"The Ideal Passagemaker"

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N4712 said:
I saw one of these down a canal in Fort Lauderdale, not enough freeboard for my liking.
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I think that was Mojo. I had to talk myself out of buying that one. Now, I'm kicking my ass because I didn't.
 
hollywood8118 said:
Interesting...

Fiberglass boats MAY get blisters, Steal boats WILL rust

A lot of us have experienced the cave like living of a low,long sailboat at sea and at anchor... that is #1 on the reason why we switched to trawlering.. it sucks being in a cave.. might be the reason Man evolved to building houses with windows.


HOLLYWOOD
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Well said, again.
Dauntless' First Mate would certainly agree.

Early in my learning curve, I thought steel was superior, mostly because of ease of repairs. That's still sort of true, but if I had a 25 year old steel boat, I'd have to be on it at this moment, chipping away, instead of sitting in Queens eating Korean chicken wings and drinking soju and beer :)
 
sunchaser said:
Dan

To complement the JD 6068, the FPB 64s have get homes, around 100 HP and capable of moving the vessel at 7.5 knots using a Gori folding prop. Windhorse has twin JD 4045s.

Initially the 64s were designed without get homes, but owners balked so get homes were included in the design. The early 64s built without were retrofitted with get homes.
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:thumb:
 
Beebe and VUP are to blame for this whole passage maker thing. Before him passage makers were all sailors following in the footsteps of Slocum, Pidgeon, Dumas, Chichester, Rose, RKJ, Graham and Blyth. Nordhavn's very existence came about because Leishman thought Beebe was on to something and bet the farm on it.

Having seen Beebe's boat I much prefer Leishman's designs, although at the time I first read VUP, the Krogen's and Seaton's had the most proven pedigrees.

The first Nordhavn I ever saw in the flesh was in the 90's at the Miami show. It was the 62 and was I in love, or so I thought. Years later a boat show promo video of the 2003 NAR arrival in Horta finally convinced me. Watching Ken Williams dock Sans Souci (N62) along the wall in his bathrobe holding a cup of coffee is all I needed to see. I had done that trip on an Ocean 71, the biggest and the baddest fiberglass sailing boat ever built at the time. Times had clearly changed, and so had I.

Beebe, the Dashew's, Leishman et al are outside the box thinkers, and this is this kind of thinking that drives everything forward. We all have our preferences and some are different than others and this isn't necessarily a bad thing. These preferences become the goals we strive to achieve when defining our ideal passage maker. One thing I've learned over the span of my journeys, is that all too often, the best boat for the job at hand failed to even make the first cut. Never say never, cuz you might just be rethinkin your thinkin in a couple of years.

Hey Richard welcome back home!


Via iPhone.
 
cafesport said:
Beebe and VUP are to blame for this whole passage maker thing. Before him passage makers were all sailors following in the footsteps of Slocum, Pidgeon, Dumas, Chichester, Rose, RKJ, Graham and Blyth. Nordhavn's very existence came about because Leishman thought Beebe was on to something and bet the farm on it.

Having seen Beebe's boat I much prefer Leishman's designs, although at the time I first read VUP, the Krogen's and Seaton's had the most proven pedigrees.

The first Nordhavn I ever saw in the flesh was in the 90's at the Miami show. It was the 62 and was I in love, or so I thought. Years later a boat show promo video of the 2003 NAR arrival in Horta finally convinced me. Watching Ken Williams dock Sans Souci (N62) along the wall in his bathrobe holding a cup of coffee is all I needed to see. I had done that trip on an Ocean 71, the biggest and the baddest fiberglass sailing boat ever built at the time. Times had clearly changed, and so had I.

Beebe, the Dashew's, Leishman et al are outside the box thinkers, and this is this kind of thinking that drives everything forward. We all have our preferences and some are different than others and this isn't necessarily a bad thing. These preferences become the goals we strive to achieve when defining our ideal passage maker. One thing I've learned over the span of my journeys, is that all too often, the best boat for the job at hand failed to even make the first cut. Never say never, cuz you might just be rethinkin your thinkin in a couple of years.

Hey Richard welcome back home!

Via iPhone.
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Umm, I was half way thru this when I thought to myself, this sounds like Ed.

Even with Jim Leishman's contribution to PMUP, it was hard for them to hide the efficient design and thought that went into the Kadey Krogen.

But then, maybe we should put it to the test?

Know any Nordys willing to tackle the North Pacific in 2017?
 
The Ideal Passagemaker

Murray,

Thanks for posting this article and your links to your current favorites. I'm curious why you favor the designs you've identified, over something like the Artnautica 58 LRC ?

B0aJGEACQAA40R0.jpg:large


More info: https://www.facebook.com/pages/Artnautica-Yacht-Design-Ltd/300243140002724?fref=ts

MurrayM said:
My current favourites;

Tad Roberts Passagemaker Lite 46

PassagemakerLite 46, fast, seaworthy, fuel-efficient long-range ocean cruiser ~ Power Boat Designs by Tad Roberts

Michael Kasten Greatheart 48

Greatheart 48 - An Aluminum Trawler Yacht by Kasten Marine Design, Inc.
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twistedtree said:
Even setting aside $$, I still prefer the Nordhavn layout and arrangement over the FPB. First, I think the FPBs are butt ugly.
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While I tend to agree with the first Dashew FPBs being not the most beautiful of boats - I think they've finally started designing some better looking boats. Have you seen the new one that was just launched?

fpb-97-1-Iceberg-floating-free1.jpg
 
LRC58Fan said:
Murray,

Thanks for posting this article and your links to your current favorites. I'm curious why you favor the designs you've identified, over something like the Artnautica 58 LRC ?
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A matter of person taste, and both can rest on sand or mud (if the want/need arises) without using beach legs.
 
Wxx3 said:
Even with Jim Leishman's contribution to PMUP, it was hard for them to hide the efficient design and thought that went into the Kadey Krogen.
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When we bought, in another era (last century), we looked at Krogens and Nordhavns and decided to trade a little of the seaworthiness of the Nordhavns for the livability of the Krogens. Windows were larger on the Krogen, less resistant to heavy weather - need Lexan for a passage, but make the boat feel more open, Saloon was larger on the Krogen, but the larger space is trickier at sea as you can be thrown around. Certainly the Krogens can cross oceans, however, many of the compromises on the smaller Nordhavns were decided in favor of passagemaking and to a lesser extent livability with the opposite decision being made for the Krogens.

Love both boats, both are excellent, we are talking fine points and each owner gets to pick what is important to him or her (as with all boat purchases.)
 
Geez I had to chuckle seeing the Infinity thread just above this perfect passage maker discussion. What more does one want? Yeah I know we can fuss about the lack of ER space in the N62, or cave like innards etc. But for those of us that have spent some time on one, the Infinity and its stable mate the N57 are about as good as it gets in the million dollar used price range.
 
Bay Pelican said:
When we bought, in another era (last century), we looked at Krogens and Nordhavns and decided to trade a little of the seaworthiness of the Nordhavns for the livability of the Krogens. Windows were larger on the Krogen, less resistant to heavy weather - need Lexan for a passage, but make the boat feel more open, Saloon was larger on the Krogen, but the larger space is trickier at sea as you can be thrown around. Certainly the Krogens can cross oceans, however, many of the compromises on the smaller Nordhavns were decided in favor of passagemaking and to a lesser extent livability with the opposite decision being made for the Krogens.

Love both boats, both are excellent, we are talking fine points and each owner gets to pick what is important to him or her (as with all boat purchases.)
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I know I have drunk the KK kool aid, but after adding the lexan, which while still up, never got put to the test, I'm am still surprised that we never took any water over the bow.

The rise in the bow and the resulting free board, were far better thought out than I ever imagined.

I'm thinking of taking her out in some bad weather in March to see what happens.
 
Richard
Took Bay Pelican out in sort of controlled conditions in 15 ft seas. Not pretty, the humans were challenged but Bay Pelican did fine. A number of 55 degree rolls every time I made a mistake carving the waves.
 
Wxx3 said:
Know any Nordys willing to tackle the North Pacific in 2017?
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You know Rosa doesn't like cool temps that's why we left Maine after Labor Day. We'll probably be doing our hop from the southern hemisphere.



Via iPhone.
 
Wxx3 said:
Know any Nordys willing to tackle the North Pacific in 2017?
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Many Nordhavns have been there already including Sprague Theobald who did a great documentary on traversing the NW Passage in his N57. The North Pacific is standard operations if you are a commercial fisherman out of Alaska ports. Or for a friend of mine who did Dutch Harbor in his DeFever or better yet our own Ken Sanders.

Not a big deal, only time and planning but once beyond Kenai Peninsula lacking the fun to go places that exist in the North Atlantic IMHO.
 
cafesport said:
You know Rosa doesn't like cool temps that's why we left Maine after Labor Day. We'll probably be doing our hop from the southern hemisphere.



Via iPhone.
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What? The North Pacific is cool?:eek:

I better get that diesel heater installed:dance:
 
sunchaser said:
Many Nordhavns have been there already including Sprague Theobald who did a great documentary on traversing the NW Passage in his N57. The North Pacific is standard operations if you are a commercial fisherman out of Alaska ports. Or for a friend of mine who did Dutch Harbor in his DeFever or better yet our own Ken Sanders.

Not a big deal, only time and planning but once beyond Kenai Peninsula lacking the fun to go places that exist in the North Atlantic IMHO.
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All true. But the destination begs the route. A few years more to see what develops
 
Bay Pelican said:
Richard
Took Bay Pelican out in sort of controlled conditions in 15 ft seas. Not pretty, the humans were challenged but Bay Pelican did fine. A number of 55 degree rolls every time I made a mistake carving the waves.
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We'll have to talk. 55° is more than I have ever rolled and I didn't have stabilization for the first 3000 miles.

Also, I clearly underestimated the excellence of the ComNav autopilot.
 
dannc said:
I don't know of any SHM Ducks built with active stabilizers but I think some of the non SHM Ducks have had them installed. Active stabilizers costs lots of money, are one more complicated device to fail, are reported to be noisy, and they are needed on boats built with high windage boats that need superstructure to increase living volume. I just don't think they should be on boats sailing across oceans. I have not heard of any SHM Duck owner needing/wanting active stabilization. I think Bill Kimley(SHM) would have a seizure if someone wanted to install active stabilization in a SHM Duck. :rofl:

Most of the SHM Ducks do have paravane stabilizers but Bill will argue with you that they are not needed. :eek::D I want paravanes. :D

We were on a 462 last spring and unfortunately the weather was Chamber of Commerce perfect until we got close to the marina when we were hit with high winds blowing up the sound on our starboard beam. We might have had steep 3 foot waves on the beam but the Duck did not notice. We saw a small planning boat that we thought for sure was going to get swamped because of the waves. That boat rolled a good 45 degrees port and starboard a few times and looked like she was going over. I only mention the smaller boat to describe the wind and wave conditions. The Duck was not bothered at all by the beam wind and waves and no paravanes deployed. We had hoped for really bad weather so we could see how the Duck behaved, instead we just had to enjoy the glorious weather. :rofl:

The Dashew FPBs dont have get home engines and the "smaller" FPB 64 only has a single engine. Get home and twin engines are problematic as the Dashew's point out.

Sails actually make sense since they are fairly reliable, sorta cheap, extend range, and provide stability. Sails can be used all of the time while a get home engine gets used when? The get home engine just sits there and hopefully gets run to make sure it works if needed. A Duck that did have engine problems, due to owner installed out of spec fuel filters, was able to sail back to port.

I really don't get why people want plastic hulls for full displacement boats. I read all of the problems with fiberglass and scratch my head in wonder. At least with metal, if the boat is built right, you get a far better hull. I don't have to worry about blisters, fatigue, keels falling off, or boat structure failure. The Ducks have multiple water tight compartments and are built like tanks. They have sat on reefs for weeks, ran into ice bergs, and hit rocks at 10+ knots with no damage to the hull. One of the Ducks was hit by a ship that got loose from a nearby ship yard and the damage was limited to the Ducks paint job. SHM fixed the paint job and you can't find where the hit happened. These kind of incidents to a plastic boat would have been very expensive to fix, if the boat was not out right totaled/sunk. There is an old aluminium sail boat, whose owner is active on the Cruising forum, that is mentioned in a very old issue of Metal Boat Society. The MBS article is about the boat hitting a log raft in the PNW while sailing at night. No damage to the boat. Would a plastic boat survive that sort of incident?

My two cents is that the Ideal Passamaker is a not very beamy, single engine, with a limited sail plan, a pilot house with galley in the hull, limited windage topside, stand up engine room, paravanes, no need for active stabilization, stern master stateroom, and a metal hull. Unfortunately, I only know of one boat brand/desigh in production that meets these requirements.

I don't like active stabilization which I think is obvious from this post, :D but in spite of that angst, I do like the Dashew's FPB. If money were no object, the FPB would be very tempting but I suspect I would still want a Duck. I think. Maybe. :rofl:

Later,
Dan
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I've noticed that the only people who have an adverse opinion of active stabilizers are those that don't have them. Everyone else wouldn't leave home without them. Expensive, yep. Noisy, no. Complicated, not really, or at least no more so that supporting passive fin stabilizers.

I particularly like the fact that with active fins, my martini doesn't slop out of the glass.
 
Delfin said:
I particularly like the fact that with active fins, my martini doesn't slop out of the glass.
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I'd have them on my 27' Owens if I could. What's not to like about technology that reduces needless alcohol waste. :)
 
I have Wesmar stabilizers on my new to me boat and they where one of the reasons I bought this boat. I absolutely love them. The only way I know they are on is to look at the lights on the control panel. No noise, just silently doing the job. I totally ignore boat wakes now, just go straight ahead even with ferry wakes.


With the previous boat, my wife would insist on tacking across any hint of beam seas. She even let me cross the Strait of Juan de Fuca this summer. First time since we owned a sailboat.
 
Delfin said:
I've noticed that the only people who have an adverse opinion of active stabilizers are those that don't have them. Everyone else wouldn't leave home without them. Expensive, yep. Noisy, no. Complicated, not really, or at least no more so that supporting passive fin stabilizers.

I particularly like the fact that with active fins, my martini doesn't slop out of the glass.
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For that reason alone my next one really will have active

our friends Viking is just amazing no martini or coffee spills
 
Another big plus vote for active fins. The PO told me that I needed to lay down the salon coffee table before leaving the dock. Well, not any more. And no more spilt drinks either. Performance far better than paravanes, which aren't all that cheap to fit either, are ugly and can be a hassle using and retrieving.

Active fin critics included the latest edition of Beebe's classic book - obviously by someone really out of date and lacking in knowledge of how well active fins perform and how little noise or maintenance there is with a good install of modern units.
 
Bay Pelican has active stabilizers and I am a big fan. However, for crossing oceans I question their reliability. As the 2004 Nordhavn rally showed the active stabilizers then on the market were not engineered to operate for ten consecutive days without stopping. Since 2004 the manufacturers have beefed up their units.

Have not heard of any problems using the paravanes for passages.
 
I can only echo what ya'll said, they're AWESOME!
 
Bay Pelican said:
Bay Pelican has active stabilizers and I am a big fan. However, for crossing oceans I question their reliability. As the 2004 Nordhavn rally showed the active stabilizers then on the market were not engineered to operate for ten consecutive days without stopping. Since 2004 the manufacturers have beefed up their units.

Have not heard of any problems using the paravanes for passages.
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Exactly.

In researching for what we needed, before I even heard of Krogen, what stood out to me was the above.

Not one Nordy was able to run their hydraulic stabilizers 24/7 without a breakdown before arrival.

For us, that settled that issue.

Even Sprague on his annoying NW Passage account, had multiple problems.
But, he had the typical Nordy backup system, just have the the parts airlifted to a small arctic village.

Works for some; just not me.
 
Richard, I seem to recall your para vanes had issues.

For discussions about stabilizers, it is as noted previously, an issue of the haves vs have nots. I could regale you with my personal experiences of thousands of ABT or Wesmars trouble free miles but why. I'll let the pros do it. Read setsail or the Nordhavn websites. And if one is fortunate, talk with Mr Dashew or the Leishmans about why they embrace actives.

A good friend of mine has actives on his KK42, happy as a clam with 7000 hours and climbing. Even worse he doesn't have a Lehman! :hide:
 
A well designed Scotch Whisky glass does not need stabilization.

Martinis most definitely do. In my hands anyway.
 
Good posts above. Important points are that the Nordy 2004 rally issues were ten years ago. That's a really long time in regard to engineering. It may have been what triggered the big improvements.

Nordy's are tall, top-heavy boats. Could it be that the ones that had issues had active fins that were too small for the job. Undersize and overload anything and failures will occur.

Also, Richard had a issues with his paravanes - bent pole for starters. But the killer is that they just don't work anywhere near as well. Perhaps not a complete waste of money, but definitely a poor second choice.
 
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