Ballast

Where would one find the proper rules for mounting Lead Ballast below with in a F.G. vessel.??

Lead shot inside doubled truck tire inner tubes cut into 14" pieces, then cable tie the ends. Each one ends up weighing 40# or so, and they can be nestled into odd shaped spaces.

Delfin said:

Lead shot inside doubled truck tire inner tubes cut into 14" pieces, then cable tie the ends. Each one ends up weighing 40# or so, and they can be nestled into odd shaped spaces.

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And, if new lead shot is too spendy, you can go to your local scrap metal yard and buy lead pigs, or you can scrounge the lead from plumbers, tire shops (wheel weights), indoor firing ranges, battery recyclers, and so on... your creativity is the limit. Y ou can easily melt it and pour it into a wooden box form or a coffee can. Put those in your bilge as they are clean, odor free, dry, and very easy to carry and stow. If you are really obsessed, you can make molds that fit between your frames just so, and each pig will fit perfectly.

Lead shot in inner tubes (I love that idea, Delfin) or lead pigs are also easy to adjust, and easy to remove when you want to clean or paint the bilges.

In a Grand Banks, knock-downs, broaching and pitch-poling are remote possibilities, so attaching the ballast, or pouring it in place are probably not going to be required.

A final thought, perhaps the design team at Grand Banks or the Grand Banks Owners Forum could provide more specific information.

LarryM said:

And, if new lead shot is too spendy, you can go to your local scrap metal yard and buy lead pigs, or you can scrounge the lead from plumbers, tire shops (wheel weights), indoor firing ranges, battery recyclers, and so on... your creativity is the limit. Y ou can easily melt it and pour it into a wooden box form or a coffee can. Put those in your bilge as they are clean, odor free, dry, and very easy to carry and stow. If you are really obsessed, you can make molds that fit between your frames just so, and each pig will fit perfectly.

Lead shot in inner tubes (I love that idea, Delfin) or lead pigs are also easy to adjust, and easy to remove when you want to clean or paint the bilges.

In a Grand Banks, knock-downs, broaching and pitch-poling are remote possibilities, so attaching the ballast, or pouring it in place are probably not going to be required.

A final thought, perhaps the design team at Grand Banks or the Grand Banks Owners Forum could provide more specific information.

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It wasn't my idea, but is sure works great. We used robust cable ties, one put on first to close the ends, then doubled the tail over and attached a second one to reduce the length and double seal it. What is nice is that they conform to pretty much whatever shape you have to work with. I stuffed around 1,000# under the generator stand, feeding them through the small opening available.

As you say, it is always a good idea to visualize your boat rolling through 360 degrees to imagine what shifts or goes flying when it happens.

Delfin said:

As you say, it is always a good idea to visualize your boat rolling through 360 degrees to imagine what shifts or goes flying when it happens.

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!! Yea, great thought . . . . how many of us have checked our battery boxes and other heavy objects lately? Sorry, thread creep.

Or picture the Ekones chairs in a Nordhavn flying through the windows when a major roll occurs, say 69 degrees in an Australia bar crossing locale.

Or picture the Ekones chairs in a Nordhavn flying through the windows when a major roll occurs, say 69 degrees in an Australia bar crossing locale.

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Blasphemy, You must be mistaken Nordhaven would never place loose furniture in a passagmaker....would they??

Got a question on ballast. Adding ballast means the boat will sit lower in the water, ergo, more wetted area, meaning a higher fuel burn. Am I correct?

Personally I wouldn't be adding any ballast without consulting a naval architect, better yet the one who designed the boat. And yes, ancora, that would be correct, there's always some compromise involved.

caltexflanc said:

Personally I wouldn't be adding any ballast without consulting a naval architect, better yet the one who designed the boat. And yes, ancora, that would be correct, there's always some compromise involved.

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Agreed. I wouldn't be second guessing the designer and/or manufacturer.

caltexflanc said:

Personally I wouldn't be adding any ballast without consulting a naval architect, better yet the one who designed the boat. And yes, ancora, that would be correct, there's always some compromise involved.

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If the vessel is made to sit on her design waterline with the addition and the ballast is added below that waterline, any naval architect I can think of would likely say "why not?" wouldn't they? How does lowering the center of gravity present a problem? I asking, not arguing, by the way.

RonT,

I guess it might be in order to ask why you feel the need to add ballast? Are you trying to correct the trim, or maybe compensate for something that will be added or removed?

Larry
M/V Boomarang

Didn't the Alaskan crab boat, Altair, sink in 1983 because somebody inadvertantly raised the bootstripe? The boat apperantly got loaded to its usual level (as indicated by the waterline) and sank because of instability issues.

That story would make me want to confirm that previous owners hadn't raised the bootstripe before adding significant ballast.

MurrayM said:

Didn't the Alaskan crab boat, Altair, sink in 1983 because somebody inadvertantly raised the bootstripe? The boat apperantly got loaded to its usual level (as indicated by the waterline) and sank because of instability issues.

That story would make me want to confirm that previous owners hadn't raised the bootstripe before adding significant ballast.

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Probably not much of an issue with a Grand Banks. Quite a few of them around. The Altair sank because crab pots were loaded on until the vessel was at an erroneously painted higher water line. This was not adding ballast as the OP suggests he is doing but adding significant weight above the center of gravity. Apples and oranges. Even if the waterline were too high on this vessel, adding weight in the bilges is only going to increase, not decrease stability. It may slow the vessel down, but it won't make it less stable.

Delfin said:

Probably not much of an issue with a Grand Banks. Quite a few of them around. .......

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So the question must be - Why would someone think they needed to add ballast to a boat when hundreds of the same design have been running around for many years without the need of additional ballast?

for the same reason people add stabilization to boats that are never sold with them...

the final manufactured product of almost anything is NEVER perfect.....

Delfin said:

If the vessel is made to sit on her design waterline with the addition and the ballast is added below that waterline, any naval architect I can think of would likely say "why not?" wouldn't they? How does lowering the center of gravity present a problem? I asking, not arguing, by the way.

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I'm not an NA, so I don't know. Lead costing what it does, and the hassle of installing it, why not spend a little and get an educated opinion?

psneeld said:

for the same reason people add stabilization to boats that are never sold with them.....

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And that would be?

Stabilizers.....pretty clear I think....

I am thinking of adding some ballast to my port quarter- stern. Reason being is 300' of chain in the forward locker and the slight tendency to sit starboard a little. I think the starboard slight list is because the aft head, the galley, and the lower helm are all on starboard side. I have had two people stand on the port side of the swim platform and it sits completely level so maybe 450 lbs or so would do it. Not trying to change the original dynamics, just offsetting added on items that threw it slightly off. I am still way good on waterline, stability, etc.

Jeff

Jbear said:

I am thinking of adding some ballast to my port quarter- stern. Reason being is 300' of chain in the forward locker and the slight tendency to sit starboard a little. I think the starboard slight list is because the aft head, the galley, and the lower helm are all on starboard side. I have had two people stand on the port side of the swim platform and it sits completely level so maybe 450 lbs or so would do it. Not trying to change the original dynamics, just offsetting added on items that threw it slightly off. I am still way good on waterline, stability, etc.

Jeff

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Anything on board that can help before you add the ballast?

I certainly know in our sized boats it's not always possible to move singular big or heavy things... but I have rearranged quite a bit in my boat and when all said and done...I'm back to level. Last year I had a bit of a list...but this summer's projects seems to have corrected it.

If not... I certainly wouldn't have a problem with adding less than 500 pounds of ballast to correct trim on my boat.

Jbear said:

I am thinking of adding some ballast to my port quarter- stern. Reason being is 300' of chain in the forward locker and the slight tendency to sit starboard a little. I think the starboard slight list is because the aft head, the galley, and the lower helm are all on starboard side. I have had two people stand on the port side of the swim platform and it sits completely level so maybe 450 lbs or so would do it. Not trying to change the original dynamics, just offsetting added on items that threw it slightly off. I am still way good on waterline, stability, etc.

Jeff

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1) Consider something more useful than "ballast". How about additional batteries?

2) Consider moving some of the stuff you probably have stored on your boat. Spare anchor and chain, spare boat parts, spare fluids, tools, etc.

It costs money to move extra weight through the water so try to make the weight count.

IMO ballast if added needs to be well secured in place. Not just put in place.

I've used 2 types of cheap ballast over the years and had no problems with either.
Buy bags of cement, place around the deck to find the correct trim, open a bag, place cement in bin bag liners, close with tie wrap (convenient weight to carry) place in a plastic carrier bag for transportation, place in desired position and remove the bin bag of cement from the carrier bag,place in position,mould to hull shape, make a tiny hole in the bin bag and it will solidify.
Mine have withstood a force 6 and never moved.
The other way is to acquire some used shotblast, and use the same as the cement described above but use sealed bags instead, or if convenient use 3'' plastic drain tube, cut to desired lengths and fit screw on ends, fill with shotblast and stow as required.

It costs money to move extra weight through the water so try to make the weight count.

Yes it does but on most displacement boats , it hardly matters.

For most boats 2hp or 3hp is all that is required to move a ton, 2240lbs.

Most boat diesels are no where near properly loaded so perhaps 12-15 hp comes from a gallon of fuel.

1/6 of a gallon per hour for 2240 lbs of goodies/ not that bad.

On a plaining boat , its very different.

It is not just stability and trim that need to be considered when adding / removing ballast-it is where you place it low of course is better but as mentioned above placing weight on one end to counter a weight on the other may create some major back breaking problems. The center of buoyancy and gravity will be altered. Imagine the longitudinal forces at work when the wave distances lift both the bow and stern at the same time and the forces trying to break the boat in half or the other way around where the top of wave is in the middle of the boat and you have too much weight in the bow and stern. All the calculations that the NA would perform can be found in "Stability and Trim For the Ships Officer" by John Ladge. Great reference.
Delfin: On this subject was the original lead ballast on the Delfin placed in the Grey Water Tank? I found it there on her sister.

ulysses said:

It is not just stability and trim that need to be considered when adding / removing ballast-it is where you place it low of course is better but as mentioned above placing weight on one end to counter a weight on the other may create some major back breaking problems. The center of buoyancy and gravity will be altered. Imagine the longitudinal forces at work when the wave distances lift both the bow and stern at the same time and the forces trying to break the boat in half or the other way around where the top of wave is in the middle of the boat and you have too much weight in the bow and stern. All the calculations that the NA would perform can be found in "Stability and Trim For the Ships Officer" by John Ladge. Great reference.
Delfin: On this subject was the original lead ballast on the Delfin placed in the Grey Water Tank? I found it there on her sister.

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I don't know. When I bought her, she was stripped empty, although the P.O., who was a naval architect, placed a few tons in the compartment forward of the 600 gallon potable water tank, below the sole in the forward cabin. After filling her back up again, I needed to add another couple tons on the starboard side in the ER for trim.

I found about a ton and a half in the grey water tank (lead ingots) will probably have to add more since I took the crows nest/mast down. Glad the lead was not placed in the fresh water tank.

ulysses said:

I found about a ton and a half in the grey water tank (lead ingots) will probably have to add more since I took the crows nest/mast down. Glad the lead was not placed in the fresh water tank.

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If you have the same compartment forward I have, it is ideal for ballast.

Fwd. compartment is anchor chain (inside collision bulkhead)potable water tank with Bow thruster tube, then grey water. Appears my potable water tank is larger than yours that must be the area that you have your ballast in.