Teak Top Rails - To Cetol or Not Cetol

In 2012, I began my boating life by purchasing a Hershine TriCabin Trawler (made in 1985 by Cheerman yards, Taiwan). The teak top rails were blackened, so I researched a strategy to brighten the wood. After much conversation with others at the marina, and some examples to look at, I started with the starboard rail and...

1. Pressure washed the blackened coating off
2. Scrubbed with teak cleaner
3. Scrubbed with teak brightener
4. Dry overnight
5. Cetol, two coats in two days.

The initial results were glorious, restoring the golden color like new. (Due to change in weather, I could not get the third recommended coat on before winter).








But....after 1 year in the Pacific NW sun and rain, the initial luster is gone and now there are discolored spots breaking through. The color of these spots reminds me of the sun exposed, oxidized discolored teak that I scrubbed clean in the first place. My first thought was that I failed to get an adequate coating of Cetol and the wood is now showing oxidation again. However, I have also read on this Forum that these stains could be fungal growth underneath the Cetol and lead to rot.




Regardless, the result is disappointing in that it did not last 1 season, and now I am concerned about leaving the Cetol on.

Or was the original application too thin and should I re-treat these areas with brightener and then re-apply Cetol?

What do the experienced boaters on this Forum think of these stains, and how should I handle them?

Many thanks in advance

Gosh, only 2 coats not 3 or 4 initially, with a product that is supposed to be topped up annually & so is due (or overdue?) for the top-up coat now....not sure what you have to complain about. I'd wash with dishwashing detergent and a very fine scouring pad and put 2 coats on...and add a coat every 12-18 months

The Cetol on our cap rails lasted 7 years with an annual maintenance coat. Last fall they needed to be refurbished.

Wooded them. Then two coats of Cetol Natural Teak base followed by three coats of Cetol Gloss. Considered that the minimum for initial coating.

Will put a another maintenance coat on them this year.

The key is what is stated below, you need to finish off with a clear coat otherwise it will turn into what you have, I would suggest using a random orbital sander to get some of the grain off from power washing and teak cleaner, the smoother the surface the less the dirt collects.

dwhatty said:

The Cetol on our cap rails lasted 7 years with an annual maintenance coat. Last fall they needed to be refurbished.

Wooded them. Then two coats of Cetol Natural Teak base followed by three coats of Cetol Gloss. Considered that the minimum for initial coating.

Will put a another maintenance coat on them this year.

Click to expand...

I am still battling the Fungus in a few spots on previously neglected rails. Make sure your cleaner has anti-fungal in it or use a light bleach solution and let it soak a bit in those black spots.

Make sure the rails are good and dry this time, and be sure to get 3-4 coats on there. The PNW is hard on these rails. You may want to re-coat every year for awhile at least. With Cetol, that is relatively easy. In the end, I think you will be OK with the results. It is not a hard, shiny varnish finish, but if done right, will hold up well for many years with minimal maintenance.

Your original application was too thin. In 2012 I refinished our rails and used two coats of Natural and then five coats of clear. Every year I do a maintenance coat or clear and they look as good today as when they were first done.

I find it amusing that so many people avoid teak like the plague because it is "so much" work. If it is cared for properly it takes very little work. The maintenance coat takes me about 10 hours a year. A small price to pay for the beauty that it adds.

Our boat is waaaay further down the Cetol disintegration path as it sat for years in the open before being sold.

Our first priorities were working on and upgrading the engine, battery system, etc, and have now started to chip away at the exterior woodwork as weather and house renovations permit.

Still deciding on letting it go silver (Badger does have 'workboat' heritage after all) or maybe pure tung oil. At the pace I'm going, it'll be a next year decision anyways!

As you can see from the last photo, the PO's weren't too careful with their masking tape application...

It didn't last because you didn't sand the teak smooth and you didn't put on enough coats.

In order for a Cetol job to last the longest the prep is the same as for a varnish job. There is no getting around that.


You don't have to you gloss as a top coat if you don't want to. Just use more of the color coat for a satin look if you like that look.

LO First of all why Cetol and not varnish?

Your finish was too thin and water is underneath the Cetol.

When I varnish I always do three thinned coats first. 75% turpentine 1st coat. 50 % turp second coat and 25% turp third coat. Then full strength varnish. As far as I know Cetol is just another varnish.

Pressure washing could have created a problem by forceing water into the wood and seams ect. And you sealed the water in.

I had a thread about going from black teak to bright but can't remember the title. My wife used baking soda, hydrogen peroxide and vinigar. She used Apple cider vinigar. The black crud scrapes away easily keeping it wet and being careful w the scraper. She used scotch bright also.

The reason I use turpentine as a thinner is because it's a natural fungicide.

I see you're in LaConner. We are in K39. You can see our cap rail. Only one coat full strength varnish. Use the best varnish from the best brands and it will be excellent irregardless of the brand you use. I really don't know what Cetol is and untill I find out I'm not going to consider it. Varnishing is really a case of 98% application and 2% product. Do the work, make the effort and a good base will last many years w one coat a year applied to the base. My opinions.

Buy the way our cap rails were far worse than Murray's. Just plain black.

Found the pic. Up to that point the teak had only been cleaned by Chris's method. More sanding and detail cleaning came after this picture. Now the cap rails look good (2nd pic) but we still only have one 100% varnish coat applied. Plan in several coats this summer.
The reason they didn't look like Murray's is because of all the oil I had put on in Alaska. Mixed my own oil finish.

This is 6 coats of epifanes on NEW TEAK . They say magic happens at 13 coats . We will probably do a couple more coats this fall . Prep is important and also those first couple coats need to be thinned to have a good base to work off of . My Dad always said to let the varnish get to know each other by thinning it first . Kinda like a first date don't lay it on too heavy at first. . I tried Cetol once but I only put a couple coats , not enough to really give it a chance to prove itself .

We do 2 or 3 coats of Cetol, then another coat every other season.
They look good not super duper but good. And we are not afraid to touch them, lean on them etc.
Works for us.

manyboats said:

LO First of all why Cetol and not varnish?

Your finish was too thin and water is underneath the Cetol.

When I varnish I always do three thinned coats first. 75% turpentine 1st coat. 50 % turp second coat and 25% turp third coat. Then full strength varnish. As far as I know Cetol is just another varnish.

Pressure washing could have created a problem by forceing water into the wood and seams ect. And you sealed the water in.

I had a thread about going from black teak to bright but can't remember the title. My wife used baking soda, hydrogen peroxide and vinigar. She used Apple cider vinigar. The black crud scrapes away easily keeping it wet and being careful w the scraper. She used scotch bright also.

The reason I use turpentine as a thinner is because it's a natural fungicide.

I see you're in LaConner. We are in K39. You can see our cap rail. Only one coat full strength varnish. Use the best varnish from the best brands and it will be excellent irregardless of the brand you use. I really don't know what Cetol is and untill I find out I'm not going to consider it. Varnishing is really a case of 98% application and 2% product. Do the work, make the effort and a good base will last many years w one coat a year applied to the base. My opinions.

Buy the way our cap rails were far worse than Murray's. Just plain black.

Found the pic. Up to that point the teak had only been cleaned by Chris's method. More sanding and detail cleaning came after this picture. Now the cap rails look good (2nd pic) but we still only have one 100% varnish coat applied. Plan in several coats this summer.
The reason they didn't look like Murray's is because of all the oil I had put on in Alaska. Mixed my own oil finish.

Click to expand...

Manyboats
Thanks for your input I note that you don't talk about sanding the varnish between coats Is sanding necessary if the varnish is in good condition?
Bert

All the varnishing I've done required a light scuff and tack rag after, the bigger issue I had with Varnish is it needed really good weather conditions for application, which just so happened to be good boating weather, the Cetol is less fussy and results are good, not as good as an Epiphanes job, but like anything its all about the time and energy put in that makes the difference.

I think if the first few coats of varnish are not thinned the varnish may dry on top before it dries next to the teak and the natural oils in teak push the varnish off. On our teak we wiped it down with acetone about 15 minutes before the first thinned coat of varnish . I can still feel the grain in mine even thru six coats so that tells me it needs a few more coats.I think cetol has some pigment in it so it probably fills the grain sooner than thinned varnish .

ocean,
Sanding is a must for me but I haven't gone w/o. Read the stuff on the can or/and ask your paint supplier. We go to a paint store that has a very wide viriaty of product and they are knowledgeable about most everything. Find a paint store and over time you'll know if the're good. We're excellent customers so we don't feel bashful about asking them about marine stuff. Get the Maine paint wherever you find it.

Also Interlux has a good website and I'm sure others do also. But mostly depend on what the can says. Every person you talk to is questionable including me but I think you can depend on what the can says. I'm sure a lot of thought goes into what they print. And if you read the can it will have limited value unless you have something to indicate what the humidity is. One can be WAY off looking at the sky. Don't overlook the value of a good brush too.

Pack Mule,
I wonder how compatible teak oil is w tung oil, linseed oil ect. It's all tree oil so there may be a significant advantage to oil based varnish on teak. The teak oil may help the other tree oil penetrate the wood and aid adhesion. Or if one uses acetone the paint oil may rush in to take the place of the tree oil removed by the acetone. Just a few thoughts.

Eric ,
Yes I think the acetone dries out the natural teak oil on the surface only long enough for the varnish to have time to dry .I always acetone before first coat of varnish or epoxy on teak. If the top of the varnish dries before the bottom it's always a mess for me even in paint . It's always easier to get better results with new lumber .

Cetol versus the rest of them

I've applied a lot of varnish, Cetol is the easiest to maintain and repair. You can sand out small areas and recoat and blend with out having to redo the whole piece unlike non pigmented varnishes. I think on older weathered teak Cetol is your best bet. It may not have the beauty of Ephanes, Bristol, Captains but it is more durable and easier to maintain. That's why it's on my boat. but like all varnishes you need at least 8 coats. One or two maybe three coats of light Cetol followed by 6 or more coats of gloss. The nice thing about Cetol is no sanding between coats, short time between coats. Once on, it stands up for several years in the Sac Delta heat and cold, my rails are over 5 years since coated last. 8 coats of Ephanes is good for six months in the same conditions, apply eight coats over smiths and you get a year maybe, Bristol maybe a year year and a half. Since I work on others boats for a living, I want to work on my brightwork as little as possible so I sacrifice the a little beauty for durability.

I use Cetol, lasts at least a year here in Fl. and is easy. You may enjoy 12 coats of longingly applied varnish every 4 months, I have other things to do.

Yes... varnish lasts about 4 months here, have fun.

Greetings,
Mr. Cheech. First off, my humblest apologies for not noticing sooner that this was your first post. WELCOME ABOARD!!!!....Ahem, OK...Cetol all the way for us, or rather the Admiral who does all the brightwork.
Tried the Cetol gloss for the first time last fall and we really like the finish. In your case, looks like not enough coats. But in one way, that's secondary at this point. As suggested above, the raised grain warrants a sanding. Yes, you'll be removing wood but it should be a one shot deal IF you maintain the subsequent refinish. Hold off on the pressure washer. It was adequate although possibly not the best way to initially remove the staining but I think a sanding should remove most if not all current stains. Any stain that DOES remain after sanding will simply add character to the boat. 3 or 4 coats of gloss should go a long way in improving looks. I would also not use any brightener, soap or any preconditioning aqueous liquids. Solvents for a wipe down, yes but no water.
Aside: Whilst in the process of doing our cap rails, Cruiser (55lb Redbone Coonhound) took it upon himself to plant his dirty front paws on our first coat of gloss. Well, it is what it is and now his pawprints are immortalized on board. Coated right over the "evidence".

Marty,
I've not used acetone on my teak. Not had any problems w adhesion either.

Quite a few raves for Cetol but I still don't know what the stuff is.

One thing that can be said for it is that my paint store stocks it but more significantly Alaskans use lots and lots of Cetol. Very popular. I've tried just about everything else though.

Caprails...... For me it's been a love / hate relationship. Love the look, hate the work. We ordered our boat new in 2007 with the caprails unfinished, as I didn't want to start a varnish addiction, naively thinking all I would have to do is slap on some teak oil from time to time to keep the wood looking spiffy. The boat has always sit in an uncovered marina, and after the first year the areas not under the flybridge overhang (Europa style boat) bleached out and lost the oil much faster than the covered areas creating an uneven appearance. Also, as it turns out the teak oil fuels the growth of black mold which grows inordinately fast here in the Northwest, especially during the wet winter months. So the second year I went the Cetol route. After washing with teak cleaner and sanding to remove the ugly black mold and mildew, I applied 4 coats of Cetol Marine Light which changed the wood color to a somewhat orangey hue. After one full year the caprails emerged from winter looking much better than they had the previous year but unfortunately there were still many areas of checking, pealing and black mold. I was told that the best part about using Cetol was that you can just touch up these areas without stripping the entire caprail surface. After sanding down the bad areas and reapplying the 4 coats of Cetol to refill, there was a vast difference in coloration in the newly touched up areas compared to the original areas, making for an uneven blotchy look that looked worse year after year. I tried the Cetol Gloss as a top coat protectant but it really didn't improve the look or the protection. Somewhere around year 5 I decided to removed all the layers of Cetol down to the bare wood again, and promised myself I would never go back to Cetol. But in it's place, short of varnish there are really few options. Over the course of the next 4 years I used two other products, Star Brite Tropical Teak Sealer and Dalys SeaFin Ship' n Shore Waterproofing Sealer. Both to no avail as after only one season with multiple coats, black discoloration would reappear over the winter months.

This year I decided to bite the bullet and go the dreaded varnish route. I figured why not, it couldn't be any more work than what I've already experienced with the non-varnish products. So I removed everything back down to the bare wood sanding it to a smooth consistency, washed it with teak cleaner, wiped it down with 50% bleach and water solution, then two coats of SeaFin Penetrating Sealer followed by multiple coats of Man-O-War Spar Varnish cut by 35% Penetrol. Between all coats I sanded the surface with either 220 sand paper and / or Scotch-Brite pads. I'm at 7 coats now and may go as many as 10. My objective is to fill all nooks and crannies with varnish to a glass-like surface to prevent dirt and grime collection, thus not allowing a medium for mold and mildew to grow. That's my hope anyway. Hopefully next season will start with maybe only a light sanding and another coat of varnish. We'll see...... Pictures after 7 coats thus far. - SteveH

Nice work Steve . Rails look great . I have use penetrol before with oil base paint but have never tried it with varnish . I'm gonna try it next time we varnish . You have a good base started with the sealer and thinned varnish.

manyboats said:

Marty,


Quite a few raves for Cetol but I still don't know what the stuff is.

Click to expand...

Sikkens Cetol Marine is a durable, long-lasting, semi-transparent satin wood finish made of a special oil-alkyd resin combination and selected ultra violet absorbing pigments, resulting in superior weathering protection for teak and other commonly used woods found on the interiors and exteriors of boats.


Spar varnish

Marine or Spar varnish has a long history of use on boat parts where the varnish's main job was to protect wood exposed to often harsh marine conditions. Spars and masts bend and spar varnish has to be flexible to accommodate this and not crack or flake of. Primary requirement of spar varnish is flexibility and impermeability combined with UV resistance. Modified tung oil and phenolic resins are often used.
The virtue of spar varnish lies in its elasticity and water resistance and much less on its appearance. This spar varnish is often not as shiny as other varnishes. It remains too soft for this.




Google

Timely topic, I was going to ask about repairing a Cetol finish but there seems to be mixed success. I have a rather strange observation on the subject of Cetol. The "covered" aft deck of our boat has Cetol on it applied by the PO at least 6 or 7 years ago, maybe longer. I know its Cetol because of the rather ugly orange colour and the part empty can found aboard. The PO had kept a large 10ft dia rug on the deck which when removed left a shadow where it had been but the Cetol underneath was in virtually pristine condition. The uncovered high traffic areas around the rug have small to moderate areas of peeling as would be expected and I was hoping to repair these. I would have bet anything having an often soaked non-waterproof rug on deck for years would have destroyed both the finish and the deck but it did not, quite the opposite. Even the deck caulking under the rug is absolutely pristine. Would the same apply if it had been varnish? Don't know. The obvious takeaway here is that if you made covers for your cap rails as many do, the Cetol finish would last indefinitely. Same should apply if you were to say custom cut a removable carpet for an exposed flybridge teak deck.

Steve, looks great, thanks for posting your findings, I do think geographically location creates different results when it comes to Cetol, but nothing is forever.

Now you know why so many grand-banks owners have canvas covers over the teak!

SCOTTIEDAVIS,
Your previous post cleared up something I had wondered about. Why they call it "Spar Varnish". I assumed it was special for spars but your description brings something significant together for me. My favorite varnish is McCloskies ... Man O War .. Spar Varnish. I've known it's rather soft and flexible for years and at one point turned my back on it and tried another product. After several other products including "teak oil" I formulated myself while desperate in Alaska.

Another expression for spar varnish should be "high oil varnish". Lately that's what I've been seeking and of course it led me back to McCloskies or more correctly "spar varnish" It could even be called cap rail varnish. With one downside. Cap rails have a lot of relatively high impact encounters w feet, mooring lines, anchors and most anything passing coming aboard or departing the boat. In our case it was feet where we come aboard in the aft cockpit. We sought and found a much harder varnish only to learn about new problems. Now we are back w the Spar (high oil) varnish deciding the scuff markes weren't so bad after all. The high flexability is not only good for spars but IMO cap rails.

As to my question "what is Cetol"? "Special oil-alkyd resin" ...... oil of what? With varnish those things are known. Oil from a specific tree with a specific resin like phenolic resin. Still sounds like it's just another varnish to me. But there clearly is something special about it and I know "they" don't want me to know.

In the 50s, 60's and 70s one only had to read the can to find out what oils and resins were used to make it. It's honesty that I miss and removing that information is protecting the industry ... not the consumer. The government is on the side of industry. So we need to learn about paint products via other means.

Now .. SCOTTIEDAVIS .. Perhaps you could tell me/us what "Man O War" is all about?

Cheechako: there is an earlier recent thread on this topic and also quite a few others. You need more coats of cetol. I use 2 of the natural teak pro duct and strive for 8 of the Marine Gloss product...

However, your last photo shows failure of the finish at the joints that are under the stantion. I had that problem as well. I suspect that water is channeling down the stantion where it sits atop the joint. "Resistance is futile". Failure is inevitable in that case. See the recent thread on "blistering caprail joints" for possible solutions.


Jim
Sent from my iPad using Trawler Forum

Eric,

As I understand it Cetol is more of a synthetic coating rather then a natural varnish. I has higher UV resistance and therefor longer life but at the cost of the fine depth seen in 12 coats of thin varnish.

Cetol has a reputation for being orange, this is only for one of their product lines the "Light Teak" color as it has iron oxides in it to increase it's UV protection and hardness.

The clear comes in both gloss and semigloss (flatter) and is not tinted and makes a nice long wearing finish.

Flexibility is key to marine finish as if they are too hard to expand and contract with the wood (teak is very active, more so then mahogany) any cracks let water in and cause mold and fungus to work on removing more finish and so on.

I really didn't want to like Cetol as it's a synthetic modern finish not warm and friendly like the old school stuff, however like polyurethanes it is a much better product in the real world, much easier to apply, quick drying and long life.

Man-o-war???......made with Jelly-fish from Portugal

manyboats said:

Marty,
I've not used acetone on my teak. Not had any problems w adhesion either.

Quite a few raves for Cetol but I still don't know what the stuff is.

One thing that can be said for it is that my paint store stocks it but more significantly Alaskans use lots and lots of Cetol. Very popular. I've tried just about everything else though.

Click to expand...

All of the Teak that I have been using is new material . I bought a bunch of 5/4 Burmese Teak when I started my cap rail and door project . When new teak comes out of the planner it is very waxy and oily . The sawdust does not linger in the air and sticks to everything . I was nervous about getting good adhesion so that was the reason for acetone first . Older teak is not nearly as waxy and oily as fresh teak right out of the planner .

Do you need to sand Epifane's between coats?

If you use the varnish, yes, but I have used green Scotchbrite pads to rough it up without creating dust and it works great.

If you use the Epifane's Wood Finish Gloss, you don't need to rough it up if you recoat within 72 hrs. I've been able to get 3 coats per day if I start early and work late in good conditions. The results with the wood finish gloss are the same as with the gloss varnish. Great stuff, IMO.

Note: they recommend 24 hrs between coats, but in the warm, low humidity climes, it dries faster than that.