When you get it apart take a close look for scoring in the barrel, if so I'd replace it. Careful putting it together, the o-ring tends to bunch up and get nicked when sliding the end caps and spool back in. Hard to imagine why your cylinder itself is stiff unless there is no o-rings left and the spool is digging into the cyl barrel. I'm thinking you might have a sticky check valve or dirt in your uniflow valve "assuming you have the 3 line system" with 250/275 model helms. Any impediment to the return flow through the uniflow back through to the helm reservoirs could cause stiff steering. Also be sure the upper helm has a vented fill plug and not a solid one as some dummy did to mine.

If you happen to find a good price on the cylinder let me know, pricing I have seen ranges from $800 to $1000
 
I had our rudder cylinder rebuilt as it started leaking. It was out in the open in the aft cockpit. Subject to all weather including sun. I noticed one day it got fairly hot in the sun. I have since built a platform/table for my new dedicated kerosene fuel tank for the Wabasto. I built the platform and positioned it mostly to keep the sun off the hyd cylinder.

I have my suspicions as to the stiff chacteristics. My hydraulic steering is more stiff than the cable steering it replaced. I think it's because I did overkill on the size of the system. I did it for security and dependability kinda like getting a monster anchor. The seals and shafts are large causing excess drag. But if I had more stiffness than that I'd suspect something is bent or there was a piston problem.

The thing I like about the hyd steering is that after a heading adjustment is made one can let go of the helm and it always stays put.
 
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I'm thinking you might have a sticky check valve or dirt in your uniflow valve "assuming you have the 3 line system" with 250/275 model helms. Any impediment to the return flow through the uniflow back through to the helm reservoirs could cause stiff steering. Also be sure the upper helm has a vented fill plug and not a solid one as some dummy did to mine.

It is the 3 line system and I had not considered the check valve. Is there a way to test it? Is it potentially a condition that can be remedied by fully bleeding the system? There is some fluid on the bottom of the cylinder, but I would consider it a trace amount.

Also, to be clear, when I say stiff steering, I mean it's hard to turn the wheel at both stations and it feels like something is binding.

The wheel moves freely when the bleeder screws are opened if that makes any difference.
 
Hi Chris, sorry for the lag in response. I know exactly your symptoms, had the same issue with stiff steering at both helms and have been battling with my system for over a year. It has been a maddening, and frustrating, but valuable learning experience. I have completely disassembled both helms, the uniflow and the cylinder multiple times and installed new seals in all. I am not aware of any easy method of testing the check valves "in the univalve" other than disassembly. Note that despite what all the literature says to the contrary, there are also check valves inside the port/starboard line connections to each 250V/275V helm It sounds like your helms are fine however, they are in parallel so only one would / should? be affected by a bad internal check.

If you have noticed any tranny fluid at all, anywhere, your getting air in the system and is likely your entire problem. That little bit on the bottom of the cylinder you noted is all it takes. Air will definitely cause stiff steering as well as lock-ups and screwing up your autopilot. Try running your autopilot manually from hard over to hard over, listen close, if the pump squeals, gurgles or changes pitch at any time, you have air. Before pulling everything apart, as a test you could try fully bleeding the system and see if that improves things temporarily. If not, then I would pull out the cylinder (which you have to do anyway to fix the leak, but also take out the univalve to clean up and instal o-ring kits in both. (comes with instructions). While your at it, you might as well put new seals in your helms. Mine didn't leak at all until I began working on the system, in fact it started to leak virtually everywhere, not sure why.

If the cylinder itself is binding I highly doubt it is internal, having had them apart so many times I just don't see how it could unless it is completely shot. Did you check the rear fixed mount which is ball mounted, when I pulled mine I found it was completely seized from lack of grease. Also check the front clevis mount that the ball moves freely and not binding on the rudder arm. To check, undo one end and swing cylinder back and forth, then do other end. Also have someone turn the wheel hardover both ways while you watch to see if it's binding anywhere.

I put my money on your uniflow acting up. It directs the flow back to the reservoir and if it is stuck/restricted there will be pressure on both sides of the spool in the cylinder causing it to work against itself. This would effect both helms turning in both directions. Chances are it just needs cleaning up and seals. Any defective internal parts can easily be duplicated by a machine shop.

I'm not however put off Capilano, far from it. The newer Capilano 2 line system that does away with the uniflow is in my opinion bar-none the best steering system in the world.

In retrospect if I had half a brain I should have bit the bullet and bought two new 1250/1275 helms and a new cylinder and converted to a two line to do away with the obsolete univalve. Would have been far and away less work but I refuse to be beat, Murphy will not win. It has become a battle between man and machine and I intend to win regardless of pain and cost. Once I've finally won and got the old system working to perfection, I'll rip the damn thing out and go with the new system.
 
This is fantastic information and I appreciate the time you put into your write-up. It will be a few weeks before I'm able to make it back to the boat, but I'll work through your suggestions.

Question on the uniflow valve. Does it just unscrew in order to renew the seals? Seems like a reasonable PM item even if that isn't the issue.

According to this post from SeaStar, you're hosed if the valve is faulty...

Capilano U50 Valve (uniflow valve) - The Hull Truth - Boating and Fishing Forum
 
Chris, a link to pics & description of operation of uniflow valve is here.
Patent US3908687 - Marine steering control valve and system - Google Patents

There are dire warnings about the uniflow valve all over the internet. Its actually a very simple mechanical device. The moving parts are a couple of machined spools along with springs and ball bearings for check valves. Although there are only seal kits available for it these days, with some effort I'm sure substitute springs can be found and the spools could be made by any machine shop if needed.

Yes, around the perimeter of the valve are screw plugs with orings, unscrew these and the springs, balls & spools can be pulled out. Instructions come with o-ring / seal kit. Note that some model uniflows have a blade slot in plugs to unscrew and others have two holes and require special tool. If the latter, just use the tips of snap ring pliers in the holes to remove. Careful, some are plastic plugs. Capilano recommends stretching springs before re-inserting and to use a wood dowel to smack the balls against the seats to renew them. I skipped this step and ended up taking it all apart again. Good luck. By the way I scoured the hydraulic shops for a replacement for these grossly over priced cylinders and while a few were close, I found no joy. Looks like my wallet is going to get 1K lighter.
 
New or Rebuild BOTH!

If you are going cruising and the cylinder wore out , I would purchase a new one , AND rebuild the old one.

After operating with the new one , I would remove it and install the rebuilt unit.

Now you have an operating spare , that you know fits , and how to install it.

This should be the drill for any spare (like a starter) Install it to see it fits and works, then remove and stow it ,rather than get a big surprise sometime.
 
Here's what I know from years of owning construction equipment and heavy trucks-

If it's a relatively cheap cylinder, say less than $500, you're better off buying a new one rather than paying a shop to rebuild.

You can rebuild yourself, but most folks don't have the means to bench test before re-installation. So you're risking unnecessary labor in removing and replacing the cylinder a couple of times if the rebuild is not successful. You can ignore this if you're not concerned about your own labor.

If the rod is scored, and the cylinder is small, you should buy a new cylinder.

A competent cylinder shop can rebuild a cylinder, and bench test it before installation. Scored rods can be replaced/fabricated by a shop with machining capabilities.

Small cylinders we replace with new; large cylinders we rebuild. The line between the two depends on your labor cost, cost of a replacement cylinder, and the availability of replacement parts.
 
Here's what I know from years of owning construction equipment and heavy trucks-

If it's a relatively cheap cylinder, say less than $500, you're better off buying a new one rather than paying a shop to rebuild.

You can rebuild yourself, but most folks don't have the means to bench test before re-installation. So you're risking unnecessary labor in removing and replacing the cylinder a couple of times if the rebuild is not successful. You can ignore this if you're not concerned about your own labor.

If the rod is scored, and the cylinder is small, you should buy a new cylinder.

A competent cylinder shop can rebuild a cylinder, and bench test it before installation. Scored rods can be replaced/fabricated by a shop with machining capabilities.

Small cylinders we replace with new; large cylinders we rebuild. The line between the two depends on your labor cost, cost of a replacement cylinder, and the availability of replacement parts.

Good response and mirrors my experience. But, does the OP know his cylinder is BO? Without a bench test hard to know for sure. A good boat yard guy with gauges and relevant knowledge would be the way I'd go unless you have lots of time and no schedule.
 
There was a good discussion on boatdiesel.com a while back, I learned a lot from it.
One important item is the diameter of the hoses, often skimped on by builders.
Also a good flush and fresh fluid can do wonders for helm effort.
I now run ATF cut 25% with diesel fuel, very smooth!
A zerk on the lower rudder bushing is a good idea, frequently a source of binding.
 
kapnd,
I went w large dia hoses and the steering effort is more than I thought it would be .. tollerable but dosn't make me smile. I went out of my way do insure my hoses were large ID. Thought it would be effortless steering .. w one finger as w a 55 Buick. Wrong. I think the drag in my system is the over sized helm pump and rudder cylinder. And even more specificly the large shaft seal in the cylinder.

No plans to "fix" it as more important things are there for me to do.
 
Update:

A local boat mechanic stated that he had seen instances of cylinders freezing up after long periods of disuse. Access is good, so I went ahead and pulled the cylinder and sure enough I can't move it at all manually. I'm planning on purchasing the rebuild kit and either taking a stab at it myself or having my local rebuild shop do it for me.

I'll update once that has been completed for anyone else that may have this issue in the future.

This is the rebuild kit i found:

SeaStar Inboard Cylinder Seal Kit - HC5182
Mfr. SeaStar Solutions
Part No. 87740 | Mfr No. HS5182
 
I took a stab at it about 6 months ago, it was easy and worked great.......leak gone!

All the Capilano manuals I uploaded are now available in the library.
 
I took a stab at it about 6 months ago, it was easy and worked great.......leak gone!

Mine is very difficult to move. How did you get yours apart? I'm concerned that I may need to use a vise and mallet or small sledge with block of wood on the shaft.
 
If you happen to find a good price on the cylinder let me know, pricing I have seen ranges from $800 to $1000

You may have already pulled the trigger on one, but I just got off the phone with SeaStar and they gave me some information for my specific model.

The rebuild kit is HS5182, as noted in my previous post.

The replacement cylinder is HC5318. If you google that part number, you will find several vendors. I did a very quick search and the best price I found was $572.95 at Teleflex HC5318 Inboard Cylinder-HC5318 Teleflex - Star Marine Depot

Good luck with your repair.

Chris
 
Mine is very difficult to move. How did you get yours apart? I'm concerned that I may need to use a vise and mallet or small sledge with block of wood on the shaft.

Just put the cylinder in a vise(gently) and followed the instruction that came with the kit, it was easy.......:thumb:
 
If you're going to clamp it in a vise be sure you clamp it on either end of the cylinder. if you clamp in the middle you can easily distort the barrel.
John
MS390
 
So I got the rebuild kit and started to take the cylinder apart. It went well until I got to the part where I had to remove the rod from the cylinder. It was immovable, so I used the mini sledge to get it out. It worked, but I slightly mushroomed the head of the rod. I made sure to hit the side that was not threaded. Everything is back together with the exception of the piece that slides over the mushroomed rod. See pic.

My thought is to grind it down just enough to slide the piece over. I can't see why that would be an issue, but please let me know what I'm missing.ImageUploadedByTrawler Forum1440978184.221583.jpg
 
Greetings,
Mr. c. That's probably what I would do if I didn't have access to a metal lathe. Go gently.
 
A file will give better control than a grinding wheel.
 
Hi Chris, It should have been impossible for it to be that tight, what did you find wrong when you got it open? How was the inside of barrel for scratches. If you have not re-installed it yet, and unless it is really easy to get at, I strongly suggest a hydrostat, it could save you having to drain the system to take it right back out again. It's simple to do. Remove hoses & screw a 3/8 pipe plug in one end, and a male air chuck quick disconnect fitting into the other. (also need a 3/8 to 1/4 reducer to attach the disconnect to the cylinder - all available at any hardware cheap) Snap your air compressor hose chuck onto the fitting, drop the cylinder in a bucket of water & pressurize it to a 100psi. This is not foolproof but if it doesn't leak at this point your likely good to go. After numerous times, I finally got mine to pass the hydrostat by honing the barrel with a brake hone on a drill but once the cyl was re-installed it would not hold under the extreme pressure the cylinder operates at.

Thanks for the link, I had not bought one yet. Hope its not their last one because I'm going to buy it :)
 
Thanks for the feedback.

Capt K, after talking to my mechanic friend about it last night, he had the same concern about it being so tight. It appears that the plastic pieces holding the cup seals had swelled, which caused it to bind. I tried putting the rod through without the seals and had the same issues. Based on this and and fact that it's nearly 30 years old, I'm going to buy a new one. I could probably get this one to work, but the ability to steer the boat is fairly important and I don't want to take any chances. I'm going to finish putting this one back together in the off chance it's needed in the future as it did sort of work before.

Again, I appreciate everyone's feedback.

Chris
 

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