What would you give for more time?

Good discussion.
More than 20 years ago the Wall Street Journal had an article on the same issue.

The conclusion was Americans opted for more money versus time off.

I think they even gave the example of an American who will buy a boat with the extra money and then only have two weeks a year to use it.

All my European friends have a much less ostentatious life style, no matter their income level, then most Americans.

For me, I was fortunate, I was forced to stop working. It seemed terrible at the time, we certainly had less money, but within months, I realized it was the best thing that ever happened to me.

Do you live to work, or work to live?
That said, there are times the emphasis shifts to work, to provide for later.
I sold my sailboat while I was working, there was no time to use it. Retired, I bought a power boat. Now on my second one, grateful my working life could provide me with one, and my retirement allows the time to enjoy it.

ksanders said:

Actually I've spent most of my career working only 5 1/2 months a year.

Click to expand...

Are you hiring?

Great topic because I'm at that "how-much-is-enough" stage. I retired once and came back for an offer too good to refuse. When my brother died unexpectedly last year, it put a much finer point on the question of time for me.

Interesting discussion. How much is enough. Well, I certainly don't have anything like I imagined I'd have by the time I retired, but this year I dropped to a 4 day week anyway. I don't work mondays now, and I'm luvin' it..! Even tho money's tighter, there is no way I want to go back to even a 37 hour week. However, the price I will pay for that, and enjoying life more - more to the point being able to afford to visit son & family in London, is the boat has to go. I'll let you know how that works out.

However, as an aside, you US people are quite mad. You do have the worst industrial relations regulations in the world I suspect. Here in the antipodes the usual is now 3-4 weeks annual leave a year, plus public holidays. Many jobs have more, e.g. 5-6 weeks. That's what I would enjoy if I was a salaried hospital type Specialist. In fact one of the downsides to being so-called self employed is you get none of the entitlements that wage & salary earners get, which now includes compulsory long service leave and superannuation here, on top of the sick and recreational leave. I can't believe you have no mandatory minimum holiday leave across the board. In my next incarnation, I want a salary. Self-employed be damned. Unless one inherited a nice viable business maybe...

Spent many a year comparing working situations among the countries of North America and Europe. Found that a better comparison is to ignore the mandatory days off and look at the hours actually worked, worked not paid. My clients, mostly smaller companies in the US, were finding their hourly employees were on the job less than 1,500 hours across a 52 week 40 hour work week (2080 hours). 580 hours were not worked which would translate into 14 1/2 weeks off. Of course some/much of this was not paid time off.

Bay Pelican said:

Spent many a year comparing working situations among the countries of North America and Europe. Found that a better comparison is to ignore the mandatory days off and look at the hours actually worked, worked not paid. My clients, mostly smaller companies in the US, were finding their hourly employees were on the job less than 1,500 hours across a 52 week 40 hour work week (2080 hours). 580 hours were not worked which would translate into 14 1/2 weeks off. Of course some/much of this was not paid time off.

Click to expand...

Your clients were unique then. Overall US employees were several hundred hours a year more than European.

BandB said:

Your clients were unique then. Overall US employees were several hundred hours a year more than European.

Click to expand...

Don't dispute that at all, key here was hourly. When you add in the salaried workers the US was higher.

Bay Pelican said:

Don't dispute that at all, key here was hourly. When you add in the salaried workers the US was higher.

Click to expand...

Yes, it's amazing the percentage of people in the US working part-time jobs. It's certainly a very common retail strategy, traditionally used to avoid providing benefits. But for those in full time jobs, they simply work a lot of hours.

One of the ironies too is that the higher you rise in position, the greater the hours and stress. You'd think those at the top could certainly reduce their workload but they don't. It's not the American way. We've come to judge how good an employee is based on the hours they spend working. I know had I not met my wife I would have continued even though no one expected it of me. It was my background and training that led me to work excessive hours. In teaching me to have a good "work ethic" my parents didn't teach me to balance my life.

I really feel for parents today who are missing out on their kids lives. And it starts with birth. How many men take paternity leave and spend that first month or six weeks with wife and baby, sharing the load? I remember the first male employee I granted and encouraged to take such a leave. 10 years later he and his wife still kept thanking me. Maybe we'd have a bit less post partum depression.

I think everyone has to find what is right for them and not do what they think others expect them to or think they should. If you want to work extra years, fine. If you want to cut back hours, fine.

I once turned down a job making many times what I was making. So, we followed with curiosity what took place with the guy who took it. Well, from day one he was involved in the infighting on the board. He wasn't allowed to do what needed to be done. He lasted almost two years of misery but made a ton of money and then was given a monstrous golden parachute ride out. He was a mental and physical wreck after those two years though. Six months later his wife divorced him. While he'd been working 70-80 hours a week, she'd found someone else. If my wife and I had ever needed proof that we were smart to say "no" we had it. How much money will it take to make one go through two years of torture? I know I couldn't have handled the idiocy going on there.

When is it "enough?" I don't know. Each person has to decide. But I know a good many people making a lot of money who are miserable. And the ones who say they're doing it all for the family and kids, to provide an education and start in life, but then all the kids remember is they were never there.

Interesting US labor statistic, all employees:

"For example in the U.S in the late 19th century it was estimated that the average work week was over 60 hours per week.[21] Today the average hours worked in the U.S is around 33,[22] with the average man employed full-time for 8.4 hours per work day, and the average woman employed full-time for 7.7 hours per work day.[23]" (Bureau Labor Statistics).

While this includes all employees it is unclear how they measure this. (From Wikipedia)

angus99 said:

Are you hiring?

Great topic because I'm at that "how-much-is-enough" stage. I retired once and came back for an offer too good to refuse. When my brother died unexpectedly last year, it put a much finer point on the question of time for me.

Click to expand...

Yes, in general we are always hiring!

All skill sets, trades, and professions.

Bay Pelican said:

Interesting US labor statistic, all employees:

"For example in the U.S in the late 19th century it was estimated that the average work week was over 60 hours per week.[21] Today the average hours worked in the U.S is around 33,[22] with the average man employed full-time for 8.4 hours per work day, and the average woman employed full-time for 7.7 hours per work day.[23]" (Bureau Labor Statistics).

While this includes all employees it is unclear how they measure this. (From Wikipedia)

Click to expand...

There are other stats more reflective. The problem with those stats is you're mixing part time and full time. It includes students as well. And there are questions about how it reflects people with multiple jobs. It appears to simply be total hours by total of employees. And it even combines different things in one paragraph. The 33 hours clearly includes part time and then right behind that it says average full time 8.4 hours. Now that's more consistent with other numbers I've seen that show average full time non-exempt worker (hourly) 42 hours a week. Then how do you capture salaried employees where no time records are kept. And one thing we see is that while companies control overtime for hourly employees they would have to pay extra, they encourage it on salaried employees.

The one thing though that is fairly certain is that full time salaried employees work more hours per week in the US than Europe and work more weeks per year.

Meanwhile more hourly, or non-exempt, employees are finding themselves working part time jobs and sometimes more than one. Mass merchandisers and groceries are the leaders in that move. Depending on the state, just looking at wages, it's been considerably less costly to have two 20 hour workers than one 40 hour worker. A typical scenario is two 20 at $9 per hour and 10% fringe benefit cost is $396 per week. One 40 hour worker at $11 per hour and 25% fringe benefit cost is $550 per week.

I worked my way up in the electric utility industry from a groundman thru lineman/wireman and into mid management as assistant manager. At the ripe old age of 35 I was passed up for the manager position. I was devastated. Then I watched as the new manager got eaten alive by his position and decided I really didnt want that. Then I realized I really didnt like this carreer choice anymore. Then my best friend and mentor died (the old manager) after having worked his entire life looking forward to retiring and travelling with his wife. He had just bought a nice motorhome. It never left, he never went, his wife sold it. I decided then to do what I loved, BirdHunt. I started a upland hunting operation and operated it for 15 years. We hunted from North Dakota to South Texas, mostly on horseback and I loved ever minute of it. If you make money doing what you love you never work a day in your life. We had lots of tough times and more good times. After 5 years I sold it to a group of east coast attornies and worked for them awhile (still do occasionally). The best thing was I had summers to spend with my boys and we fished a lot. Boats have always been a part of my life. Basically I retired at 42 and just kept having fun and got paid well for it. I still spend my summers on the water and fall in the field. I dabble in charter fishing a bit as long as its fun. I guess to answer the originall question, I never thought about working more or getting more time off. I thought about doing what made me happy and in so doing provided a better life for my family (and especially myself).

I left a twenty-five year union gig a few years back to start ny own business at fifty-three years old. Over the course of the past few years I've gained nothing but respect for anybody that has the balls to set out on their own. In my previous life I would normally get six to eight weeks vacation time throughout the year; now I'm lucky if I can find six consecutive days free. My new situation has seriously impacted my boating time; gone for now are the three week cruise holidays up the BC coast. All that being said self-employment has been rewarding beyond measure, though not necessarily always in a financial sense. I recall being stuck at the shop at 2am pushing for a very tight delivery the next day and feeling really quite exalted in the fact that I had done it; I was busy enough that I had to work all night. This was a good thing.
Obviously at this stage of the game I can't throttle back on my hours, I do look forward though to the point where we're steady enough with the workflow that I can bring somebody in to spell me off for the occasional week or so and get back on the water for more extended periods.
Until that time I'll be relegated to daytrips and the odd long weekend; and at this time I wouldn't have it any other way. - Boyd

time

many times at my fabrication shop customers have said" ill pay extra to have it done over the weekend" and i reply i ll do it for free if you can give me the "time" back

BandB said:

…….Depending on the state, just looking at wages, it's been considerably less costly to have two 20 hour workers than one 40 hour worker. A typical scenario is two 20 at $9 per hour and 10% fringe benefit cost is $396 per week. One 40 hour worker at $11 per hour and 25% fringe benefit cost is $550 per week.

Click to expand...

Crikey…what kind of worker in the US would work for those rates..? Even school cleaners would be paid more than that as an hourly rate here in Oz. Most Aussies wouldn't cross the road for those rates. No wonder many don't take holidays…

Coming back to my previous post, however, and picking up on what you raised earlier, and also by dannc, when we are finally boatless, is probably when we will do the sensible thing and charter. To visit those places where it was just too far and too time-consuming to take our own boat. Thinking of the Whitsundays here in North Queensland, but also down in the Sydney area, maybe NZ, and when over in Europe visiting family. Perhaps a canalboat in France...maybe even the US on the way over.

Actually we did have a week in a narrowboat in the UK in 2011, and it was fantastic. So although I will miss puddling around doing stuff on my boat, (I've done the major stuff), those options while travelling will compensate - I hope..!

Peter B said:

Crikey…what kind of worker in the US would work for those rates..? Even school cleaners would be paid more than that as an hourly rate here in Oz. Most Aussies wouldn't cross the road for those rates. No wonder many don't take holidays…
!

Click to expand...

The mean rate in the US for a retail sales associate is $12.20 and the median is $10.16. The mean for food preparation including fast food is $9.08 and the median is $8.81.

BandB said:

The 33 hours clearly includes part time and then right behind that it says average full time 8.4 hours. .

Click to expand...

The average full time working 8.4 hours is consistent with the 1500 hours per year. The key is how many days does he work. The discussion started with the difference in vacation policy in the United States and Europe. My comment was that it was important to compare actual hours worked, not formal vacations given.


My clients' hourly employees were making full use of holidays, vacations, sick days, personal days and FMLA (Family Medical Leave Act) which permits up to 12 weeks (480 hours) of leave for covered reasons. When they worked they worked the average 8 hours as cited by the Bureau.

BandB said:

The mean rate in the US for a retail sales associate is $12.20 and the median is $10.16. The mean for food preparation including fast food is $9.08 and the median is $8.81.

Click to expand...

That's slave labour rates. No wonder they have to depend on tips...

Peter B said:

That's slave labour rates. No wonder they have to depend on tips...

Click to expand...

Retail and fast food don't get tips though. And, yes, it's bad.