I'm getting my mojo back

Wxx3 said:

Thanks all,

I'm not disagreeing with you, but I think you are also not listening very well.

I will add water sensors to the Racors. They have the hole for them and I would have caught it sooner.

It was salt water. I tasted it.

Probably won't do anything else.

Again, EVERYTHING on the boat could be better, newer, have more redundancy. In fact, why not just hire a crew to do it all.
Wait, why not just go on someone else's boat?

Dauntless has gone over 11,000 miles, 2000 engine hours and 4,000 gallons of fuel, without the engine ever stopping without human intervention.
Think what that means.

For better or for worse, this is the system I like and can afford.

Nuff said

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What ever about the integrity of the fuel system, if the engine does stop and you are unable to restart after a few goes, what are you going to do with a flat battery?

You need one these, definitely: Spring starters Simms, Lucas, CAV mechanical starter motors from Kineteco Home Page.

Wxx3 said:

Again, EVERYTHING on the boat could be better, newer, have more redundancy. In fact, why not just hire a crew to do it all.
Wait, why not just go on someone else's boat?

....

For better or for worse, this is the system I like and can afford.

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Whenever I see hardware redundancy mentioned, 5 things pop into my mind:
1. Space
2. Weight
3. Power
4. $$$ (and even mucho $$$)
5. Complexity

There is just so much you can safely pack into a 42' boot even if you have an unlimited budget. Redundancy is over rated.

I don't think redundancy can ever be overrated...but I agree it isn't always practical.

Like many things... it should be a goal only till it is more burden than benefit.

Wow all the armchair experts are out in force on this one!

HE MADE THE CROSSING WITH HIS SYSTEM AS INSTALLED!

Rustybarge said:

What ever about the integrity of the fuel system, if the engine does stop and you are unable to restart after a few goes, what are you going to do with a flat battery?

You need one these, definitely: Spring starters Simms, Lucas, CAV mechanical starter motors from Kineteco Home Page.

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he has a genset.. why does he need to worry about the starting bank going flat?
HOLLYWOOD

Richard, to think they were selling that crap. What was the cost per gallon in Horta for this stuff. Glad it all worked out and to me there was nothing wrong with your system. It did what it should. I always am the culprit creating an issue that really isn't one without my help.
I can't imagine doing this in those conditions and not making an oh crap.

It's possible to get crap fuel anywhere...

I'm going to add to my list of pre-departure for offshore .....fuel polishing...either internally or by a company doing the service.

Well at least I'll think about it a lot more and weight the plusses/minuses.

hollywood8118 said:

he has a genset.. why does he need to worry about the starting bank going flat?
HOLLYWOOD

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He doesn't really. I'd have been more worried about water F-ing up the injection pump and/or injectors.

Hopefully he will find the source of the salt water intrusion and seal it off for future rouge water passages. It could be as simple as replacing the O-ring on the fuel fill cap.

Capt Bill11,
hmm, good point. I was thinking the water was in the fuel when he bought it but given the conditions you have a really good point.

hollywood8118 said:

he has a genset.. why does he need to worry about the starting bank going flat?
HOLLYWOOD

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Genset will stop too with dirty fuel.

It could have been salt water even from the place it was bought....maybe more of a long shot...but not out of the question...

psneeld said:

It could have been salt water even from the place it was bought....maybe more of a long shot...but not out of the question...

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Yes, of course. But since it was salt water and he was out in rough water so long to me it seems the odds favor intrusion. But either way, based on the amount of water in his engine filters, I'd say he was very close to engine shut down and potential catastrophic injection pump/injector damage.

When running a single engine vessel, whether heading across the bay or an ocean, doing everything you can within reason to keep the engine getting clean and water free fuel should be priority number one. Don't you agree?

Capt.Bill11 said:

Yes, of course. But since it was salt water and he was out in rough water so long to me it seems the odds favor intrusion. But either way, based on the amount of water in his engine filters, I'd say he was very close to engine shut down and potential catastrophic injection pump/injector damage.

When running a single engine vessel, whether heading across the bay or an ocean, doing everything you can within reason to keep the engine getting clean and water free fuel should be priority number one. Don't you agree?

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+1

...and keep the fuel system simple.

People cross oceans in ill prepared boats a lot. I'm sure yours is better than most. Simple fuel systems are fine if you use due diligence. Two clean tanks with drain sumps is a great start. Fuel fills that are not where sea water or rain/dew can get in them. Same with vents. One tank that is cleaned/inspected regularly is better than several that are not. However, water in the engine mounted, last ditch effort filter is unacceptable. Water will destroy an injector pump post haste. It will blow the tip off of injectors. It is the achilles heel of diesel engines.

Capt.Bill11 said:

Yes, of course. But since it was salt water and he was out in rough water so long to me it seems the odds favor intrusion. But either way, based on the amount of water in his engine filters, I'd say he was very close to engine shut down and potential catastrophic injection pump/injector damage.

When running a single engine vessel, whether heading across the bay or an ocean, doing everything you can within reason to keep the engine getting clean and water free fuel should be priority number one. Don't you agree?

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Absolutely...caution in both directions is advisable.

Rustybarge said:

Genset will stop too with dirty fuel.

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Ok .. I will bite on this one...

What would the spring starter do if the water in the fuel had not already been dealt with?

Your point was a spring starter would get her going if you had flat batteries.

My point is if you have a genset, you should not have the need. My genset draws through a separate Racor. One would be prudent if one checked all the filters before trying to do a restart.

HOLLYWOOD

hollywood8118 said:

Ok .. I will bite on this one...

What would the spring starter do if the water in the fuel had not already been dealt with?

Your point was a spring starter would get her going if you had flat batteries.

My point is if you have a genset, you should not have the need. My genset draws through a separate Racor. One would be prudent if one checked all the filters before trying to do a restart.

HOLLYWOOD

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how many backup systems can you have?

It's a bit like having 'a backup safety system' to 'the safety system':remember Chernobyl meltdown, iirc it was the testing the backup system that caused the runaway nuclear reactor.

Bob Cofer said:

Wow all the armchair experts are out in force on this one!

HE MADE THE CROSSING WITH HIS SYSTEM AS INSTALLED!

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Ain't that the truth! Some just need to be heard that their way is better, even if they've never done it.

Kudos to Dauntless and crew who 'done it'!

FlyWright said:

Ain't that the truth! Some just need to be heard that their way is better, even if they've never done it.

Kudos to Dauntless and crew who 'done it'!

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Just because some one has done it with a poorly designed system, and I'm not saying the fuel system on Dauntless is poorly designed, does not negate the fact that there may be much better systems and designs out there.

People get away with doing all kinds of things in all kind of ways with totally inadequate systems and preparations. That does not make it the smartest or the safest way to go about it.

Nor should the fact that some one has "gotten away with it" disallow any subsequent discussion of better and safer ways to achieve the same goal.

A little critical analysis and brain storming can hopefully only help those who perhaps hope to follow the same path some day.

Capt.Bill11 said:

Just because some one has done it with a poorly designed system, and I'm not saying the fuel system on Dauntless is poorly designed, does not negate the fact that there may be much better systems and designs out there.

People get away with doing all kinds of things in all kind of ways with totally inadequate systems and preparations. That does not make it the smartest or the safest way to go about it.

Nor should the fact that some one has "gotten away with it" disallow any subsequent discussion of better and safer ways to achieve the same goal.

A little critical analysis and brain storming can hopefully only help those who perhaps hope to follow the same path some day.

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I've got a friend who was an engineer on coasters and small ships, and he told me the golden rule that can never be broken is 'never never stop your engine'.

If it's not running right just keep on going till you get to the nearest port where you can fix it, chances if it's not running well it will be impossible to restart.

So designing a self contained system for your engine and it's fuel that cannot be contaminated is pretty damn important!

Rustybarge said:

I've got a friend who was an engineer on coasters and small ships, and he told me the golden rule that can never be broken is 'never never stop your engine'.

If it's not running right just keep on going till you get to the nearest port where you can fix it, chances if it's not running well it will be impossible to restart.

So designing a self contained system for your engine and it's fuel that cannot be contaminated is pretty damn important!

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Exactly.

I didn't plan on stopping the engine. But once it stopped, I got it going again.

Now, psneeld has said about making the effort to polish fuel before departure and yes, I agree with that.
My real **** up was not getting the fuel days earlier. That's why I'd do differently.

I got more batteries than flashlights on this boat. And if experience counts for anything, the one time I spent days trying to get the engine started, my too little group 27 battery never showed any signs of tiring.

So I never had to even turn the battery switch to the house batteries.
Not did I even have to get out the jumper cables and use the gen battery, after my thousand amps were all gone.

And yes, I figure, with all that, I would had had to change the secondary filters had I needed another 24 to 48 hrs of of them, oh, but I didn't.

I will give you the benefit of the doubt in that, all you have is my explanation and as detailed as they seem, I simply can't mention EVERYTHING.

So for example, the Horta fuel was undyed, so I could tell which fuel was crappy.

I also noticed that it became cloudy, which to my limited knowledge had to do with an emulsifer they must have put in the fuel.
Probably because they did have a water problem to begin with.
But I'm sure most of the water did enter thru the fill cap. I looked at the o ring and it didn't look to bad. But I'm sure water got thru.

But I'm actually thinking now that that much water may have gotten in from the vent tube.

Wxx3 said:

But I'm actually thinking now that that much water may have gotten in from the vent tube.

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I know it can be hard to tell but can you see if your vent line has a loop in it that rises above the the over board outlet? If not I'd consider adding one.

So far the guy who took his boat across the pond and has shown us his voyage, warts and all, has a lot of credibility in my eyes. Perhaps a few of you can show us photographs of what a perfectly designed fuel management system looks like aboard your current personal boat.

Richard I look forward to following your journey.

Umm, I apologize for not being more articulate.

I simply think many of you are not seeing the forest for the trees!

As I've said, they're a few things I will do differently in the future.

But getting across an ocean, is not about one perfect thing, whether it be fuel, water, electricity, etc.

It's about having systems in place so that when I forget to do something or something breaks, the boat goes on.

That's what I mean when I say you make your own luck.

Even though I had a number of issues, some of them exacerbated by me, like not polishing fuel before I left Horta, the boat and I overcame them.

I had a system in place that works.

I will add that in being forced to explain myself, it does make me reflective and today again, while I see some things I will modify, I'm quite pleased with myself and my systems.

Thank you all for making me see that.

Richard,
You got there, the fact that there could have been some improvements in your system or pre trip preparation doesn't really matter.
OK look at these things and may be act on them in the future otherwise bask in the achievement and a well done from me.

check the places that failure could have happened and remedy that other than that you are the other side of the big ditch ready to enjoy yourself.
Cheers
Benn

Wxx3 said:

I will add that in being forced to explain myself, it does make me reflective and today again, while I see some things I will modify, I'm quite pleased with myself and my systems.

Thank you all for making me see that.

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And so you should be. That was a fantastic voyage. And to discuss it all openly for our benefit is mighty big hearted of you. Thanks a bunch Richard, and I wish you continued success on the rest of your journey.

Most voyagers would not have had the opportunity to do a shake down cruise all the way up the East coast from Miami, before heading out. You did and would have made any system additions or adjustments YOU felt necessary during that time. By the time you started the crossing, YOU were confident in your preparations. You were successful and I applaud you. There will always be some things, in hindsight you may have done a little better as you are now a better, more experienced sailor.

Enjoy your accomplishment, you deserve it.

Since Richard started posting his adventures on Dauntless, he has been very frank in telling the good and the bad. His perseverance and get it done attitude is to be admired. He and Julie were willing to take the risk to pursue a dream. I doubt that they were a real danger to anyone else at sea.

It was an absolutely awesome accomplishment. For that I commend them. All of us would have made some mistakes and learned from them. The point is that you can stay on the beach wondering if you are ready, or you can get preparations to an acceptable level. He did that, and did what few people do-------he left.

How many drips in a gallon?

I gut new o rings today and if you guys agree, I think I found the guilty party.
I'm figuring that this ring was probably letting a drip every two to three seconds?

That would be 25,000 to 50,000 drips a day.

Even half of that, a drip every 6 seconds would be 12,000.

Considering that deck wasn't just wet, but had water from a few inches to a couple feet 90% off the time, every 6 sec seems reasonable.
The last 5 days ,a gallon a day pretty much explains all the water.

Thoughts??