Prop anti-fouling treatments-is it worth it?

fstbttms,
Thanks for the confirmation. When I see boats hauled most seem to be sporting bronze .. or what's left of bronze to see.

I got the idea of Armor All as I bought an old Buick and the PO bathed the car in AA. on the freeway in the rain the water beads up and streams away. That was over 12 years ago and it still does. I thought if it hung in there at 70mph air speed it may work on my prop. Lots of fouling can occur in Alaska but about half as much as in Washington state. I've put the AA on every time I was out for the last 8 years or so and never had a barnacle but I don't know if the prop would have gone clean w/o the AA. But it only took a minute to apply so why not. Anybody else done it? I've mentioned it before on TF.

No Eric but am considering doing it at the next haul out. We don't exactly have a barnacle problem in the freshwater Delta so won't be much info for you saltwater guys. I get more general slime that's easily removed with light agitation and a good run at speed.

Craig,
The only service the Armor All provides is (hopefully) a surface that is slick enough to prevent growing things from attaching themselves to the prop or whatever. Not poisonous at all .... that I know of.

It could be tested if we had some way of testing the slickness of a propeller blade. Then it would be simply put the stuff on, measure it's slickness and then again at next haulout.

But I guess our boat can't be called "Slick Willy" any more.

Barnacle Zapper

Recently I heard about an ultrasonic transducer caller Barnacle Zapper. I have trouble with growth on the props; paint doesnt last more than 6 months here in south Florida. Does anybody that lives in a warm water area have experience with this product? Very expensive but the testimonials on their website seem very impressive.

UK Lele Girl said:

...the testimonials on their website seem very impressive.

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Of course the testimonials on the manufacturer's main advertising venue are impressive. Do you think the they would say, "Our product is so ineffective that we challenge you to find anybody actually using it"?

Various companies have sold "Ultra Sonic" barnacle repellers since the 1970's.
None of them work. There was even one that was meant to be attached to a radio and you played the barnacles rock and roll through it. Turns out that barnacles like to dance.

Don't waste your money.

Prior to this season, I mentioned somewhere that I had had a discussion with Pettit about bottom paint always being ineffective on my bronze skeg bar. They told me that copper bottom became depleated as soon as it is applied to underwater metal unless there is a barrier coat (years of dead bottom paint can be a barrier). Not just a primer, a barrier coat.

They went on to say that copper-free bottom paint does work because it is not netralized my the base metal and of course works by a different method.

Being too cheap to purchase non-copper paint just for the skeg bar, I decided to apply epoxy as a barrier after grinding off the bottom paint and primer to bare metal. One straight coat and 2 thickened w/ silica coats.

So now nearing the end of the season here on Cape Cod, MA I am reporting back that there is not a single barnicle, no growth at all on my skeg bar with this treatment.

For comparison, I will try a pictire of the bar at November haul out last season growth was right over the depleted paint.

UK Lele Girl, I'm in Miami and I use Prop Speed. I get about a year maybe more before I have to start cleaning the prop.

X2 prop speed.

As has been discussed before I am a Prop Speed fan.
I get 2 years and I haul my boat out every 12 months.
Sometimes I use my boat a lot and sometimes she stays tied up for months and this is when the Prop Speed pays off.
Cheers
Benn

Prop Speed is the way to go, in my opinion. I've attached two photos, one a close up of the other. The photos show minimal growth after about four years and about 500+ hours of operation. The boat is kept in a brackish environment. However, nine months of the year the water is more salt that fresh.

Note: The castle nut did not receive a coating of Prop Speed.

Giggitoni said:

Prop Speed is the way to go, in my opinion. I've attached two photos, one a close up of the other. The photos show minimal growth after about four years and about 500+ hours of operation. The boat is kept in a brackish environment. However, nine months of the year the water is more salt that fresh.

Note: The castle nut did not receive a coating of Prop Speed.

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Vallejo is a low fouling environment in any case. Note that in addition to little or no fouling growth on the prop, there is almost no Prop Speed left as well.

For those that know me I have been encouraged to contribute in other areas.

I did consider starting a new thread but there is a perfectly acceptable one here so resurrecting it should allow previous contributors an update.

Treating running gear can be a real issue as in many places where fouling is severe a prop can be smothered in barnacles, if left uncoated, within 3 months. I know this as we trialed a fancy nano technology aerosol product from Germany, complete waste of time, but after 3 months we ground the prop down and tried again, complete waste of time, we ground off - in 3 months we had a prop covered in barnacles.

We have tried Prop Speed and its 'OK' provided you can keep the surface unbroken. If you hit anything in the water the surface is very soft, can break, and this appears to give a toe hold for growth. Once you have growth and try to get it off you can exacerbate the problem. Its also expensive.

We found we were only getting 12 months life (but this was not too big an issue as we only got 12 months from the anodes).

We had it applied by professionals and we applied ourselves - its not difficult, but difficult to buy as an amateur and the pack sizes are large - so good for a 'group' purchase as it cannot be stored and kept.

There is a competitor, imaginatively called Prop Gold.

Greencorp Marine

and it is, or was, available in America.

We have tried it and it as good as Prop Speed (similar technology) though Green Corp say it is stronger.

Its advantage is that it introduces a competitor to Prop Speed and, when we bought, it is cheaper.

And it must be really good as its made in Australia!

The product is relatively new so there are not many independent comments but one local boatyard seems quite happy and uses it in preference to Prop Speed (but that might be because its cheaper).


There is another product called Velox

MARLIN Home » MARLIN

Also available in America, Europe (its made in Italy) and Australia.

Its a 'conventional' hard AF specifically for running gear.

Like Prop Speed and Prop Gold the key is in the preparation and application (not difficult but you do need to follow the instructions - if you do it yourself, as we do). Very important is grinding down the running gear correctly, there are a variety of abrasive that fit an anglegrinder that are suitable (one looks like a resin and abrasive impregnated kitchen scrubber).

Velox needs a primer and then the active top coat.

An advantage to Velox is that once the surface is primed then providing the primer is sound when you come to reapply you only need to lightly abrade, clean and then apply fresh top (active) coat. Being a conventional paint you can buy a pack, primer and top coat, store and use some more next time. Its also cheaper than Prop Gold/Speed.

We have been trialing both Prop Gold and Velox and after 12 months both are as good though Velox does have a noticeable edge (but we are on a swing mooring and maybe one side gets more sunlight). However, as we do all our own servicing, the idea of simply power washing, light abrasion and re-coating has great appeal - and currently I think we will use Velox on both props in 2 weeks time (when we will do the AF).

Velox gets good reports in Europe. Again its relatively new in Oz and again, not many independent reports.

One other advantage of Velox - it comes in a few different colours but only in white in Oz. White turns out to be advantageous as you can see if there is anything foreign whereas Prop Speed/Gold tends to go dark with time.

All of these treatments work best if you can use the boat, or a least turn the prop over, regularly.

Jonathan

The Velox looks good.

Would the primers anti corrosive properties be effective on a Nibral propeller - the data sheet states effective on light alloys, iron and lead....?

Searjos,

''light alloys, iron and lead' covers a vast cross section. But I have no idea. We have used it on a bronze prop and on aluminium, without issue.

I'd ask them by email, they are very communicative. - and you can let us know

Is Velox available in HK?

Jonathan

Yes, it's available.

Will try to find the distributor and report back if I get a reply.....Chinese New Year vacation is beginning this week so everthing stands still for the next few weeks here.

Searios said:

Yes, it's available.

Will try to find the distributor and report back if I get a reply.....Chinese New Year vacation is beginning this week so everthing stands still for the next few weeks here.

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edit Contact Marlin direct. close edit

CNY, yes I know (HK slows and almost grinds to a halt, more so now in China, and the rest of the world continues oblivious), I lived there for 20 years.

Have a good evening.

J

We could not get the painter to agree on the effective value of the prop treatments, prop speed vs petit products. Our diver has to clean every month any way.

@ TheOffice: @ TheOffice: Bottom's Up or at least painted All done!

Autoteacher said:

We could not get the painter to agree on the effective value of the prop treatments, prop speed vs petit products. Our diver has to clean every month any way.

@ TheOffice: @ TheOffice: Bottom's Up or at least painted All done!

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I'm puzzled at the common practice of using a diver regularly. We moor in a high growth area, Sydney, warm ish waters and lots of sunshine. We use an ablative paint and as long as we use the boat the hull stays clean, though we do get a persistent slime round the water line (which is advantageously removed). The props stay clean for months, unless the silicone of the Prop Speed/Gold is damaged - and cleaning makes it worse (but once growth starts you do need to clean).

We think the trick is to use an ablative paint whose wear matches the lifetime of prop treatment and anodes - and getting this balance is dependent on the frequency of boat use and the fouling rate locally. The painter might know about fouling rate - but has no idea how you use the boat, compared to the one next door.

If you know you will not use the boat for 3 months and fouling is bad - then a diver would be good.

Jonathan

Djbangi said:

I'm puzzled at the common practice of using a diver regularly. We moor in a high growth area, Sydney, warm ish waters and lots of sunshine. We use an ablative paint and as long as we use the boat the hull stays clean, though we do get a persistent slime round the water line (which is advantageously removed). The props stay clean for months, unless the silicone of the Prop Speed/Gold is damaged - and cleaning makes it worse (but once growth starts you do need to clean).

We think the trick is to use an ablative paint whose wear matches the lifetime of prop treatment and anodes - and getting this balance is dependent on the frequency of boat use and the fouling rate locally. The painter might know about fouling rate - but has no idea how you use the boat, compared to the one next door.

If you know you will not use the boat for 3 months and fouling is bad - then a diver would be good.

Jonathan

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I submit that your mooring is not not actually in a region of high fouling. Either that or you have a high tolerance for a foul bottom. In-water hull cleaning is a regular, necessary part of year-round boat maintenance in places like California, Florida and one would think, much (if not all) of Austrailia. I service many hundreds of boats here in the Bay Area (both power and sail), and there is not one amonst them that does not require regular hull cleaning, regardless of use frequency or anti fouling paint type.

fstbttms,

I might agree that you can be right, one man's fouling is another's clean bottom. Our water temperature is now a cool 26 degrees (and that is as hot as it gets!) and it gets down to upper teens in the winter. I did a test on 12 different AFs, there is some thread drift here from props - sorry - and the cheaper end of the spectrum fouled early, really early - like within 3 months of application, but the expensive end of the spectrum stayed clean for 12 months (and by clean I mean - nothing), one of the top 4 performers was Micron 66. The paints were painted water line to keel in strips 12 a side (38' long), and being a catamaran with 4 sides we were able to mix the paint order - so everyone had a fair share. Some paints fouled very quickly and would need a diver, regularly (which included Micron Extra) - but it seems more sensible to pay a little bit extra and dispense with the diver (sorry if this detracts from your business model). I fully accept that Micron 66 and Sea Quantum Ultra are not cheap - but then neither is a diver (or not round here).

In addition to Micron 66 the other good paints were Jotun Sea Quantum Ultra, which we will apply in 2 weeks time, Altex No 5 (which we have on now) and ABC 3. None of this is useful to anyone outside Oz, which is why I had not mentioned it earlier - Jotun have different names for their paints round the world, so I do not know what Sea Quantum might be outside Oz, Altex No 5 is a local paint (NZ I think) and ABC 3 is American - but again is renamed (or not even available) elsewhere. Moreover - because of different environmental standards paint formulations, including Micron 66 vary country to country and our Micron 66 will/may have subtle differences to yours wherever yours may be).

The paint panel test was conducted in parallel to the prop treatment test, but we only have 2 props so it has taken longer to get to the end.

As far as I know prop formations are the same internationally, PropSpeed is the same wherever. But AF are really complex, different fouling rates in different but adjacent areas, different vessel usage practices (and my idea of low usage is another man's active use) and different formulations make comparisons and recommendations very difficult and as prone to arguments as some other sensitive topics ( so I had intended to stay well clear!). So I'd rather restrict my AF comments to Oz questions (which might merit a different thread), except to say that AF performance vary enormously.

Jonathan

Djbangi said:

I did a test on 12 different AFs, there is some thread drift here from props - sorry - and the cheaper end of the spectrum fouled early, really early - like within 3 months of application, but the expensive end of the spectrum stayed clean for 12 months (and by clean I mean - nothing), one of the top 4 performers was Micron 66.

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In my extensive experience, I have never found any anti fouling paint that will stay clean for 12 months here in the Bay Area.

This is a 3-month old Micron 66 bottom in Point Richmond, CA. This kind of fouling is typical even on brand new paint here. While this is not heavy growth, it is certainly enough to affect perfomance.

As soon as the replacement for my bent port prop shaft arrives my boat gets hauled again and Propspeed is on the list, for the first time. I`m also in Sydney, my hull a/f, Jotun Seaguardian, ablative, is still effective after 18 months, outlasting hard a/f on the running gear, so by going to Propspeed I might get 2 years total from antifouling.
As to diving on/cleaning off a/f, if ablative and the cleaning is mechanical like brush/cloth/sponge, that`s pretty much the end of the a/f. Unless like Bowline, a Sydney contractor,they use compressed air jets to blow the slime etc off.

BruceK said:

As to diving on/cleaning off a/f, if ablative and the cleaning is mechanical like brush/cloth/sponge, that`s pretty much the end of the a/f.

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Sorry, that simply isn't true.

I had wondered if you took one of these very cheap power washers and used it underwater - would it work (on props or hull). I can see it being more useful on a prop (hence the reason for raising it) as its a small area with lots of fiddly bits - a hull might simply be too large unless you dive (or use a diver). If it, the cheap power washer, corroded because you used sea water (or even if you used freshwater) or it was used in seawater - if it worked it would be cheaper than a diver (here). a cheap power washer here, Karcher the like, costs well under US$100 - I'm not sure how much diver time you would get for that?

But the hull you show Fstbttms looks as if it has not been used, much, but I would part agree with Bruce, if there is any hard or tenacious tenacious you will need a bit of vim and vigour to remove, which will be the same vim and vigour removing some of the expensive ablative AF. If you are to restrict cleaning to a gentle wipe (with no vessel movement to allow the vessel to auto' clean) - then you will need to clean very regularly and if you are cleaning that regularly I'd suggest investing in CopperCoat (or whatever the American equivalent is). The whole philosophy behind ablative (and all prop treatments) is movement, which can be a regular run, or a regular wipe or an irregular bit of vim and vigour. But wiping gently should be no better nor different to a regular run.

I must get back to discussing props!

Jonathan

Djbangi said:

I had wondered if you took one of these very cheap power washers and used it underwater - would it work (on props or hull). I can see it being more useful on a prop (hence the reason for raising it) as its a small area with lots of fiddly bits - a hull might simply be too large unless you dive (or use a diver). If it, the cheap power washer, corroded because you used sea water (or even if you used freshwater) or it was used in seawater - if it worked it would be cheaper than a diver (here).

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A pressure washer should never be used underwater on any surface that you'd like the paint to remain upon. The reason being that to be effective underwater you need a unit that delivers at least 4 gallons per minute at relatively high pressure (I use a 4200 psi unit.) Because the washer has to overcome the ambient water pressure to work, the spray tip must be placed very close to the surface being cleaned. At the distances and pressures we're talking about, it is pretty much impossible to not blast anti fouling paint off whatever surface the gun is aimed at. I use mine on unpainted running gear only.

Djbangi said:

But the hull you show Fstbttms looks as if it has not been used, much, but I would part agree with Bruce, if there is any hard growth you will need a bit of vim and vigour to remove, which will be the same vim and vigour removing some of the expensive ablative AF. If you are to restrict cleaning to a gentle wipe (with no vessel movement to allow the vessel to auto' clean) - then you will need to clean very regularly and if you are cleaning that regularly I'd suggest investing in CopperCoat (or whatever the American equivalent is). The whole philosophy behind ablative (and all prop treatments) is movement, which can be a regular run, or a regular wipe or an irregular bit of vim and vigour. But wiping gently should be no better nor different to a regular run.

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The boat in question is a regular racer. I cannot vouch for how often the boat had been used between splashing with new Micron 66 and the first cleaning 3 months later, but it certainly had been used. The fact of the matter is that in California, there is no anti fouling product available that will keep a bottom even reasonably clean without regular dive service. If you do not keep a boat here and advise otherwise, you do so out of ignorance.

As far as Coppercoat, goes, I wouldn't wish it on my worst enemy. For example:

Micron 66 is great if you keep the boat in salt water. Even brackish water can cause the paint to fail.

fstbttms said:

I submit that your mooring is not not actually in a region of high fouling. Either that or you have a high tolerance for a foul bottom. In-water hull cleaning is a regular, necessary part of year-round boat maintenance in places like California, Florida and one would think, much (if not all) of Austrailia. I service many hundreds of boats here in the Bay Area (both power and sail), and there is not one amonst them that does not require regular hull cleaning, regardless of use frequency or anti fouling paint type.

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I guess it depends on your definition of "regular", how often you use your boat and I can only speak to Florida for the most part but with the correct bottom and running gear paint/treatment you should not be getting any significant growth on your hull that needs regular tending to. Certainly not monthly. In fact to much regular scrubbing can shorten the life of your paint.

Capt.Bill11 said:

I guess it depends on your definition of "regular", how often you use your boat and I can only speak to Florida for the most part but with the correct bottom and running gear paint/treatment you should not be getting any significant growth on your hull that needs regular tending to. Certainly not monthly. In fact to much regular scrubbing can shorten the life of your paint.

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That's funny. I know any number of dive services doing land office business in Florida. And I have heard anecdotally that monthly cleanings are de rigeur there. Maybe it depends on specific location. In California, anywhere from 6 to 15 cleanings a year are typical with quality anti fouling paints performing well for 3+ years.

fstbttms said:

That's funny. I know any number of dive services doing land office business in Florida. And I have heard anecdotally that monthly cleanings are de rigeur there. Maybe it depends on specific location. In California, anywhere from 6 to 15 cleanings a year are typical with quality anti fouling paints performing well for 3+ years.

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Yes there are plenty of hull cleaning ops here. And yes they do seem to be able to convince many people that monthly bottom cleanings are necessary.

Almost makes you wonder why anybody bothers with putting bottom paint on at all. Since it's apparently so ineffective here.