Where will the trawler market go?

ksanders said:

I really hope someone young reads this and thinks about it. I think the average TF member is frankly too old to do anything about it. By the time you are in your 50's you're there or you are not.

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Your points are well made and excellent advice to those younger. But I wouldn't totally ignore the changes possible in one's 50's. Go into retirement mode of thinking early, imagining living only off your retirement income. Downsize to the house, condo, or apartment that would require and save the difference. Many have enough equity in a home to buy a condo and have no mortgage and no house payments. You had 3000 square feet for you, spouse and two kids. Now 800 will suffice with kids gone. The difference in interest and upkeep could be over $100,000 in 15 years. Forego trading cars. A couple with two cars and 50 years old might have a habit of trading every 4 years. That means 6 cars before 65. Trade every 8 years and that is 2 cars. Just saved $80,000 or more. Rethink major expenditures. Eat at home rather than out five nights a week. Eating habits and cutting down on restaurants can easily save a couple $50 per week. That's $2500 per year, $37,500 in 15 years. Even if you just have 5 or 8 years of the more frugal lifestyle it can mean a lot at retirement.

You forgot to mention cut out booze. That will save a bundle!

BandB said:

Your points are well made and excellent advice to those younger. But I wouldn't totally ignore the changes possible in one's 50's. Go into retirement mode of thinking early, imagining living only off your retirement income. Downsize to the house, condo, or apartment that would require and save the difference. Many have enough equity in a home to buy a condo and have no mortgage and no house payments. You had 3000 square feet for you, spouse and two kids. Now 800 will suffice with kids gone. The difference in interest and upkeep could be over $100,000 in 15 years. Forego trading cars. A couple with two cars and 50 years old might have a habit of trading every 4 years. That means 6 cars before 65. Trade every 8 years and that is 2 cars. Just saved $80,000 or more. Rethink major expenditures. Eat at home rather than out five nights a week. Eating habits and cutting down on restaurants can easily save a couple $50 per week. That's $2500 per year, $37,500 in 15 years. Even if you just have 5 or 8 years of the more frugal lifestyle it can mean a lot at retirement.

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Summary: you might as well be dead!

So here we all are, sitting on our yachts (yes, even that CHB or old Trojan is a yacht to most) crying in our beer. Sun is out, sails are up, motors are humming - life is good.

BandB said:

Your points are well made and excellent advice to those younger. But I wouldn't totally ignore the changes possible in one's 50's. Go into retirement mode of thinking early, imagining living only off your retirement income. Downsize to the house, condo, or apartment that would require and save the difference. Many have enough equity in a home to buy a condo and have no mortgage and no house payments. You had 3000 square feet for you, spouse and two kids. Now 800 will suffice with kids gone. The difference in interest and upkeep could be over $100,000 in 15 years. Forego trading cars. A couple with two cars and 50 years old might have a habit of trading every 4 years. That means 6 cars before 65. Trade every 8 years and that is 2 cars. Just saved $80,000 or more. Rethink major expenditures. Eat at home rather than out five nights a week. Eating habits and cutting down on restaurants can easily save a couple $50 per week. That's $2500 per year, $37,500 in 15 years. Even if you just have 5 or 8 years of the more frugal lifestyle it can mean a lot at retirement.

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You are 100% correct.

For every $1,000 in monthly expenditures you can eliminate, thats approx a quarter million in money you do not need to retire.

On a more near term level my son is a car trader. He and his wife buy new expensive cars every other year or so. He was quite surprised when I showed him an example of the nice yacht he could buy with those car payments.

I will fall into the category of people who "sell everything to live aboard." Because that's the only way I can do it.

I'm putting an offer on a house that will fit me and my family for many years to come and the plan is to stay there. For obvious reasons we're now holding off on getting a boat, but this is wants vs needs situation. In a couple of years I plan on having my on the water condo though!

sunchaser said:

So here we all are, sitting on our yachts (yes, even that CHB or old Trojan is a yacht to most) crying in our beer. Sun is out, sails are up, motors are humming - life is good.

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Amen!

Note to self.. in the PNW we drink good beer.. don't salt it too much with the tears.
HOLLYWOOD

Another option instead of retiring early is to take a job that may pay crap...but feels like retirement.

Be a charter captain...sailing, boating fishing, etc.... Get a job that has flexibility and allows you to do pretty much what you want yet pays enough to downsize to a comfy but not luxurious lifestyle.

Here's a post from someone here awhile back that I thought made limited sense and is appropriate....

...
The Mexican fisherman asked, "But señor, how long will this all take?" To which the businessman replied, "15-20 years." "But what then, señor?" The businessman laughed and said, "That's the best part! When the time is right you would announce an IPO and sell your company stock to the public and become very rich. You would make millions." "Millions, señor? Then what?" The businessman said, "Then you would retire. Move to a small coastal fishing village where you would sleep late, fish a little, play with your kids, take a siesta with your wife, stroll to the village in the evenings where you could sip wine and play your guitar with your amigos."

The fisherman, still smiling, looked up and said, "Isn't that what I'm doing right now?"

-Author Unknown

Rustybarge said:

Summary: you might as well be dead!

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I had a friend that used to say that when he was young. His saying was...

"Id rather die poor than live like I was poor my entire adult life"

Well fast forward... He isn't so young any more. He is at retirement age. He has no home equity, little savings, and two car payments. In short he's on the work till you die program.

Choices we make in our youth will affect us decades later. He is proof of that.

Him and I worked together side by side. Did the same job, got the same pay. I will not get into our exact differences in financials, but I'll tell you this... He's not on Trawler forum. He is not planning on sailing off into the sunset. He is not in a position to even dream the same dreams as I do. Remember, same job, same pay.

There's a similar thread over on yachtforums.com about the reduced number of large yachts at FLIBS where a professional captain added:


I think the key takeaway is that much of the personal wealth has left the US relative to other places - and the true "yachts" have followed, leaving us with a pretty large stock of boats that aren't desirable elsewhere or aren't worth relocating.

We've seen these movements before - East Coast boats moving to the West Coast (easily spotted because they don't have swim steps!), exotic cars going to Japan (this was more than a decade ago), Chinese / HK money flowing into Vancouver Canada highrise condos that are mostly vacant, et cetera.

And when the boats that use and pay for the expensive services leave, then it's harder for the infrastructure to get by on the "budget" folks who are left.

BandB said:

...I wouldn't totally ignore the changes possible in one's 50's. Go into retirement mode of thinking early, imagining living only off your retirement income...

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Agreed! Approaching retirement myself, I've been looking at the advice offered by so-called "experts. Also at those well-known "rule of thumb" numbers you supposedly need to maintain your lifestyle in retirement.

I call BS. Here are some of the reasons why:

1) These "experts" are all in businesses designed to take some of your nest egg, in the form of commissions, fees or insurance payments. Of COURSE they want you to save too much!

2) You don't need to fund an active lifestyle into your 90's. By that time, your needs will be less. You just won't get out as much. And that's if you're lucky. You might also develop a major health issue and have to go into a nursing home, at which point all that savings will be gone almost overnight anyway.

3) You really CAN live cheaper in retirement. If you're smart, you've paid off the mortgage, or at least have some equity built up. You can downsize to a smaller home. You may not need two cars. You won't be commuting to work every day, or incurring all those other little work-related expenses. You'll have more time, so maybe you won't have to pay someone else for things you can DIY. You can cook more and eat out less.

4) As your income goes down, so do your income taxes. For the average working schmuck, who doesn't have access to a lot of loopholes, this can be a big savings all by itself.

5) Two words: Senior discount.

I've run the numbers all different ways, and I'm convinced I can survive on 40% of my current salary. I plan to do this for a year, while still working, to prove it's possible. If so, I'll be moving aboard, if not full-time, then at least for the winters.

I am deeply skeptical of "wise" and conservative financial advice too. I always did the responsible thing, they told me to leave it in index funds long term, ride it out, it'll come back up. Well it is back up now, way up, but with the management fees and charges and inflation, over a 15 year period I'm about even. No growth, just stayed even. Mom put her money in passbook savings accounts and I gave her grief about it no end for years. She did a lot better than I did.

psneeld said:

Another option instead of retiring early is to take a job that may pay crap...but feels like retirement.

Be a charter captain...sailing, boating fishing, etc.... Get a job that has flexibility and allows you to do pretty much what you want yet pays enough to downsize to a comfy but not luxurious lifestyle.

Here's a post from someone here awhile back that I thought made limited sense and is appropriate....

...
The Mexican fisherman asked, "But señor, how long will this all take?" To which the businessman replied, "15-20 years." "But what then, señor?" The businessman laughed and said, "That's the best part! When the time is right you would announce an IPO and sell your company stock to the public and become very rich. You would make millions." "Millions, señor? Then what?" The businessman said, "Then you would retire. Move to a small coastal fishing village where you would sleep late, fish a little, play with your kids, take a siesta with your wife, stroll to the village in the evenings where you could sip wine and play your guitar with your amigos."

The fisherman, still smiling, looked up and said, "Isn't that what I'm doing right now?"

-Author Unknown

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Your quote rings much more true than people realize.

My wife and I talk about this quite often.

Good post! Thanks!

ksanders said:

Your quote rings much more true than people realize.

My wife and I talk about this quite often.

Good post! Thanks!

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Thanks...most of the people I know and hang with all are worth way more than 7 figures even though I have been there and back down 2X.

On a serviceman's salary...amassing 7 figures 2x in a lifetime was a wild ride but I enjoyed all but the gut knifing by a few...who were supposedly close to me.

The best decision I made was to come home to my 2 boys who have turned out great and take on the simple life.

I had a pretty good lead with Cessna Aircraft and a few others when I was leaving Washington, DC and all the defense contractor offers...but I saw 2 things happening if I stayed. A heart attack from the pressure I would have put on myself or a long prison term for what I would have done to a beltway insider sooner or later.

Well back to my decision....towing all these 7 figure types all summer long and having them say..."man...you got the perfect job/life...living the dream"...pretty much sounds to me like the story of the poor fisherman.

I have been lucky to have had the background I had and to move along into what I always loved. I'm in the throes of leaving the assistance towing and moving on to even more part time work. Recently someone paid me what I was worth to them...and it dwarfed the regular paycheck working for someone else....nice to be appreciated.

So bottom line is as many say...follow your dreams and what you love...and the rewards will come. Yes it's still work for the ups as well as downs...but the ride is a lot more fun.

Money comes to those who live...not those that live for it...money without fun is like money in prison...it just keeps you from getting butt-fu**ed.

An awesome discussion with many good points.

I think it's much simpler. The internet has fundamentally changed the price of things, including boats.

Many of the boats for sale are never going to sell at the price the owners are asking. We have a glut of overpriced boats. There is a price where every boat will sell - meaning there are buyers out there.

Don't believe me? Start watching EBay... Instead of Yachtworld.

There are plenty of us boomers who own our houses, have no debt, and plenty of savings. We just don't make the headlines. The only thing stopping us from trading up is a worry that the Great Recession is not yet over so the bottom of the market has not been reached.

Good point SeaMoose. The last recession - or whatever it was, and the stock market slide made me permanently conservative. As a result, even though we could swing it fairly easily now, and even though I still have around 10 years of earning time ahead at 52, I am just not going to buy a six figure boat. I would expect lots of the Boomers feel the same way. That's going to chill the market I expect.

Buying a boat is a commitment...what do you want out of it?

Retirement home?
Weekend/vacation home?
Occasional stop by because of a lot of other pulls?

If it could be a liveaboard for the next 20-30 years... the savings over conventional lifestyle could be huge....

all just depends on where the path leads....

psneeld said:

Buying a boat is a commitment...what do you want out of it?

Retirement home?
Weekend/vacation home?
Occasional stop by because of a lot of other pulls?

If it could be a liveaboard for the next 20-30 years... the savings over conventional lifestyle could be huge....

all just depends on where the path leads....

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Exactly!

All of our neighbors are buying or have purchased "winter homes" in warmer climates. Alaska is not a pleasant place in the winter, BTW

Our boat is our winter home. Or it will be some day, as life events occur eliminating our ties to Alaska in the winter time.

If it were just a recreational boat, I would have kept our 28' Bayliner. I have no need for a recreational boat this size or expense. The 28' Bayliner was much funner to fish from!

ksanders said:

Thats the point entirely. If you bought a home for $15K way back when, even if you had a mortgage it would seem like a really small mortgage in todays dollars. That would free up your monthly income to buy a large boat.

If on the other hand you kept refinancing your home, pulling out the equity, or if you kept trading up homes, you'd be making a mortgage payment today on a $220K home. That would not leave enough left over at the end of the month to pay a large boat payment.

It gets even worse when you consider retirement. If you'd just kept your home, it would be paid off and you could live rent free during your retirement years. Instead you're stuck with a mortgage payment during your retirement.

I really hope someone young reads this and thinks about it. I think the average TF member is frankly too old to do anything about it. By the time you are in your 50's you're there or you are not.

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Great advice, Kevin. Buy early and don't continually trade up. Invest the savings then buy a boat with cash, if possible.

I pulled out of the market before the crash in 2007 and bought my boat. I had to finance some of it for a couple of years, but had it paid off before retirement at 55. In the end, the investments would have lost and recovered if I let them ride, but now I have the boat and this lifestyle I cherish so much. Worked well for us.

When we bought our boat, we limited our buy-in to an amount that if it sunk tomorrow without insurance (which we have), we would not be financially strapped. The bulk of the depreciation of our 1977 boat was eaten by her POs. While she has depreciated some since buying her in 2007, it has been relatively minor. We're glad we stayed within our budget since our 20's to make it all happen in our 50's.

I'm confident there are many 20- and 30-somethings who share our dreams and are saving now to make sure it happens in their later years. Despite the current economic woes of our nation, the American Dream is still alive...be it on land or water. I see it in the faces of my daughters, their friends and the children of my friends. We just don't see them on the news so they're not always visible through the 24-hour news cycle to the masses, but they're out there in numbers.