Passenger Ratings

Anybody happen to know the maximum suggested passenger rating for 30' Sundowner Tugs, or comparably sized/configured vessels?

How many life jackets do you have?

obthomas said:

How many life jackets do you have?

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Eight.

6 passengers plus 2 crew

But in the States they can't be paying passengers unless you have a captains license.

In California, only boats under 20 feet in length must display the boat's maximum capacity both in number of person, total load weight, and horsepower. Can't speak for the rest of USA, but little doubt that requirement is universal. Beyond 20 feet it is up to judgment (if considered unsafe, law enforcement will terminate the voyage.)

I'll assume you are asking about the safe number of friends you can take out on the boat? Of course weather plays into this, a quiet harbour cruise for a hour is different than crossing the Hecate Straits.

For existing pleasure boats this size there are no rules on maximum number of passengers. For commercial use there are very strict rules involving a full stability study. One rule of thumb suggests the full crew on one side should not heel the boat enough to immerse more than 1/4 to 1/2 the freeboard. Freeboard is waterline to main deck height (not rail), but that may be complicated if there's a cockpit. All passengers on one side should never heel the boat more than 14 degrees, according to the US Coast Guard.

So lets look at passenger heel.....

We know that a known heeling weight moved a known distance off centerline, divided by the vessel displacement multiplied by the GM, will give us certain heel angle. So we work backwards....

I have to guess at the Sundowner numbers, beam is 11.5' and displacement 11,000 pounds? Lets say 6 people at 185 pounds moving 4.5' off centerline.

Heel angle = sin-1 (1110 * 4.5' / 11,000 * 2.2 )

= 12 degrees heel (that's safe)

What mark said

Thanks for the input, especially Tad for the hard numbers to work from.

The Humpback Whales are back up in the top end of Douglas Channel early this year, and friends/acquaintances/workmates are hinting they want to see them up close and personal.

The most we've had aboard for an afternoon jaunt was eight (family was in town and could hardly edit some of them out ) and it felt crowded.

MurrayM said:

............ The most we've had aboard for an afternoon jaunt was eight (family was in town and could hardly edit some of them out ) and it felt crowded.

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If it feels crowded, you are at your limit. Now think about something else - A bunch of people down low and a bunch of people on the flybridge are two different things. And if they all rush to one side to see a whale, it's even more important to limit the number of people.

Now consider conditions. A calm sunny day on an inland canal on the AICW or the open ocean with significant wind and seas.

My boat used to have a decal warning not to allow more than six people on the flybridge. The most I've had on my boat was nine and I had to borrow one PFD for the trip. It was up and down the ICW for an hour or so on a protected canal.

MurrayM said:

The most we've had aboard for an afternoon jaunt was eight (family was in town and could hardly edit some of them out ) and it felt crowded.

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You just answered your question and there may be conditions in which the 8 is too many.

Often times boats are overloaded with no problems, but there are some injuries and lives lost regularly just because of it.

Murray,

The dog will have to stay home.

No flybridge, so no worries there.

Wouldn't want to have eight again...that was a special occasion. (Have extra lifejackets from sea kayaking days).

Was just curious as I seem to remember a reference to passenger capacity in something written by Sundowner Tugs, that's why this was posted in the Tug Designs Forum, but couldn't recall where it was.

Thanks for chiming in.

Northern Spy said:

Murray,

The dog will have to stay home.

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He sure did stay home that day

markpierce said:

In California, only boats under 20 feet in length must display the boat's maximum capacity both in number of person, total load weight, and horsepower............

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This is the legal language so if the boat is longer than 20 feet, there's no specific limit. It's up to the captain. You need to use good judgement here.

There was a recent case where a severely overloaded 36 or so foot boat capsized and lives were lost. Legislators jumped to introduce new laws but I don't think anything ever came of it.

Anecdotal experience: I was walking by the gas dock at my marina one holiday when I heard a captain telling his passengers "If we see the Coast Guard some of you will have to go below. I don't have enough life jackets for everyone."

rwidman said:

This is the legal language so if the boat is longer than 20 feet, there's no specific limit. It's up to the captain. You need to use good judgement here.

There was a recent case where a severely overloaded 36 or so foot boat capsized and lives were lost. Legislators jumped to introduce new laws but I don't think anything ever came of it.

Anecdotal experience: I was walking by the gas dock at my marina one holiday when I heard a captain telling his passengers "If we see the Coast Guard some of you will have to go below. I don't have enough life jackets for everyone."

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And just because there is no "official" number of passengers, that does not mean the Coast Guard or others can't cite you for being overloaded. It becomes judgement and you might not be found guilty. More likely they'd have you go slowly and follow you to a dock for you to remove a couple of people.

My dock neighbor is a Coast Guard inspected passenger vessel. It is a 30' lobster boat and is rated for 23 passengers.

MurrayM said:

Anybody happen to know the maximum suggested passenger rating for 30' Sundowner Tugs, or comparably sized/configured vessels?

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Hi Murray

On every boat owned... We always carry more life jackets than should be needed, all in accessible locations. IMO that is a very simple (potentially lifesaving) safety measure that requires little to no maintenance effort. Our Tolly has 10 adult sized vests on fly bridge (I nearly always pilot from bridge) and several in forward cabin closet. Additionally aboard, we have three child size and two for infants.

Reason: - Ya just never know what might happen. Could be that passengers on our boat need to don them due to rough sea conditions... or God forbid for an emergency or calamity. Although I've never had occasion, I feel we have enough extras to throw to others on/in the water if they need that for assistance. I also keep two life rings with 75' 3/8" floating line hung on either outside of the bridge.

Most people we’ve had on our Tolly was eight. Most on bridge was four.

Here’s link to basic safety number of passengers from back in the day that was recommended by Tollycraft Corp when in production. 1950’s through early 90’s approx. 6,500 Tolly’s splashed. Thousands are still being looked after… ours included.

Tolly Classified - Model Selection

“Vehicle Specification Numbers” - Page bottom.

“Model Selection” 1956 – 1991 – Page top

PS: Tad’s post #7 is point-on!

In Queensland, nanny state that we are for marine rules, a boat must have an ABP (Australian Builders Plate) or a capacity label at each helm position. I've attached the flybridge version of the label, p2 of the pdf shows the calculation.

If over 6 metres then capacity is 0.75 x length x sq rt (beam)
For flybridge boats then it is 0.6 x length x sq rt (beam)

So on my OA Mk 1, I end up with a capacity label that allows 20 persons, maximum of 5 on flybridge. The formula is a bit crude, but I dont like crowded boats and I think it gives realistic numbers and guidance.


In NSW rules are different as there is a Mk 1 in Sydney that is certified to take 30 guests for cruises (enclosed waters).

Brian, for private use boats in NSW State, setting passenger limits is a DIY exercise. My boat came without the mandatory pax sticker, I asked Maritime for one, they sent me some blank stickers and sets of adhesive numerals to put on them once I decided on max pax numbers plus some guidelines of what might be appropriate.

Insequent said:

In Queensland, nanny state that we are for marine rules, a boat must have an ABP (Australian Builders Plate) or a capacity label at each helm position. I've attached the flybridge version of the label, p2 of the pdf shows the calculation.
.

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I notice one emphasis on the label too that this is the capacity in SMOOTH WATER and a reduction MUST be made in adverse conditions.

When we go offshore we can't guarantee conditions will remain smooth so really shouldn't push the limits.

BandB said:

I notice one emphasis on the label too that this is the capacity in SMOOTH WATER and a reduction MUST be made in adverse conditions.

When we go offshore we can't guarantee conditions will remain smooth so really shouldn't push the limits.

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Well Smooth Water is actually a defined limit and it is not related to your own opinion of sea state, as follows:

"Smooth waters include rivers, creeks, streams and lakes, waters within breakwaters or revetments and within half a nautical mile from land within partially smooth water limits."

Here is the link to more detailed designations, with links to some 'chartlets':
Smooth and partially smooth water limits (Maritime Safety Queensland)

Mandatory Safety Equipment on board is related to whether you are in smooth water, partially smooth water or beyond such waters.

Would love to know how Tad estimated the GM for his numerical exercise? Seems a little loosey-goosey to be declared 'safe' so authoritatively. Unless he knows something we don't.

probably does....there are simplified estimations in all engineering disciplines.


no guarantees because boat mods can take the average boat and turn it into a death trap...but generally not.

chriscritchett said:

Would love to know how Tad estimated the GM for his numerical exercise? Seems a little loosey-goosey to be declared 'safe' so authoritatively. Unless he knows something we don't.

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First, yes, I know something you don't. Rather I have some experience that's relevant. It's an educated guess at the worst case.

I estimated GM based on my experience and my general knowledge of the particular boat in question, and then used a conservative fudge to create a "worst case".

The typical smallish fiberglass production boat, relatively lightly built, fairly wide, not particularly tall, with relatively shallow draft, with full fuel and two people aboard, will have a GM somewhere between 2' and 3.5'.

The Sundowner tug is low, has no flying bridge with hardtop and AC, no huge deck crane and RIB on the rooftop. In normal full load condition GM will be 3.5' or more. But adding 12 people on the deck and trunk cabin will raise G quite a bit. So I reduced GM to 2.2', though I believe it will be higher than that. Pretty sure if everybody stood on the PH roof GM could be 2.2'.

Stupid details, if your kayak lifejackets are the type that are worn, as in type 3, they do not qualify as Type 2 (the usual life jacket found on boats,) and do not count as life jackets (pfd) unless they are being worn.

This has to do with the jackets ability to keep an unconscious wearers head above the water, that's why the pfd has all the flotation on the front and that irritating collar across the back of your head.

Stupid trivial pursuit type information, but if you get stopped because your boat looks overloaded the first thing the LEO is going to ask is to see your life jackets. That's when the devil is in the details.

MurrayM said:

No flybridge, so no worries there.
Wouldn't want to have eight again...that was a special occasion. (Have extra lifejackets from sea kayaking days).

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I believe type III's do count if not worn..it is many of the type V's that have to be worn to count.


The USCG is supposedly changing the labels on PFDs so bottom line read the label.


For activities that you may fall at speed...usually a "watersports" labeled PFD is required ...tough call though for LEOs as I am not sure there is a clear law on that one and might even vary from state to state.

No one has suggested contacting the builder?
No one has suggested assigning seats?
If the crowd contains children.... good luck. They move scatter quickly. Assign the child-parent rule. One parent for each child onboard and make sure you have the proper PFD for the kids and pets.

OldDan1943 said:

No one has suggested contacting the builder?

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Perhaps because the builder no longer exists? Do they? I'm not familiar with them if they do.