Locking through locks

cappy208 said:

There is another concept entirely on commercial vessels. An entire round turn then figure 8s until you can fit no more on the bits and NO locking hitch (ever). The saying goes: a full bitt(cleat) is a happy bitt. Unfortunately most yachts have woefully undersized cleats.

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Yes, well, then the next time I'm on a vessel with massive bollards and 2"- 3" lines I'll remember that.

For cleats I'll stick with half a wrap, a cross over and a twist to finish.

Capt.Bill11 said:

Cleat Hitch - How to tie a Cleat Hitch

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I like to loop the bollard and tie to the midship cleat. This gives more control for adjusting and quickly freeing the line. I also keep a sharp knife handy. Bollards have been known to hang up with flotsom jammed around them.

>For cleats I'll stick with half a wrap, a cross over and a twist to finish.<

Since this will not release under high load all your crew ALL has sharp serrated knives ?

Or there is one lashed near every cleat?

The tug/barge pros know what works, and never tie a line that may need to be released under load.

Knot to get too hung up on this topic but I think what is missing is actually a statement of what is actually happening in a lock. Perhaps the term "tying up" should not be used in that it signifies more of a permanent securing of the vessel to the wall. While locking the lines should be used more like a spring line while docking one that is capable of being "worked" let out or in as necessary and held on the boat in a manner that allows another turn to put on or taken off always standing in a safe position - away from the stress points. The line should be capable of being checked down or given out as may be necessary. The boat is moving, not forward or backward but up or down and the line should be handled accordingly.

Fender question

Whats the right size fender for the locks??
We are starting the loop in May. We have been told to get the large Taylor buoys for the locks. My first purchase was the 27" buoys. They looked to big so I sent back and got the 21" version. They still look too big.

Capt Bill, I'm sitting here chuckling over your link. GW is a good deck hand, but seems to have trouble grasping the concept of tying a good cleat hitch. All I'm really concerned with is her getting us as close to the bollard as possible. Whether the tie to the bollard meets the "beautiful knot" criteria is secondary.

I've shown her how to do it, but in the heat of the moment all those demonstrations go out the window. And yes, she does have a very sharp serrated knife attached to her PFD in case the bollard jams.

Capt.Bill11 said:

Yes, well, then the next time I'm on a vessel with massive bollards and 2"- 3" lines I'll remember that.

For cleats I'll stick with half a wrap, a cross over and a twist to finish.

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My point was to inform others that there is another thought process which is completely different, borne of different circumstances, and the video (while well meaning) is NOT the only way to make a line fast on a cleat. Size of cleat or bitts is irrelevant. Locking hitches are NEVER used when a load will be applied that you absolutely, positively must be able to release. And there is NO other place I can think of besides locks, where the water is going to change at a great rate, and it frequently rips cleats and norman pins off boats when improperly made fast as your video indicates is the 'only' way to make a line fast.

2" ? 5"?? Try 9" or 10"! I can't even use 5" as tie up lines on my little boat.

fryedaze said:

Whats the right size fender for the locks??
We are starting the loop in May. We have been told to get the large Taylor buoys for the locks. My first purchase was the 27" buoys. They looked to big so I sent back and got the 21" version. They still look too big.

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Measure straight down from the rubrail the distance about a foot off the waterline. How far is the vertical line from the hull? I bet a 27" fender would tuck just fine in there.
You will find that under the flare of the bow the bigger one will be great. Further aft the smaller fenders will suffice. The issue is when the lock is filled with water, your topsides will overhang the rail on the bow. I assume your avatar pic is of your vessel. The fwd fender needs to be able to fend off down low (within maybe 1' of the surface, all the way up to the aluminum rub rail. That means a large ball. I got away with it by using one fender, and tying it in such a way that to adjust height, all the better half had to do was to lift the fender up and toss it over the adjacent stanchion to make it higher. However, had I to do it again (to make it easier on the boss) I would rather have used a polyball on the fwd position. Do you need two? Doubt it. On the good side, you can deflate them when you are finished and flatten them out for stowage.

On another boat that I use I have two polyballs 21" and I come alongside ships and tugs with it. No issues. They are actually stronger than the white 'taylor' fenders. Less blowouts.

GFC said:

GW is a good deck hand,
I've shown her how to do it, but in the heat of the moment all those demonstrations go out the window.

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Thus my comment earlier, a full bitt (cleat) is a happy bitt (cleat) meaning, even without the locking hitch more wraps will hold, regardless of how 'pretty' it is.

The greatest asset a captain can have other than instant flexibility...is a razor sharp crew with instant flexibility.

A pox upon ye all... from a novice that opened this thread seeking simple, concise, helpful information on those "scary" locks. But this is certainly not the thread for that! Lol. Sheesh.

(ducking and running)

FF said:

>For cleats I'll stick with half a wrap, a cross over and a twist to finish.<

Since this will not release under high load all your crew ALL has sharp serrated knives ?

Or there is one lashed near every cleat?

The tug/barge pros know what works, and never tie a line that may need to be released under load.

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Yes, in fact I do require my crew to carry knifes. Three per person. One on the calf, one on the waist and one on the upper arm. Plus they must wear steel toed Topsiders. Because, as you so correctly noted, we do have knifes fastened to each cleat. And as you can imagine I don't want any of the crew to stab their toes on those knifes. All our knifes are Ginsu by the way. Only top quality tools for us.

We have been cutting our lines pretty much every time we have left the dock due to there constant jamming on the cleat. But now that you've informed me of how the commercial fellows tie a cleat, around and around and over and over apparently till they run out of line, we can start saving a lot of money by not having to buy new dock lines all the time, thanks.

GFC said:

Capt Bill, I'm sitting here chuckling over your link. GW is a good deck hand, but seems to have trouble grasping the concept of tying a good cleat hitch. All I'm really concerned with is her getting us as close to the bollard as possible. Whether the tie to the bollard meets the "beautiful knot" criteria is secondary.

I've shown her how to do it, but in the heat of the moment all those demonstrations go out the window. And yes, she does have a very sharp serrated knife attached to her PFD in case the bollard jams.

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Glad you saw the humor in it. Because the link was posted a bit tongue in cheek.

But it might be safer if you can get her to loop it around the bollard once and lead it back to the boat.

fryedaze said:

Whats the right size fender for the locks??
We are starting the loop in May. We have been told to get the large Taylor buoys for the locks. My first purchase was the 27" buoys. They looked to big so I sent back and got the 21" version. They still look too big.

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My opinion is you almost can't have fenders that are to big. Plus in most cases bigger fenders are cheaper in the long run than paying for any damage that my occur if your fenders end up being to small.

fryedaze said:

Whats the right size fender for the locks??
We are starting the loop in May. We have been told to get the large Taylor buoys for the locks. My first purchase was the 27" buoys. They looked to big so I sent back and got the 21" version. They still look too big.

Click to expand...

Geez. I got two "Polyform 17" x 23", Boat Size: 40' - 50'" buoy fenders (17" being the diameter?). Now, I'm wondering whether my balls are big enough.

Fender size for a lock can be a whole lot smaller than what I would normally recommend as standard working fenders.

Hull shape and rub rail a also play a factor.

For my 40....17 inch all fenders would work for a lock and most mooring situations...too small for storm or offshore work.but that is so rare it is hard to justify carrying fenders that large except deflated and stored...a good idea.....

dwhatty said:

Good stuff. Keep it coming please, as we are doing the Erie, Oswego, Rideau, St. Lawrence, Chambly and Champlain locks next season.

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This is an old website but it has pictures of what you will be encountering.
welcome2

I am envious of your trip. Good luck and have fun!

One of the presenters at an old TrawlerFest said that she and her husband were very worried about the locks they would encounter on the loop. Their first lock was just terrifying but the lockmaster helped them through. The second lock was much less scary and the next 148 were just boring.

Hope all your locks are boring.

>My opinion is you almost can't have fenders that are to big.<

The crew must be able to reach the float to pass a line around a part of it.

Lassoing is fine for some, but too fat ball fenders could easily require longer arms than most folks have.

Seldom a problem as most folks refuse to PAY for really big ball fenders even though the can be deflated to store.

So it may be better to have smaller balls???


1983 Present 42 Sundeck
Twin Lehman 135's

You also may want to fender each side. There are a few places where you have to change sides per the lockmaster's instructions. Plus you never know where you may end tying up so we just kept them on both sides when we did the Erie, Champlain, Trent, Rideau, etc.
Also IF you have a dinghy on davits as we carry ours, I found a couple of spare seat floatation cushions and used one to protect the bow of the dinghy for those occasions where the bow floated out, and one for over the side f the dinghy that was aft to protect from the boats behind me. Yes they put you in that tight often in the Canadian locks.

Forkliftt said:

So it may be better to have smaller balls???


1983 Present 42 Sundeck
Twin Lehman 135's

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I think the key is just to have them one way or another.

So it may be better to have smaller balls??��

The diameter of the balls you need will depend on your FLAIR.

"The greatest asset a captain can have other than instant flexibility...is a razor sharp crew with instant flexibility."


Well put. I don't give GW any flack about how she ties us to the bollard...unless there is too much slack in the line and the boat is pushed around by the the movement of water in the lock.

She is quick to get the line on the bollard when I put the boat alongside, pulls the line taut and secures us quickly.

I believe in function over form. If it works, it's the right knot.

"But it might be safer if you can get her to loop it around the bollard once and lead it back to the boat."
IMHO, the bollard cleat is easier for her to reach and be able to keep both feet firmly planted and maintain good balance. If she had to bring the line back down to the dock cleat she'd have to bend over to do that. Given the walkways on our boat, she finds it's easier to compete the tie at the bollard. I don't see a problem with that, so that's how she does it.

"I found a couple of spare seat floatation cushions and used one to protect the bow of the dinghy for those occasions where the bow floated out"
Good justification for making that single line just as short as possible. With the line short, the boat is snugged up against the lock wall and neither the bow or stern is free to swing out.

dwhatty said:

Geez. I got two "Polyform 17" x 23", Boat Size: 40' - 50'" buoy fenders (17" being the diameter?). Now, I'm wondering whether my balls are big enough.

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Be careful. If balls are too large it can lead to some bad decisions.

GFC said:

""I found a couple of spare seat floatation cushions and used one to protect the bow of the dinghy for those occasions where the bow floated out"
Good justification for making that single line just as short as possible. With the line short, the boat is snugged up against the lock wall and neither the bow or stern is free to swing out.

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When you are in the bottom of the "Little Falls" lock for example, one is holding on the bottom of a (roughly) 42 foot long line attached to the top of the lock. You don't have enough leverage to keep the bow close once the water dumps in.
(plus those particular lock walls are in very rough shape...you don't want to be too snugged)

My strategy would be to move the round fenders closer admidship when "locking." Got two midship cleats per side.

I've only been thru locks #3 thru #25 on the upper Mississippi and all the locks on the Illinois River and cal sag to Lake Michigan. On many of the locks on the miss that I've been thru the lockmaster has let us float thru without handling lines, usually we were the only boat in the lock, a few times with 1 or 2 other boats. This occurs most often when locking down because it's not as turbulent in the chamber when they're draining water out compared to when water is filling the chamber. I also try to avoid pushing a wake into the chamber because it will keep bouncing back and forth and rocking the boat wether your floating or holding lines.