Can you help to locate a boat?

Hello,
It seems that finding a passagemaker in my price range (sub 350K) is very daunting indeed. I have N62' dreams(!), or KK48', or Fleming 55' dreams, but not the budget. This boat will be my primary residence here in Asia, and will need to accommodate my wife and two pre-teen children. This means full kitchen, washer/dryer, separate heads, etc. I have considered Seahorse Marines' 52, and while it may be just the ticket, it doesn't feel like a home on the water. Before you mention the DD, i don't really like how much of the living space is like a sailboat -below the water line. Any suggestions from this esteemed crew will be greatly appreciated -and taken with a grain of salt
Thanks in advance!
-Dubnuh

Have you looked at Selene?

Hi there N4712, I have considered the Selene, but for the years that I could consider, the build quality concerns me.

Dubnuh said:

Hi there N4712, I have considered the Selene, but for the years that I could consider, the build quality concerns me.

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I'd be more worried about Sea Horse's quality vs the Selene. I believe they're good quality (not great) boats. Hopefully some Selene owners will chime in.

Where do you plan on cruising?

Here is a 52' Seahorse

I'm not impressed with Sea Horse's boats. They're was a thread awhile ago that showed some dodgy practices that I wouldn't want to be a part of. Just my observation. Why do you need a passage maker?

Curious where you want to take the floating condo to? Is this primarily a residence docked at a marina? Or are you planning on voyaging?


Looking at the boats you are considering, quick search of Yachtworld shows none below 440k. So unless you can beat someone down, you may have to change your expectations.

We still have a few more years of work ahead of us, hence the 'floating condo' but do have the ability for sabbatical, hence the passagemaker. In a few years time, the intent is to head south of the equator, then beyond )

As for the Seahorse concerns, it's good to have the opinions -thanks. I did read the dodgy thread on Seahorse marines poor welding on at least the one boat...not confidence inspiring to be sure.

Looking at the boats you are considering, quick search of Yachtworld shows none below 440k. So unless you can beat someone down, you may have to change your expectations.

Yes, this may well be the hard reality of it.

N4712 said:

I'm not impressed with Sea Horse's boats. They're was a thread awhile ago that showed some dodgy practices that I wouldn't want to be a part of. Just my observation. Why do you need a passage maker?

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I missed that thread. I'd be interested in reading it. Do you have a link? A quick search didn't find it. I have similar concerns based on a few photos of welds I've seen posted. Downright scary QA/QC.

Hi Northern Spy, I believe this might be the thread.

Northern Spy said:

I missed that thread. I'd be interested in reading it. Do you have a link? A quick search didn't find it. I have similar concerns based on a few photos of welds I've seen posted. Downright scary QA/QC.

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Here's the link.
http://www.trawlerforum.com/forums/s35/photos-duck-nest-17549.html

I'm not impressed with any aspects of they're boats. Be it fuel systems, electrical systems and everything in between.

Here's a picture from that boat that had an explosion or something along that lines.

I recall biting my tongue reading that thread. Some inexcusable welds and fitting in those photos. The thought of applying fairing compound to make them "right" made me lol. The undercut and arc strikes where amateur at best.

The OP in this thread seems interested in the fiberglass model so it really isn't worth the thread drift here though.

Increasing my budget somewhat (does that always happen?), I have located the following prospects and would appreciate your feedback.

Fleming 53

Selene 43

Krogen 48

Realising that these boats may not be the specific boats I can end up with, do you have comments or experience related to the models and years in question.

Very appreciated,
Dubnuh

When you talk about a "passagemaker", one consideration is range. Flemings are fine boats and have the range for many things, but they are in a very different range class than a Krogen or Nordhavn and I think also Seline. It's worth considering where you actually might want to go, and see what sort of range is required

Yes, absolutely! I know that the Flemings can be a swift trawler when the conditions require, but I am assuming that at a low burn rate commensurate with 6.5-7kNM, the 1,000gal. tankage would take me between most fuel stops. Maybe I'm delusional or misinformed on fuel burn rates?

Edit: I have just realised that Flemings are not mentioned in 'Voyaging Under Power, 4th Ed.'

No experience with any of them as they are all above my retirement pay grade. Gee, this kind of sounds like the HGTV of boats.

One key element you haven't mentioned is the sex of your two preteen kids. If they are the same sex, they MIGHT be able to share a cabin. Otherwise, it would dictate a three stateroom boat. That might knock the 43' Selene out of the running.

Kind of hard to get by the 9800 hours on the Cat 3208 on the KK. With that many hours, I don't think I would want to be out in the deep blue without a wing engine. Have read all kinds of numbers on the expected life of these engines but IIRC, the expected life is 12000-15000 hours. If I were making an offer on that boat, would price in a rebuild or repower as reputedly, the 3208 is a throw away engine. From the description, it sounds like the KK is two stateroom also.

The Fleming has two engines and three staterooms. The engine hours are half as high as the KK. The operating costs will be higher than the other two boats but there is some piece of mind in having 2 engines. Also, the Fleming would have less range than the other two vessels. The composition of the fuel tanks isn't mentioned and something that should be looked at.

So, if I had two preteen kids, I would probably be most interested in the Fleming but I like the other two boats a lot. Have seen the Selene from the dock at Fort Pierce and we like it a lot. I am certain we would like the KK too.

I'm certainly willing to entertain offers from Reality TV as long as it ends up covering the cost of the boat!

Yes, you've hit the nail on the head when it comes to the three stateroom requirement.

I had also incorrectly assumed that the diesels would be good for 20-22,000hrs so that insight is a good one, thanks!

Dubnuh said:

Hello,
It seems that finding a passagemaker in my price range (sub 350K) is very daunting indeed. Any suggestions from this esteemed crew will be greatly appreciated -and taken with a grain of salt
Thanks in advance!
-Dubnuh

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Questions:

• Where are you planning on cruising
• Maximum speed desired
• Have you traversed a few boat shows in NA
• What is your previous boating experience
• Are you a hands on do it your selfer
• Would a seaworthy vessel with only a 1500 mile range suffice.? If so many doors are then opened

$350K is not realistic for the type of vessels you have noted so far. And, a Fleming 55 is not of sufficient range to do +2000 nm.

How about a KK42?

Questions:
Where are you planning on cruising: We live in Asia -China now, maybe HK or Taiwan in the future, but will cruise primarily in the region.

Maximum speed desired: Speed is not a concern -but fuel economy is.

Have you traversed a few boat shows in NA: No, have not traversed my first boat show -i've been to inland shows, but not with true yachts.

What is your previous boating experience: I crewed as a kid on sail deliveries between FL & the VI, chartered a 52' Carver bare-boat as well as a 42GB bare-boat.

Are you a hands on do it your selfer: Hands-on, yup.

Would a seaworthy vessel with only a 1500 mile range suffice.? If so many doors are then opened: It would suffice in for the next 2-3yrs, but longer term plans include either the Sushi Run from Japan to Alaska, or a southerly route to Australia.

Alright, I'm happy to say that If we stay and cruise for the foreseeable future in the Asian zone,we can passage all the way down to New Zealand without breaking 1300knm. This should mean that as Sunchaser mentioned, many boats should should make the grade. Based on liveability under power, can I say that it must be a full displacement boat, or are SD boats in the mix now too?

Hate to throw cold water on your plans, but have you Seriously looked at ongoing costs of the kind of boat you are thinking of?
Unless you have a Great accountant, right off the bat is the sales tax, $35K; and 10% of that every year recurring. Ongoing maintenance and upgrades ~ $10-20K /yr. Slip fees about $1K a month. Insurance, a few thousand a year. Transient slip fees about $50 a night if you can find them.

Just had not seen this discussed yet and it is a significant amount over the years.

Delta_JimS said:

Hate to throw cold water on your plans, but have you Seriously looked at ongoing costs of the kind of boat you are thinking of?
Unless you have a Great accountant, right off the bat is the sales tax, $35K; and 10% of that every year recurring. Ongoing maintenance and upgrades ~ $10-20K /yr. Slip fees about $1K a month. Insurance, a few thousand a year. Transient slip fees about $50 a night if you can find them.

Just had not seen this discussed yet and it is a significant amount over the years.

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Wow, how much are the sales and use taxes in China, HK, and Taiwan? I would have thought docking, repairs and maintenance were less expensive as well.


Kevin
Portland, OR

Get the Fleming and work until you can afford to keep it.

Hi Delta_JimS, while it's not something I've overlooked, The associated costs of owning a large boat are somewhat ethereal to those of us on the Hard. Would you enlighten me as to your costs in these areas? I am thinking of yearly haul-outs, zinc replacements, monthly slip fees, insurance, boat washing, semi -annual waxing, property taxes, fuel, oil changes, spare parts, Satellite TV and satellite Radio. Can you elaborate on your situation there in California?
In fact, I'd really like to know everyone's expenses in these areas as it is sure to be helpful to all Noob's hoping to make a lifestyle change.
Thanks!

Dubnuh,

Sounds like you have it covered; and far deeper pockets than mine.....

As I have been looking at larger boats in the last year, several expenses that were previously not a concern begin to be.
I am a fan of the older Trawlers of heavy, solid fiberglass hulls and considerable teak.
I do my own washing (and occasionally waxing), oil change and engine maintenance; most everything but haul-outs. Fuel is a non-concern with a smaller single diesel. No TV or Sat Comm.

What I am finding with the older, larger boats is the following:
Twin engines = more cost of maintenance and fuel.
Bigger boats are more expensive to buy and thus effect overall Taxes, Docking, and general maintenance. Haul-outs will be near double the cost and harder to find and schedule.
Older, larger boats are Very expensive to insure for loss, almost not practical in my opinion. I would only carry just Liability which includes Environmental damage on a larger, older boat in my price range.

As I re-read your post, yours is intended as a primary residence and thus greatly impacts the calculation. As my Daddy used to say, he was Insurance poor from paying Insurance on everything and never collecting.(he never lived to see SS either....)
I have paid for Insurance for 30 years that I have never collected on. Today I pay full coverage on 4 houses, 2 vehicles and a boat - sure wish I had all that money invested in a good Hedge Fund instead!

Since you are going to live on her as a primary residence, house payments or rent and insurance are not an additional living cost and would be necessary on the boat instead.

Wish you all the best.

Sea Horse 52

When I started my search for a long range cruiser I fell in love with the layout and rugged build of my Hatteras 48LRC. The Sea Horse 52, which is a different boat than the photo posted has many of the design features of the Hatteras. The hull shape of the Sea Horse is well thought out with a round full midsection and flat aft section that extends to the end of the boarding platform. This give the hull great secondary stability without the rolly polly primary stability of the Nordhavns and KKs. It also gives it a little greater hull speed. The mechanical rigging was excellent, all electrical runs high and in conduit chases. the windows were all fitted for storm glass. I looked at at least four different boats including a twin engined version. One of the boats was in San Diego that had gotten there on it's bottom from China. All were powered with JD engines. The galley is a little tight compared to my Hatteras as is the other staterooms and heads. But very comparable to the KK48 North Sea and superior to the Nordhavn 46. The center master stateroom is by far the best location with a walk around center queen. I would give Salene the nod to workmanship when you talk about interior woodwork. The Sea Horse pretty much on par with KK and Nordhavn. KK has a hull shape that has been well proven and has remained pretty much the same throughout it's range of lengths. Salene has been all over he place with hull shapes. Nordhavn the gold standard has gotten there through incredible marketing. Flemming is a well made complex expensive boat that is way over my pay grade. My old Hatteras is an old well made complex boat, you had better be very handy when you live on a budget and get involved with complex boats. The KK and Sea Horse are simpler boats that in the long run are easier to maintain.

I don't know what I was thinking, but '80's trawlers are still above my budget
Reality bites

Donsan said:

Kind of hard to get by the 9800 hours on the Cat 3208 on the KK.

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I believe there are 7057 hrs on the engine of the KK48 in question.

Dubnah: have you had an opportunity to get on board any of these vessels?

The Fleming is considerably faster than the KK. They are very different vessels. The KK is probably more spacious as it is wider, but I don't recall the Fleming, if I have in fact been on one at one boat show or another.


Jim
Sent from my iPad using Trawler Forum

Hi JDCAVE, We haven't been aboard either, but we'll be doing a roadtrip vacation through New England this summer. The trip should give us plenty of opportunities to get our feet wet on a few.
Now, If I could only get these prices to fall...