A rudder to be thankful for

We put Klee Wyck on the hard for some minor work yesterday. Check out the size of the rudder compared to the size of the human. I am always glad to have this in tight quarters. Interested in other rudder pics on single engine boats. Also, my wheel is seven full turns form hard over to hard over with a fairly large wheel. Any comments on that? Seems like a lot.

Mine's about the same, lock to lock.

36" wheel...

Reminds me of the rudder on my sailboat (Allied Mistress 39). About as tall as I am. And let the sailboat turn on a dime. The Gulfstar rudders seem to be toys by comparison . . . have to depend on the twin engines more than the rudders when traveling at idle speed. Oh well. No one ever promised me a rose garden, I guess.

Nothing like a big rudder! Mine only takes 3 turns pin to pin which is handy for quick manoeuvers.

Best I got but sure miss that big sailboat rudder at idle speeds. 5 turns lock to lock.

Believe it or not, under all that bottom paint that rudder is solid bronze.

Willy's rudder has plenty of authority from size and a 90 degree swing. She responds fairly well after she's taken out of gear. Was 5 turns LTL (35 degrees each way) but I used a different attach point on the rudder's horn to have a complete rudder swing in a little under 3 TLTL and 45 degrees each way. Much less twirling the helm in the harbor, much sharper turns and great stern sea control w minimal effort. But big following seas still require some working of the helm. Steering is Sea Star Capalano hydraulic.

22" wheel --- 5 turns lock to lock, seems to work fine

By the way prop treated 12 months ago with Propspeed and wiped with a rag twice during the year.

To the Propspeed comment: Based on prior comments on this forum, I asked for it at this yard and they replied that it was temporarily unavailable and offered an alternative which I do not remember at the moment. I went online to Fisheries Supply and then WestMarine. Fisheries supply lists it as discontinued but WM lists products called PropSpeed from two manufacturers. Any idea what the deal is and who makes the 'real' Propspeed?

Me-thinks Basset Hounds in deep snow are not thankful for their 'rudders'.

48x20 rudder, 40x23 prop on 3" shaft, 2x6 bronze shoe (runs the entire length of the keel). Helm is Capilano 275V with 3.5 turns lock-to-lock (adjustable). Handles great, but shifting the rudder lock-to-lock takes time.

Although with props being close to rudders, turning at nearly any speed creating prop wash, these relatively small rudders do track fairly well; I don’t touch the wheel, leaving rudders parallel to hull, in all really close quarters. Also, at very slow <2 knots canal crawl rudders are seldom used for steering. Per screw: Forward, neutral, reverse with applicable rpm adjustment each engine lets me handle our Tolly similar to a full track tractor. Having piloted singles; I appreciate twins.

For less than idle speed I love my trolling valve. I'd prefer a CPP like I had on my Romsdal many years ago, but obviously the refit cost is prohibitive!

Rudder on our N62 INFINITY.

Normally actuated by hydraulic pump & 'Jog' lever, 6.85 secs LTL
7 turns LTL, handraulic.

nemier said:

Normally actuated by hydraulic pump & 'Jog' lever, 6.85 secs LTL

7 turns LTL, handraulic.

Click to expand...

I read a while back that Wind Horse uses only a jog - no wheel - because of response speed. I might look into that.

In fact, I've also been thing about adding a thruster. The Army tug I mentioned in my Gig Harbor thread had one and I didn't realize it until he mentioned it. Hydraulic with a proportionate valve - very, very nice and not embarrassing in use.

nemier said:

Rudder on our N62 INFINITY.

Normally actuated by hydraulic pump & 'Jog' lever, 6.85 secs LTL
7 turns LTL, handraulic.

Click to expand...

Andy, Julie - that photo looks futuristic! Cool design, for sure!

Cheers Art!
The photo unfortunately does not do it justice, no scale there, it's huge. I have a 5' arm span and I have to use all of it to span across from leading edge to trailing edge when I clean the sucker. The leading edge indent will accommodate the necessary clearance when you want to pull the shaft (perish the thought,,,).

Refugio,
our N62 has a hydraulic proportional stern thruster - 25 HP - continuous duty. Makes me look like a Rock Star when docking. (I need it!)

I know the OP asked for pics of rudders on single engine boats - but thought I would post these pics of the fiberglass Great Harbour "Fishtail Rudders" that we have been installing on our trawlers since about 2004. 60% smaller turning circle at cruise speed than the old flat-plate steel rudders.

nemier said:

Cheers Art!
The photo unfortunately does not do it justice, no scale there, it's huge. I have a 5' arm span and I have to use all of it to span across from leading edge to trailing edge when I clean the sucker. The leading edge indent will accommodate the necessary clearance when you want to pull the shaft (perish the thought,,,).

Click to expand...

Andy - Maybe you could Photoshop a pict of "The Hulk" slightly bent over flexing in front of it. Lou had plenty muscles but was not too tall. That visual should get the point across!!

kraftee said:

I know the OP asked for pics of rudders on single engine boats - but thought I would post these pics of the fiberglass Great Harbour "Fishtail Rudders" that we have been installing on our trawlers since about 2004. 60% smaller turning circle at cruise speed than the old flat-plate steel rudders.

Click to expand...

Any perceptible change in RPM to speed... or fuel-use to distance traveled with fishtails?

None that we can detect. Obviously, these rudders create some additional drag - you wouldn't want to use them on a planning hull, but this doesn't really factor in at the displacement speeds our boats are capable of. In fact, we have upgraded many older boats for our owners and all have been thrilled with the new rudders - both performance-wise, and the fact that they don't corrode like steel rudders!

Old School's prop & rudder from survey in 2008.

Oliver's prop and rudder.

Here's Boomarang's rudder, coated with PropSpeed last time. I mostly use the Simrad autopilot and jog-stick while underway. The hydraulic steering is 5 turns LTL and I have gotten really spoiled with the follow-up jog lever. It is mounted on a Ram ball mount and can be extended to the upper steering station for use there too. Serious overkill ($1,250) but really worth it.

nemier said:

Refugio,
our N62 has a hydraulic proportional stern thruster - 25 HP - continuous duty. Makes me look like a Rock Star when docking. (I need it!)

Click to expand...

And no bow thruster? Or one of those as well?

With neither, I can only change heading by a blast ahead, which of course pivots 1/3 of the way aft on the waterline. If I have my dinghy on the stern, I swing a big (and vulnerable) ass relative to my size - and that makes me very reluctant to go into tight spaces.

So I really want to move the bow without moving the stern as much, and I assumed that would mean a bow thruster, but I'm open to ideas. I have hydraulics for my windlass, but it's insufficient to run what I'm guessing would be an 8hp bow thruster. I could also see adding thrusters at both ends but now that's turning into a huge project.

LarryM said:

I mostly use the Simrad autopilot and jog-stick while underway. The hydraulic steering is 5 turns LTL and I have gotten really spoiled with the follow-up jog lever. It is mounted on a Ram ball mount and can be extended to the upper steering station for use there too. Serious overkill ($1,250) but really worth it.

Click to expand...

oK, that got me poking into jog levers. I have a Cetrek 930 autopilot over my hydraulic steering. I point the boat, hit "on", and sit back. I use the rotary knob to ease around things, and have only used the jog buttons once. I have a remote station and handheld, but have never installed it. And there was a "proportional jog lever" at an eye-popping $1K that I never purchased. I just found a listing on the web for one NOS in Croatia for $200eu, but it's been sold.

So now I'm on the hunt...Puget Sound Instruments guy who deals with autopilots hasn't a clue, says to call ComNav. OK, ComNav has a jog switch - will it work with my autopilot? Tech there says theirs is a "bang-bang" switch - I can try shorting the port and starboard wires to the common and seeing if it moves the rudder. If it does, their NFU switch will work...but the switch that was sold for my autopilot is "proportional", so...per this Navitron page, I want a FU (also FFU) switch.

Now I get onto another jog dial manufacturer's support page, and calling them links me to one of the best techs I've ever talked to, period. What I'm really looking for is a switch with a potentiometer - when set in the middle range the rudder is amidships, less is one direction, more the other. I can buy their switch (it's in the $500 to $1K range - I'm deliberately being coy here) and hope that it works, or I can buy a corresponding potentiometer and try it myself first. We exchange a couple of emails, and a while later I end up with the schematic to their controller and the ca.mouser.com link to the 1K ohm linear precision potentiometer they use. I can get a (non-precision but still high quality) potentiometer with the same specs locally for $8.

If that works, then I just have to figure out how to gear 1 full turn down to a lever that rotates through about 60 degrees. And find a way to incorporate an "engaged" switch, a center return spring?, and maybe an "on" light, and then the plug for the Cetrek.

Damn, I really wish that unit in Croatia were still available!

kraftee said:

I know the OP asked for pics of rudders on single engine boats - but thought I would post these pics of the fiberglass Great Harbour "Fishtail Rudders" that we have been installing on our trawlers since about 2004. 60% smaller turning circle at cruise speed than the old flat-plate steel rudders.

Click to expand...

Kraftee, that's exactly what I've envisioned on my twin Californian. Looks like the perfect solution for twin prop protection and enhanced maneuverability. Beautiful!!

Art.
Of course there will be more drag and speed lost or an rpm and fuel burn increase. Big rudders right in the middle of the propwash trying to pull the boat backwards.

It's interesting how so many talk about fuel efficiency but think nothing of increasing drag or weight.

Just a bigger rudder will probably have less drag. But lots of commercial boats (helmsman not paying for fuel) have them and they are effective.

Eric

When cruising the Delta, remember it is CA where bragging rights go back to the early hot rod era. "Mine is bigger or prettier than yours" is a common refrain in that locale.

I acknowledged that big fishtail rudders would certainly increase drag. But when you are talking about displacement speeds - in the real-world, with less than perfectly clean hulls, it's really only of minimal effect. We have retrofitted at least half a dozen Great Harbours from their original flat steel rudders to the new 'glass ones. NONE of the owners reported any noticeable change in economy or speed

I mean, even if one were able to detect a slight decrease in fuel economy, for many folks it's a welcome tradeoff for the increased maneuverability at cruise AND at the dock. With the fishtails, it is a simple matter to walk the boat sideways away from the dock - without touching the bow thruster.

However, if absolute fuel economy is your overriding concern, perhaps the higher drag rudders wouldn't appeal to you. We all have different priorities.

ERIC