Yearly Maintenance

JW/PS-not to get too far adrift here, but my Dad was a Chosin survivor. He was also a USMC Captain at the time, artillery battery commander. He received a Bronze Star, Silver Star with Oak Leaf cluster and 3 Purple Hearts for his time there. He was a USNA grad and a career Marine retiring as a brigadier general. He would tell us about having to light fires under trucks to thaw the oil before trucks could be started (had to get something about oil in here!)

For many years up to his death a few years ago, he was a member of a Reunion group, The Chosin Few.

THD--- Your father was obviusly a remarkable man, and it's the service of guys like that that enable the rest of us to do the things we do today.

With regards to the viscocity of oil, I read an article in New Yorker magazine a number of years ago about the truckers who took oilfield equipment from the manufacturers in Texas to the then-new North Slope oilfield in Alaska. They did this in winter when the Haul Road from Fairbanks to the wells was more solid.

The trucks were never shut off from the time they left Texas to the time they got back. At night on the Alaska Hiighway in BC, the Yukon, and Alaska, the drivers had to leave their motel rooms every couple of hours and run the trucks back and forth in the parking lots for a bit to keep the lube oil in the transmissions and differentials limber.

Am I missing something here? you have a nice boat and are whining about a once per year oil change?... Come on, when you bought your boat, surely you knew it had to be maintained. Get a Gulf Coast Filter set up and regular oil analysis, and don't change oil until they say it is due. Regular oil changes are unnecessary with oil analysis, and GCF.

Sailor of Fortune said:

Am I missing something here? you have a nice boat and are whining about a once per year oil change?... Come on, when you bought your boat, surely you knew it had to be maintained. Get a Gulf Coast Filter set up and regular oil analysis, and don't change oil until they say it is due. Regular oil changes are unnecessary with oil analysis, and GCF.

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Well, our cars say 12500 miles or one year and 10000 miles or a year. We change them annually. If I used a boat that little, I'd do the same. I'd probably still get the oil analyzed simply because it can forewarn sometimes. I'd definitely do one or the other. I'm not going to risk my engines by shortcutting routine maintenance even if it might be unnecessary. Now I don't listen to the car service centers saying 3000 or 5000 miles or six months. And I wouldn't listen to shipyards saying every six months. I just follow the manufacturers recommendation.

manyboats said:

"Idling at 1400rpm" isn't a load Marin .. It's a high idle.

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Uh oH. I think that's my normal cruise rpm.

One seems to need to run a diesel engine in the upper RPMs to create a decent load. On my JD, idle (750 RPM) moves the boat at half speed but there is less than a 10% load on the engine. "Normal" cruise speed of 1800 RPM (one knot under hull speed) equals 42% load. "Full" cruise (hull) speed is reached at 2200 RPM with 75% load. 1400 RPM creates only 22% load.

Test kits at Blackstone Labs are free, analysis is $25 + shipping cost. Eight quarts of Shell Rotella 15w-40 cost me $30 at Pep Boys last Saturday. Been a year since I changed oil & filter, will do so Saturday. Don't plan to test the oil. If something in the Perkins breaks, I'll deal with it then.

I started Blackstone labs and think the analysis is worth it....early detection of fuel dilution or antifreeze in the oil is worth the 25 bucks even if every month...all the rest is icing on the cake.

>One seems to need to run a diesel engine in the upper RPMs to create a decent load. On my JD, idle (750 RPM) moves the boat at half speed but there is less than a 10% load on the engine. "Normal" cruise speed of 1800 RPM (one knot under hull speed) equals 42% load. "Full" cruise (hull) speed is reached at 2200 RPM with 75% load. 1400 RPM creates only 22% load.<

Sounds like a perfect candidate for a cruising prop.

THD said:

JW/PS-

For many years up to his death a few years ago, he was a member of a Reunion group, The Chosin Few.

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At the risk of a slight hijack, what is the 'Chosin', it's something I'm not familiar with

The Chosin Reservoir/Lake was the site of a major battle during the Korean War.

Andy G said:

At the risk of a slight hijack, what is the 'Chosin', it's something I'm not familiar with

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The frozen Chosin Reservoir in North Korea when the Chinese came across the Yalu River and over ran the US Marines. It was bitterly cold, and a bitter fight. The survivors and the ones they left were true heroes.

It refers to the Chosin Reservoir where a battle occurred in the Korean War.

Battle of Chosin Reservoir - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Lots of great oil and USMC stories here. One question about sampling. If you are not changing and pumping out lots of nice warm oil, what is the easy way to get enough for a sample? Do they make oil syringes? It has always been change the oil and filters both for me, but I would like to sample and skip a change if tests ok. Getting a nice 2oz sample is a puzzle.

The engine surveyor who checked the engines and generator in the boat we subsequently bought took his samples through the dipstick tubes. I believe he had a bulb syringe, sort of like a miniature turkey baster. The engines were thoroughly warmed up by that time from our sea trial a bit earlier and his running the engines through their paces. He pulled the oil samples and put them in little jars (plastic I assume) to send to the lab.

As I understand it, the oil needs to be hot, not because it has to be hot, but because the engines have to have been run long enough to thoroughly mix up the oil which of course heats up the oil in the process. Also, pulling cold lube oil out the dipstick tube is a frustrating experience (I had to do it once).

A one-time oil analysis will tell you the state of the oil at that particular moment, but the real value of an analysis program is to show trends. Given the relatively infrequent use most cruising boat engines get, I was told by the folks we know in the diesel engine manufacturing business that assuming the engines checked out okay, which they did, we'd be just fine changing the oil and filters on a regular interval, calendar or Hobbs meter, take your choice. Having oil analyses (sp?) done regularly would most likely result in paying for a whole lot of oil analyses that said the same thing.

In a very high time engine it may be worthwhile to have analyses done on some kind of schedule. But in lower-time engines like ours the advice was to perform regular servicing and not spend money on oil analyses.

My sampling company (Blackstone) told me one important thing is to tell them anything out of the ordinary from normal sampling procedures. Like if you took it not as hot or run as long as normal or taken a different way or spot. They will consider this when they give their opinion on the sample.

Someone awhile back here mentioned putting a "t" with petcock on one of the oil lines to take a sample with the engine running...sounds reasonable or just another place to leak/fail....depends on how you view minor complication.

Yes, the oil should be warm so that is mixed as it is in the operating mode. I used Detroit Diesel's service, which was done by ALS labs. The sample bottle itself is an accordian affair to which you attach a length of tubing supplied with it. You squeeze the bottle down and as it slowly expanded , in comes the oil. There are also kits you can get from the labs with purpose built pumps that attach to the sample bottles. The key is to use fresh tubing for each sample. Here's an example of lab instructions and use of the little pumps:

http://www.jglubricantservices.com/docs/Oil Sampling Procedure.pdf

Blackstone's a little less anal about the "operating room" procedures...not sure why but they seem to have a good reputation despite their only really basic warning of try not to contaminate.

Blackstone

1. Run the engine (don't just idle) before you take the sample to get the oil at operating temperature — about 20 minutes should do it. Getting the oil up to operating temperature should help cook out any normal moisture or fuel build-up.
   
2. [FONT=Arial,Helvetica,Geneva,Sans-serif][SIZE=-1]If you're taking your sample while changing the oil, let some oil drain before you fill up the bottle. Try not to get either the first or the last oil out of the pan.
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3. [FONT=Arial,Helvetica,Geneva,Sans-serif][SIZE=-1]If you can't access the pan and need to use a pump, thread the tube down the dipstick and pump a sample up into the sampling bottle.
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4. [FONT=Arial,Helvetica,Geneva,Sans-serif][SIZE=-1]We need 3 oz to complete all our tests. But even if you only have 1 oz, we can still do at least two, if not three, of our tests. If you have questions about whether we'll be able to work with your sample, call us.
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5. [FONT=Arial,Helvetica,Geneva,Sans-serif][SIZE=-1]Complete the oil sample information slip.
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6. [FONT=Arial,Helvetica,Geneva,Sans-serif][SIZE=-1]For the Unit Number field, please identify what you'd like to call this engine (e.g., Port, Starboard, Generator).
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7. [FONT=Arial,Helvetica,Geneva,Sans-serif][SIZE=-1]For the Make-Up Oil field, please put the number of quarts added between oil changes.
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8. [FONT=Arial,Helvetica,Geneva,Sans-serif][SIZE=-1]Wrap the oil sample in the gray material and put both in the plastic bag. Roll together the sample, information slip, and a check or credit card number. Put it all in the black mailer tube and send it to us.[/SIZE][/FONT]

here's a couple of their FAQs

I took a sample three months ago and forgot to send it in. It's been on a shelf in my garage ever since. Can I still send it in? Will the results still be good?


Well, when I took the sample this time, I forgot to catch it as it was coming out, so I had to dip my sample out of the drain pan. Is that okay?

Marin you are right 1400rpm on your boat is a load. A light load. But enough for what you are doing and I should'nt have been critical.

But your coolant temperature dosn't say much about engine temp. Percent of load will and oil temp will. So if 1400rpm in gear at the float gets your oil temp up to 170 that's a warmed up engine. My own Mitsubishi warms it's coolant up to 180 in less than 5 minutes at my "high idle" of 1100rpm out of gear. Takes time and load to warm a diesel engine.

Sorry about my comment though Marin. Do you run BOTH engines in gear at 1400? That should be quite a strain on your cleats and mooring lines. All the boats in the harbor should be wiggling around. And I hope you're not putting a 6 knot side current in the fairway.

What is the value of an oil sample for a recreational boater who changes oil by the book? This comes from one who has been in the non boat diesel game for a long time with literally tens of thosuands of oil samples under my belt for commercial diesels.

sunchaser said:

What is the value of an oil sample for a recreational boater who changes oil by the book? This comes from one who has been in the non boat diesel game for a long time with literally tens of thosuands of oil samples under my belt for commercial diesels.

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Pretty much the same, early detection of wear metals, soot, contaminants like water, glycol, fuel. Here are few interesting epistles:

Four Lethal Diesel Engine Oil Contaminants


Kleenoil Bypass Oil Filter System - Bypass Oil Filtration - Understanding Oil Analysis Results

Don't forget to do the transmissions! They have a little different set of critical issues, wear metal wise.

Eric-- You're correct, the coolant temp doesn't tell you what the cylinder temps are. But it's a pretty good bet that if the coolant temp is at its normal setting the rest of the engine is, too. Obviously the thermostat is going to account for some differences as the engine is warming up. But once thing are up and stabilized, coolant temp is a good indicator that the cylinder temp is correct. Otherwise, every liquid cooled piece of equipment on the planet wouldn't be using coolant temp as the primary indicator for the operator to know that the engine temp is okay.

However, our boat also has EGT probes and gauges, and that is a much more accurate indication of what's going on in the cylinders.

No, we don't run both engines in gear at the same time. We run them one at a time. We originally ran them at the same time with one in forward and one in reverse. But on the advice of a transmission shop we don't do that anymore.

And because of the direction of the prevailing storm winds in the bay, which during the winter can be 40-50 mph with gusts recorded as high as 80 mph, we have several aft-running spring lines. So even if we ran both engines in gear together, I doubt the boat would go anywhere.

A lot of boaters, power and sail, do what we do, particularly in the winter. The propwash goes out into the fairway and doesn't seem to have any effect on the boats on the other side. When the boats across from us do this, we don't feel anything.

Astral Blue said:

Contrary to most people's beliefs, frequent oil changes are not necessary. I seldom change my oil. I replace filters often, but not the oil. I send the oil for an analysis; and if problems do not show up in it, I do not change it. I have over 300 hours on the current oil change. Two oil analyses into it, not a single issue. Here is some good reading:

Motor Oil 101 - Bob is the Oil Guy - Bob is the Oil Guy

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Astral Blue said:

Very interesting reading. I use Delo 15W40 oil. My engine manual gives options of the oils I can use. Wonder if anyone has used the semi-synthetic oil the manual mentions.

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caltexflanc said:

Pretty much the same, early detection of wear metals, soot, contaminants like water, glycol, fuel. .

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I agree with what you posted, but my question (excluding those who use additive packages and are more astute) is more basic. What use are oil samples for the average recreational boater who operate their systems lightly loaded and rack up less than a few hundred hours per year ?

Unfortunately all too many think oil samples once per year will tell them the nuts and bolts of their various mechanicals. Much better is to know that marine age, poor preventative maintenance and underuse are the real villains with our lightly loaded trawlers.

Insuring the oil sample results are good is the crux of the issue IMHO. So what to do is simple - follow the recommended time intervals in your manuals.

You mentioned transmissions - with most of ours operating at less than 25% design load they will not wear out from use rather they will wear out because of neglect and not replacing the HX before it holes through. An oil sample showing salt water in your transmission is way too late, better to treat the HX as a throw away item.

Oh, be sure to check your fluid levels every morning when you are cruising particularly for color, water and diesel fuel intrusion.

Last but certainly not least, for the most of us, we have after coolers. They are ticking time bombs if not watched closely and serviced properly.

Astral Blue said:

Contrary to most people's beliefs, frequent oil changes are not necessary. I seldom change my oil. I replace filters often, but not the oil. I send the oil for an analysis; and if problems do not show up in it, I do not change it. I have over 300 hours on the current oil change. Two oil analyses into it, not a single issue. Here is some good reading:

Motor Oil 101 - Bob is the Oil Guy - Bob is the Oil Guy

Anecdotally speaking, I have yet to come across a single instance where an engine sustained damage due to the oil not being new enough. There are tons of examples of damage from engines running low on oil, contamination in oil, or an obstruction due to a dirty filter and faulty diverter valve, or oil pump malfunctioning...but not due to oil not being new enough.

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It is your boat and treat it as you see fit. Some of us have larger more complex vessels cruising to far away places and don't want to run the risk of being off the industry acceptable norm maintenance protocols.

BTW, my book states 400 hour oil changes or annually if low sulfur fuel is used.

You mentioned transmissions - with most of ours operating at less than 25% design load they will not wear out from use rather they will wear out because of neglect and not replacing the HX before it holes through. An oil sample showing salt water in your transmission is way too late, better to treat the HX as a throw away item.

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Could you expand on that? I am personally not familiar with transmissions that use an HX. Some of the key indicators for my Allisons, for example, are silver and evidence of clutch material. Start seeing the silver readings ramp up, start saving for a rebuild. Even at 25% load levels, abuse can be present through improper practices.

sunchaser said:

It is your boat and treat it as you see fit. Some of us have larger more complex vessels cruising to far away places and don't want to run the risk of being off the industry acceptable norm maintenance protocols.

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What size is your boat? And what makes it so complex?

Capt.Bill11 said:

What size is your boat? And what makes it so complex?

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I said my vessel is more complex than a 27 foot 37 year old Bayliner.

caltexflanc said:

Could you expand on that? I am personally not familiar with transmissions that use an HX. Some of the key indicators for my Allisons, for example, are silver and evidence of clutch material. Start seeing the silver readings ramp up, start saving for a rebuild. Even at 25% load levels, abuse can be present through improper practices.

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How does your TX fluid get cooled. My Hurths use raw water heat exchangers as do the other marine diesel TX s I'm familiar with.

sunchaser said:

I said my vessel is more complex than a 27 foot 37 year old Bayliner.

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I didn't see what size boat you were comparing to. Thanks.