Is the ocean really dead?

sunchaser said:

No doubt the two paragraph summary has lots of field data, but I'm puzzled. Some say the Arctic sea ice is melting at an alarming rate and has been for decades. This being the case, how did the plastic from the tsunami find its way into the sea ice samples tested? Or even earlier plastic for that matter?

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My slope browed knuckle dragging understanding of the issue is that this would be very small bits of plastic that have been accumulating for a long time, not just tsunami debris.

The artctic sea ice pulsates north and south during the year, but what I think worries scientists is the average thickness of the ice is rapidly reducing. Seem to remember the US Navy releasing data from all the times their nuke subs punched through the ice over the decades, and there has been a steady thinning over time.

As for the plastic, because it floats, it gets incorporated into the bottom layer of the ice as it freezes, then releases massive pulses when it melts out during summer.

texasnielsen said:

Wondered myself how come it's not visible from a Sat photo available to us commoners....

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"For many people, the idea of a “garbage patch” conjures up images of an island of trash floating on the ocean. In reality, these patches are usually made up of tiny bits of plastic, called microplastics. Microplastics that make up the majority of garbage patches can’t always be seen by the naked eye. Satellite imagery of oceans doesn’t show a giant patch of garbage."

Ghostrider42 said:

Our friends who were 100km away from Fuku, were required, not requested to move. They did so and on their last blood tests - apparently didn't move fast enough. 250rads made them ill. Now mercury and pcbs are present in their blood. We will bring them home when they are "allowed" to leave.

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Please elaborate on how they received 250rads at that distance and how they have the non-radioactive contaminates of mercury and pcb in there blood.

I say we all pitch in, charter a large boat to go out find these patches of trash, and research them for ourselves.

ben2go said:

I say we all pitch in, charter a large boat to go out find these patches of trash, and research them for ourselves.

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I second that, hell sometimes I would like to donate my beloved cajun rose to the garbage patch or floating island of trash

Or next few decades. When things go over the tipping point it's every fast. Not a gradual decline.

The gov thinks an EMP attack will cost 2/3 of the US population within a year.

Prep the boat ,have paper charts for South America , dont get behind a lock or opening bridge , and enough food for 3-4 months and a water supply, rain catchment or water maker.

You can lighten the boat by tossing anything electric with a transistor in it, GPS , autopilot, LED lights ,,,,


What ME worry?

Last month I was out on the Oregon coast visiting a close friend who is a commercial fisherman. He hook and line fishes Albacore Tuna and unloads his catch of 12,000 lbs at one of the processors/canneries that line the northern pacific coast. He has been plugging his boat full for most of the season. I just talked to him yesterday (he just pulled in with 11,000 lbs in 2 days) and was waiting to get unloaded so he could go out again, one last time. I wonder what levels of "stuff" are in those fish, I saw no one monitoring the catch before it when inside to be processed.

roguewave said:

I just talked to him yesterday (he just pulled in with 11,000 lbs in 2 days) and was waiting to get unloaded so he could go out again, one last time. I wonder what levels of "stuff" are in those fish, I saw no one monitoring the catch before it when inside to be processed.

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How did the tuna get off the Oregon coast, is that not part of the dead Pacific?

sunchaser said:

How did the tuna get off the Oregon coast, is that not part of the dead Pacific?

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You're being too literal. The author of the piece, having sailed the waters years earlier experienced a vibrant ocean full of life. Fish were easily caught and birds were seen consistently. Recently, he couldn't catch fish easily and there were no birds.

Now imagine being on the open ocean for weeks, where on earlier voyages its emptyness made you hyper aware of any other life forms you encountered, then, you cross again and see nothing. The silence would be haunting.

What was the average size of tuna the fisherman brought in, as compared to catches 50 years ago?

sunchaser said:

How did the tuna get off the Oregon coast, is that not part of the dead Pacific?

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undoubtedly the "tuna" were planted by the govt. to make us think the pacific is still alive. The may actually be genetically altered Tilapia from a lab hidden at the Hanford site .. flown in and planted at night by the black helicopters..

Oh boy we are in for it now..

if I never post on TF again.. you will know that the men in black suits that drive the blacked out Suburbans came and got me for figuring out their evil plan..

HOLLYWOOD

It could be I am just blind.. but in all my ocean passages the only time I see birds, except for the rare Albatross is near land. If one expects to see a bunch of sea gulls 1500 miles off shore it doesn't happen.

You might think that by my posts I am anti-environment.. not so. I do not believe that we should use the Oceans for a dump.. mainly plastics are a real no-no in my book.

I just take pause at the groups that hyper sensationalize govt conspiracies, environmental doom, zombies etc. to further their own agendas. The companies that sell and schlep the survival bunkers on the tv shows must be laughing their way to the bank

HOLLYWOOD

The author of the piece, having sailed the waters years earlier experienced a vibrant ocean full of life. Fish were easily caught and birds were seen consistently.

This describes sea life ON the continental shelf.

Once you go off the shelf its only really big stuff that can transit thousands of miles with out food.

Real blue water is a desert.

People perceive the world differently. The author of the original article was sensitive to a change in the ocean environment, where another person wouldn't have noticed a thing. Just like one person might cross the prairies enjoying the big open skies, where another would feel pain at its barbwire barriers and the loss of millions of Bison.

MurrayM said:

People perceive the world differently. The author of the original article was sensitive to a change in the ocean environment, where another person wouldn't have noticed a thing. Just like one person might cross the prairies enjoying the big open skies, where another would feel pain at its barbwire barriers and the loss of millions of Bison.

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Murray, quite simply the answer is tubal ligatin and castration. Who volunteers has always been the conundrum. Until that question is answered smaller fish, fouled beaches, too little fresh water and dirty air are a reality.

But the notion that PCBs are the root of all radiation evil and the Pacific is dead are a bit off target and will be dissed, by some.

I am as skeptical about an artist's view of science as I am a scientist's view of art.

Northern Spy said:

I am as skeptical about an artist's view of science as I am a scientist's view of art.

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Well slap my ass and call me Judy, that was a zinger!!

sunchaser said:

Murray, quite simply the answer is tubal ligatin and castration. Who volunteers has always been the conundrum. Until that question is answered smaller fish, fouled beaches, too little fresh water and dirty air are a reality.

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You're right.

How about a guaranteed financial boost to those who volunteer? Maybe base it on a global agreement to pay them a percentage of whatever their countries average "liveable" income is.

hollywood8118 said:

It could be I am just blind.. but in all my ocean passages the only time I see birds, except for the rare Albatross is near land. If one expects to see a bunch of sea gulls 1500 miles off shore it doesn't happen.

You might think that by my posts I am anti-environment.. not so. I do not believe that we should use the Oceans for a dump.. mainly plastics are a real no-no in my book.

I just take pause at the groups that hyper sensationalize govt conspiracies, environmental doom, zombies etc. to further their own agendas. The companies that sell and schlep the survival bunkers on the tv shows must be laughing their way to the bank

HOLLYWOOD

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Very well said.

The other travesty here is Bycatch, that no one talks about.
When I lived in Alaska, everyone wanted to blame the Alaska natives and their fish wheels for the reason there are less and less fish.

IN the Pac NW, it was the dams.

So presumably, if we got rid of the Natives and the Dams, (Dam Natives?)
all the fish will reappear.

THat was over 20 years ago and not much has changed.

Bycatch, that's the real crime that no one talks about.

MurrayM said:

Well slap my ass and call me Judy, that was a zinger!!

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Yeah.... well... Sorry. It wasn't targeted at you. I was going to delete it and then got interrupted.

Perhaps I should say that the original article was a bit euphemistic, and didn't merit the press it did.

I do realize that you are indeed an artist and, ahem, we may be at different ends of the political spectrum. However, I've read some of your commentary about a certain controversial BC subject and found it fairly logical and well reasoned.

I am a strong MBTI ENTP or Keirsey Inventor personality type, and such I am still learning to temper my statements to those who utilize emotion and subjectivity for primary decision making.

I would gladly sit down and share a beer with you anytime. I'm sure we could find lots of common ground and have a swell time.

#$%&! phone

That was supposed to be a PM.

Northern Spy said:

#$%&! phone

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When heading south with Badger next year we'll look you up and definitely get together for a chat. It was during the hearings phase of that "certain controversial BC subject" that I got to meet with many different people on the other side of the issue, and found that most were willing to have reasonable conversations and to learn from each other. I suspect we'll get along just fine, even if we're in completely different camps on the issue.

The truth is usually near the middle.

I should take that personality type survey, as I'm an odd duck. My dad was a chemical engineer, so I carry some of him even though being an artist. (Make all my developers and fixers from scratch, and use technically demanding pin registered sharp and unsharp masking techniques with lith films while printing).

Let me know if you'd like to see some evidence (geologic and weather related hazards) submitted to the Panel, and I'll send you a link...via PM

Northern Spy said:

I am as skeptical about an artist's view of science as I am a scientist's view of art.

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That's a great quote!! Can I steal it?

FlyWright said:

That's a great quote!! Can I steal it?

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As long as you realize it may not be an accurate assessment...

Northern Spy said:

I am as skeptical about an artist's view of science as I am a scientist's view of art.

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Except for Da Vinci. He was equally gifted in both.

Wow,
Just finished reading all 54 "parts" to the Dead Ocean question and I must say, it is very interesting. Having sailed around the oceans, except Europe, I can say that I have indeed seen many "patches" of plastic floating around the Pacific and Atlantic oceans but have never seen anything resembling the "Islands of Plastic" that people mention. Although, I have not sailed in awhile so maybe it got worse? I also don't believe that there is any one group responsible for it, especially Japan. They had a terrible Natural Disaster that nobody could have prevented and to blame, if anyone, the Japanese people for that Texas sized "plastic island" is not fair. Anybody been in Rio DeJanero bay lately, I believe Brazil let's there raw sewage run directly into the Bay, and have seen 1st hand the murky condom filled brown waters of that bay. The Copa Cabana it is not. I read a lot of opinions on this topic in the past 54 posts and the one I believe to be most true is the fact that all counties , 1st, 2nd and 3rd world, need to help and if the so called 1st have more funds/knowledge to do so then so be it. I traveled through Brazil inland to the airport and I must say that it is down right sad to see how some people have to live. I always tell anyone who will listen, no matter how bad you think you got it (in the US), you have no idea what it is like to live in a 3rd world country. We, here in the US anyway, work to Play! Those in the so called 3rd world, they work to Eat! Most everybody here has the opportunity to make themselves better if they wish/want. Not many people living in "garden sheds" across those 3rd world countries have much of anything, let alone a choice to do better for themselves.
And on a Plastic note, not sure the exact date but as far back as the Early 90's at least, all US Flagged Vessels we required to burn there plastic. Not sure about other Flagged Vessels. When is the last time anybody saw a US Flagged Cruise Ship in port? That is because there are none, at least not to my knowledge, and that is because the US Coast Guard regulations are to "expensive" to follow, and US Crews are to expensive to hire.
Got a little long, but this is one thing I have seen 1st hand

There is no plastic island. That's been pretty well established as a media bs story. Sure, there is lots of plastic in the oceans, but this whole ideal of some pacific garbage island is rather fabricated. Too bad. There is enough of problem without making garbage islands up.

CMA1992 said:

And on a Plastic note, not sure the exact date but as far back as the Early 90's at least, all US Flagged Vessels we required to burn there plastic. Not sure about other Flagged Vessels. When is the last time anybody saw a US Flagged Cruise Ship in port? That is because there are none, at least not to my knowledge, and that is because the US Coast Guard regulations are to "expensive" to follow, and US Crews are to expensive to hire.
Got a little long, but this is one thing I have seen 1st hand

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I'll ad my expirence to this...

I worked off shore in the early 80's for Western Geophysical. At the time they were doing a lot of seismic work in the gulf, off of Louisiana and Texas and we'd go out for 15 to 20 days at a time. They had 5 or 6 boats out there with 10 to 15 man crews on each boat, all pulling a mile long cable and firing off controlled charges on the sides of the boat.
The part I found really disturbing was every night when we gathered up all the trash (5 or 6 large plastic bags a night) we simply went to the stern and threw it over board...oh and we were told to pierce the bags so they would sink. I can still remember those bags bobbing in the water off the stern, glistening in the full moon nights as we motored along. It was disturbing, even back then...and I'm no environmentalist wacko.

roguewave said:

I'll ad my expirence to this...


The part I found really disturbing was every night when we gathered up all the trash (5 or 6 large plastic bags a night) we simply went to the stern and threw it over board...oh and we were told to pierce the bags so they would sink. I can still remember those bags bobbing in the water off the stern, glistening in the full moon nights as we motored along. It was disturbing, even back then...and I'm no environmentalist wacko.

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In US waters it is required that each vessel have an acceptable USCG Waste Management Plan posted and signed by the Captain. Can't speak to what you did 20 years ago but things are different today. The fines are big and WG would be shutdown if that dumping you describe were to occur today.

It was not too many decades ago that trash barges from NYC went to sea on a daily basis. Yes, we're getting smarter.

sunchaser said:

It was not too many decades ago that trash barges from NYC went to sea on a daily basis. Yes, we're getting smarter.

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The trash barges in Asia still go to sea....maybe less than daily.

IMO the trash regularly flowing from rivers and floods overwhelms anything from shipping.
Don't forget to look I your own local river after a flood then imagine the river in the third world.