Radio protocol

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Carey wrote:

Here's something that I can't get right. I know that protocol says we must say over, when we are ready to allow the other person to speak. However, I don't say over in normal conversation, and simply don't remember to do so on the radio.
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This may have been answered already-- I haven't read the whole discussion.* But VHF is a simplex system (I think that's the right word).* So it can only transmit one side of a conversation at a time.* It's not like a telephone which is a duplex system so you can interrupt each other.* So saying "over" tells the other person that you are done with your comment and are releasing the mike button so the other person can now depress his mike button and talk.* If you don't say "over" the other person may not know that you have completed your current statement and may be waiting to see if you have more to say.

I always say "over" as my first exposure to VHF radio work was in aviation, where saying "over" becomes automatic.* Transmissions in aviation are kept very short because there may be another plane that needs to communicate with the tower or ATC or whoever Right Now.* Because planes can't stop until someone stops blabbing away on the radio but continue to plow ahead, short, to-the-point radio transmissions are a requirement.

"Over and out" came out of the movies, so far as I can determine, as a way of adding drama to dialogue.* Both terms are valid for radio use, but they contradict each other and so should never be used together.* "Over" means what I described above.* You are turning the simplex channel "over" to the other person to talk.* "Out" means you are done talking and are leaving the channel, turning off the radio, whatever, but you are though with the dialogue and no further comments from you will be forthcoming.* It tells the other person that they can now change frequencies, turn off their radio, or whatever.

Interestingly, "out" is not a term I ever hear used in aviation.* I say "over" after a response to a controller, but I do not say "out" when I'm done with the conversation and I've never heard anyone else-- pilot or controller-- say it either.* We simply stop talking.* So an aviation dialogue might be (me) "Ketchikan Tower, Beaver Five Nine Eight, Mountain Point, inbound for landing in the harbor, with Echo, over."* (Tower)* "Beaver Five Nine Eight, continue inbound,, caution a Cessna just departed the harbor eastbound."* (me) "Five Nine, Eight, continuing inbound, we have the eastbound traffic."* And that would be the end of it.* I'm not going to change radio channels so there's no need to let the controller know that I might do that with an "out."* But in boating I always end a dialogue with "La Perouse, out."

*
 
RT Firefly wrote:

Hiya,
** Ms. Pineapple and Mr. rw.* There's nothing wrong IMHO with people "chatting" on VHF as long as it's on a working channel and NOT on 16.* Many times I have heard charter fisherman exchanging information regarding depths and baits.* There should be enough space and working channels for all this to go on.
*** I have NO patience for CB type talk on ANY channel.*
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RTF I wouldn't consider the fisherman's convo as chatter, that is good info for anyone listening.*

An example of what bugs me would be we are out on race committee and are using 72.* Someone unrelated to our racedecided to have a conversation with their bud about their weekend plans, oblivious to the fact the channel is shared and others were also trying to use it.* You keep thinking ANY MINUTE they are going to wrap it up but it just goes on and on!*
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* luckily that doesn't happen too often.

*
 
Baker wrote:
....and that was my original point...in addition to lat/long. *I have never heard them just give local reference points....I have never heard them give ANY local reference points...only lat/long.

*
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That is true for most USCG transmissions. On rare occasion they reference a known point, bay, passage, etc.

Canadian CG however is very good at giving both references. The Canadian CG actually does a lot of things better than the US.

*
 
Marin, "over" is outdated in aviation....except when used as I explained above. It is usually an agitated exaggerated question mark asking....ARE YOU PAYING ATTENTION BECAUSE I AM CALLING YOU FOR THE UMPTEENTH TIME!!!!....as in "598, this is Seattle Center...OVER????". *Over at the end basically is a question asking "Are you listening?". *It is not regularly used in normal communication on ATC frequencies. There is just too much congestion and every word should be saved. *There is a rhythm...a cadence that the controllers get into that allows them to be able to tell when a transmission ends. *A New York controller would likely even heckle you if you continually used "over". It might be used when talking to FSS and many times while talking on HF. The radio operators for oceanic HF frequencies stick to the letter of the law when it comes to protocol and will very likely use both terms....Over...and....out.... but not together. It mostly allows OTHER people on the frequency that he is done with the conversation since, many times, both sides cannot be heard by all interested parties. So an "out" transmission would proclaim that the freq is free and the operator is available so other people can call.

Probably the most recent iteration of it's use is in the question...."What the f**k". While that question is rhetorical in nature... When you add "over" on the end of it it means that you are looking for an explanation for the situation that merited the remark....as in, "What the f**k.....OVER?"...
smile.gif





-- Edited by Baker on Tuesday 14th of December 2010 03:03:21 PM
 
I monitor 16, but have not talk on it for about 5+ years as we use your cell phones. *The first person I will probable call on my cell phone is Boat US for a tow, 911 for local enforcement boats, my diesel mechanic and/or a neighbor to come get me. They are on my cell phone speed dial. *The Coast Guard usually hands it off to somebody else anyway. I have had to be towed once and ungrounded once.* The tow was by US boat which I called and the grounding was the Seattle police which I called as I knew they were out and about that day.* I have also gone out and helped neighbors when they have called me.* ***
*
If I thought it was a real emergency, I would not change from channel 16 to another channel, as I would want as many boaters/people in receiving distance to hear.* I know of several cases, if they had NOT stayed on channel 16 the person probable would have died as other boaters heard, responded and came to their aid.

The VHF distance is depended on the: radio strength, radio wave form and the height of BOTH the sending and receiving.* So because you can hear them does not mean they can hear you?* Our antenna is 30 ft off the water and its a narrow wave length to max the distance, so we hear boats that are 20+ miles away.*So the signal may fade in and out as the boat rocks.* So for local VHF might want a low antenna and wide beam/wave.* We also have hand held for local.***


-- Edited by Phil Fill on Tuesday 14th of December 2010 04:50:06 PM
 
Phil Fill wrote:


I monitor 16, but have not talk on it for about 5+ years as we use your cell phones.*******
*
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*Pretty good but cell phones don't work where I boat.* no towers

Only the USCG has equipment to hear all of Prince William Sound. Alaska

SD

*
 
Some day I hope to get there and the reason why we have a high antenna and a narrow beam/wave.* However, in the Puget Sound I dont think I have ever actually seen a Coast Guard boat go to the aid of a boater?*
 
Phil Fill wrote:

*
I monitor 16, but have not talk on it for about 5+ years as we use your cell phones. The first person I will probable call on my cell phone is Boat US for a tow, 911 for local enforcement boats, my diesel mechanic and/or a neighbor to come get me. They are on my cell phone speed dial. The Coast Guard usually hands it off to somebody else anyway. I have had to be towed once and ungrounded once.The tow was by US boat which I called and the grounding was the Seattle police which I called as I knew they were out and about that day.I have also gone out and helped neighbors when they have called me.

If I thought it was a real emergency, I would not change from channel 16 to another channel, as I would want as many boaters/people in receiving distance to hear.I know of several cases, if they had NOT stayed on channel 16 the person probable would have died as other boaters heard, responded and came to their aid.

The VHF distance is depended on the: radio strength, radio wave form and the height of BOTH the sending and receiving.So because you can hear them does not mean they can hear you?Our antenna is 30 ft off the water and its a narrow wave length to max the distance, so we hear boats that are 20+ miles away.So the signal may fade in and out as the boat rocks.So for local VHF might want a low antenna and wide beam/wave.We also have hand held for local.

-- Edited by Phil Fill on Tuesday 14th of December 2010 04:50:06 PM
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Speaking to your final statement PhilUsing low power (1watt) is key to local calls. High power may boom over local boats, not to mention cluttering the air waves far away, where those receiving your call cannot help you. All summer long, we hear Canadians hailing a marina (that monitors 66a) twenty miles away. Bad enough that they are on high power when a mile from the marina, but they are doing this on ch 16.

*



-- Edited by Carey on Tuesday 14th of December 2010 06:20:26 PM
 
Carey wrote:Using low power (1watt) is key to local calls. High power will may boom over local boats, not to mention cluttering the air waves far away, where those receiving your call cannot help you.*
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Carey makes a good point but I confess we have never taken the radios on either of our boats off 25 watts.* So far we've never had a problem with boats next to us hearing us on high power.* We use the radio so seldom that we're not concerned about cluttering up the airways up the coast in BC.

On the other hand we've had problems hearing or understanding boats that we learn later were broadcasting on low power.* I'm sure the low power has its uses but*so*far we've never found any reason to use it.* Perhaps if we were in the habit of carrying on long conversations on the radio it would make sense since it would limit the reception distance, but we don't use the radio that way.
 
Marin wrote:

*
Carey wrote:Using low power (1watt) is key to local calls. High power will may boom over local boats, not to mention cluttering the air waves far away, where those receiving your call cannot help you.*
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Carey makes a good point but I confess we have never taken the radios on either of our boats off 25 watts.* So far we've never had a problem with boats next to us hearing us on high power.* We use the radio so seldom that we're not concerned about cluttering up the airways up the coast in BC.

On the other hand we've had problems hearing or understanding boats that we learn later were broadcasting on low power.* I'm sure the low power has its uses but*so*far we've never found any reason to use it.* Perhaps if we were in the habit of carrying on long conversations on the radio it would make sense since it would limit the reception distance, but we don't use the radio that way.But, in all fairness to folks you are not intending to talk to, why boom out beyond the vessel you need to talk to? Why make their boating experience less than it could be, by filling their air with our chatter? I don't want to hear Joe Blow hailing Salt Spring Marina any more than they want to hear me getting a fishing report at Point Thompson.

*
 
Carey wrote:

*But, in all fairness to folks you are not intending to talk to, why boom out beyond the vessel you need to talk to?*
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Because in our experience, low power is just too iffy when it comes to reception.* I don't want to be repeating myself or end up going to high power anyway because someone can't quite read our signal or visa versa.* So we just leave it on high power and eliminate the problem.

-- Edited by Marin on Tuesday 14th of December 2010 06:29:07 PM
 
Marin wrote:

*
Carey wrote:

But, in all fairness to folks you are not intending to talk to, why boom out beyond the vessel you need to talk to?
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Because in our experience, low power is just too iffy when it comes to reception.* I don't want to be repeating myself or end up going to high power anyway because someone can't quite read our signal or visa versa.* So we just leave it on high power and eliminate the problem.

-- Edited by Marin on Tuesday 14th of December 2010 06:29:07 PMBut, if everyone took that position, we'd hear every hail from Everett to Vancouver BC, to Victoria. **
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*


-- Edited by Carey on Tuesday 14th of December 2010 06:41:36 PM

-- Edited by Carey on Tuesday 14th of December 2010 06:50:57 PM
 
Carey wrote:But, if everyone took that position, we'd hear every hail from Everett to Vancouver BC, to Victoria.



*
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Since I think 99.9999 percent of boaters leave their radios on high power all the time anyway, I think*we're already hearing every hail from Everett to Victoria*
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*

This doesn't bother me.* Someone in Victoria may be doing something more interesting than what we're doing so I don't mind hearing about it
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*

I don't find there's enough traffic on 16 up here to warrant getting concerned about it, anyway.* Perhaps on the ICW or a heavily trafficked area the constant radio hails on 16 could get annoying.* But I haven't found that to be the case (yet) up here.**And the sailboaters never seem to use their radios at all so that's one big contingent of boaters that are never heard from on any channel.* The most prolific radio users in our waters*seem to the sport fishermen.
 
Since sailors don't need to make maneuvering signals, perhaps they don't appreciate*the battery drain of a radio.
 
Hiya,
* Ya, f*ck t, the sailboaters who in the interests of "saving energy" or for whatever warped reason* DON'T have their radios on in navagable chanels.* MANY times I have tried to inform a sailboat of my intentions to pass on a certain side, to be met by silence.* Horn signals to be met by fingers and cruising past at what I think is a reasonable speed* to be met by verbal abuse.
** **** YOU and your kind.* Fellow boaters, whom I share the channels with, go in peace.
 
RT Firefly wrote:

Hiya,
Ya, f*ck t, the sailboaters who in the interests of "saving energy" or for whatever warped reason* DON'T have their radios on in navagable chanels.* MANY times I have tried to inform a sailboat of my intentions to pass on a certain side, to be met by silence.* Horn signals to be met by fingers and cruising past at what I think is a reasonable speed* to be met by verbal abuse.
**** YOU and your kind.* Fellow boaters, whom I share the channels with, go in peace.
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I don't mean to defend those rag hangers, but most of them don't have a radio in their cockpits. They are down below, where they can be used to call for help. Never mind the rest of the boating world. f***ing smudepotters anyway. *
beer.gif
Cheers!!!*
smile.gif


*
 
As I've said before somewhere else recently, I don't expect a sailboat to ever acknowledge maneuvering signals or radio calls,*even*when they are as often as not*"legally" motorboats when*using their motors.* They're just part of the environment to be experienced.* I'll keep my expectations low.
 
Hey, settle down on the rag hangers! many of us came to the dark side from sail and are proud of all the actual seamanship we learned there, including proper radio protocol.
Sure there are those who are ignorant and wish to stay that way. Those will likely never make the move up the evolutionary ladder to our darker side.
The rest of them have my respect.
 
Were it not for the fickle winds we have in summer, the too-strong winds in winter, and the strong currents that are more often than not going the wrong way with regards to the wind, we'd very likely have a sailboat instead of a trawler. The problem in this neck of the woods that to get anywhere on any kind of a schedule, sailboaters are forced to motor some 80 percent of the time. With that being the case, it made more sense to us to get a boat designed to take advantage of being engine-driven.

But if this area had dependable winds that could be used to go where you wanted to go when you wanted to go there--- as in Hawaii, for example, where I grew up--- a sailboat of a design we like makes way more sense to us than a powerboat. Besides being aesthetically more pleasing to us than powerboats, the price of a gallon of wind is still pretty reasonable.

I had some sailing experience in Hawaii (as a crewmember, not with my own boat) and I crewed on a racing sloop for a couple of seasons in Seattle in the early 80s. I enjoyed sailing immensly and find it a much more interesting and challenging pastime than driving a powerboat, particularly a slow trawler-type powerboat.

But unless one just likes to meander around the bay in a sailboat--- or race--- they don't make a lot of sense for cruising in our waters in my opinion.
 
Marin wrote:

. I enjoyed sailing immensly and find it a much more interesting and challenging pastime than driving a powerboat, particularly a slow trawler-type powerboat.
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My 15 years of in-charge boating experience has been limited to sailboats (cutter and sloop), albeit with either an inboard or outboard engine.* Hopefully, trawler boating won't be too boring.*

*
 
Romeo that. We had two yachts, and prided ourselves on our seamanship and consideration for others on the water that many fizzboat (as we then called them) owners seemed not to have. However, Moreton Bay here off Brisbane is another area fantastic for motor cruising, but where the sun beats down, requiring good shade, and the channels are narrow, and the wind always in the wrong direction, even if there was room to tack, no most of it not suited to sailing, regretably, or we too would have a yacht. But a bigger, roomier one than the two we had in NZ, for sure....those creature comfits become more relevant the older you are, and the older your family is as well. Privacy is also relevant here, I'm sure many would agree.
The Y generation and later are intolerant of the snoring, breaking of wind and toilet smells one tends to share in a yacht....did I just say that? - it slipped out....
Oh yeah....Lotus out.

-- Edited by Peter B on Wednesday 15th of December 2010 01:22:22 AM
 


....and that was my original point...in addition to lat/long. *I have never heard them just give local reference points....I have never heard them give ANY local reference points...only lat/long.

*
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I have found the C/G quite willing to give you additional location information.* Several times, I have called back and asked for a geographic reference to a Lat Lon.* They might not have it immediately, but it doesn't take them long to come up with it************ (at least in Alaska).* My guess is that there is little space in the radio room for all the charts covering the huge area their transmitters cover.* If I was involved in a search, I would also ask for predicted set and drift of someone in the water as they have some sophisticated computer models to aid them.* Again though, I doubt this is immediately available to the radio operator as he must concentrate on communications first.* Can they improve?* Sure, we all can, but it's pretty easy to ask for more information if you need it.* Hopefully, if it's my butt in the water, anyone hearing a C/G broadcast will take enough interest to determine how far away they are and if they can help.* I know I always do the same.* Ten four good buddy, over and out.............Oh wait, never mind...........Arctic Traveller

*
 
I know a lot of you are from PNW, but for those of you on the East coast in the ICW, how to you converse with bridgetenders?

I usually just tune into their channel (13 or 9 in our area) and say the name of the bridge once.* "Little River Swing Bridge"

Then they usually answer "Little River Swing Bridge"

Then I say my intention "Little River Swing Bridge, this is power vessel Polly P. Southbound on the ICW, we are requesting your next opening please."

Bridge says "Polly P., next opening is 2PM"

I say "Roger 2PM"

then I say "Polly P. Out."

Then as we pass through I say "thank you bridge, have a nice day"

And they usually say, "Have a safe journey"

In case I might make it under a bridge I call ahead and ask the clearance at that time, since it can vary depending on tide.* They really appreciate it when you can get under without an unneccessary opening.

While we're on the topic, what is the radio exchange for a slow pass?* Do you switch to a working channel or just say on 16 "Hey how 'bout a slow pass" and the sail boat says "OK" and then it is all good....* Since it is so short I just yell at them on 16 and don't bother with the formality of switching to 68 just to say hey how 'bout a slow pass..*** Seems like most folks have been amenable to this method.
 
Egregious wrote:

I know a lot of you are from PNW, but for those of you on the East coast in the ICW, how to you converse with bridgetenders?

I usually just tune into their channel (13 or 9 in our area) and say the name of the bridge once.* "Little River Swing Bridge"




That is the way I contact the bridges.* Channel 9 in some states and 13 in others.* Egregious, how do you get the Socastee Creek swing bridge to answer?* He has been about the worst about responding.

Passing I will usually say Cap if you will slow down I will give a slow pass on the port.* They usually acknowledge and slow down.* Some don't.* That is my pet peave running the ditch.* If the conversation runs any longer, I will switch off to a working channel.* Never had the USCG have any problem with it. YMMV

Rather than changing direction on this thread, I think I will start a new thread on passing.
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Moonstruck wrote:



Egregious, how do you get the Socastee Creek swing bridge to answer?* He has been about the worst about responding.
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I think that Socastee is one of those that doesn't answer unless you use the*exact right*name, depending on the bridge tender.* I think you have to say "Socastee Swing Bridge" in that exact way otherwise they won't answer.* Anything else and they ignore you.* Most times I drove under (in a 19' Grady White).*

Hey if you want to hear some great stories, let me tell you about Sunset Beach.* That one bridge probably caused more boat traffic backups than any other on the entire east coast.** Clearance listed as ZERO, although locals knew how to get under in small boats, if the tide was right.* Even then, tricky as Hell because of the creeks pushing out water during a falling tide.*When that happens, unsuspecting yachts get pushed sideways just before the opening...*Those days are over as the new high rise is now open.

*
 
Egregious wrote:

I know a lot of you are from PNW, but for those of you on the East coast in the ICW, how to you converse with bridgetenders?
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We have drawbridges on the Ship Canal and Montlake Cut that connect Lake Union to the Sound and to Lake Washington.* Most sailboats need the bridges open, at least a bit.* I haven't been in these waters for years but when I used to crew on a racing sailboat that was kept on Lake Washington we went out to the Sound several times a year.* All communication with the bridge tenders was done by horn.* Each bridge had its own horn "code."* You would request an opening by horn and they would reply by horn.* Some of the bridges are pretty close together, hence the different horn signal for each bridge.

Usually they would open the bridge just enough to let your mast slide under and then they'd put the bridge halves back down.* This greatly reduced the time they held up traffic.

*
 
Believe it or not, in Texas on the ICW many of the bridges and locks have a number designation. I have no clue where it comes from....maybe the distance "West of the Harvey Locks" which is the unit of measurement of the GICW. But the Colorado River Locks are "411" I think and if you simply address him as "411" he will answer INSTANTLY!. If you call him by the full name, he may or may not answer. These number designations are in the GICW cruising guides.
 
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