caltexflanc
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Hmm, are you guys saying that if I had a drink or two while operating my boat it might impair the (bad) judgements I make when I am 100% sober?
Drinking and Boating
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Anyone who believes or is fooled into thinking that drinking any amount of alcohol and operating any type equipment is OK - is either in denial... or plain dumb!
It IS medical proven fact that ANY amount of alcohol in ANY person's system has detrimental effects on several levels... the more %age alcohol in blood the greater the effect.
All the other items that may slow thought process, reaction time, and disengagement/adjustment of equipment mat be necessary during equipment operations. Drinking alcohol is NOT necessary and ALL its proven detrimental effects CAN be completely put to rest by simply not allowing (be encumbered by) alcohol in your system.
How can any intelligent person even begin to question this proven, logical fact??? Unless in the insidious grips of mental denial!
It IS medical proven fact that ANY amount of alcohol in ANY person's system has detrimental effects on several levels... the more %age alcohol in blood the greater the effect.
All the other items that may slow thought process, reaction time, and disengagement/adjustment of equipment mat be necessary during equipment operations. Drinking alcohol is NOT necessary and ALL its proven detrimental effects CAN be completely put to rest by simply not allowing (be encumbered by) alcohol in your system.
How can any intelligent person even begin to question this proven, logical fact??? Unless in the insidious grips of mental denial!
BDofMSP
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I'm sorry but now you're just making things up. Show me a study where I perform some simple task, and you put a drop of beer on my tongue and I suddenly can't perform that task exactly as well.
There is certainly a vast wealth of evidence that alcohol impairs fine motor coordination and reaction times (when measured in precise detail and timing) at various percentages of blood concentration. But there is no single study that I am aware of that shows any significant impact at "ANY amount"
So please stop making assessments of my psychological status based on made up facts.
Mule - There is also such a thing as "maintenance drinking", a term defining those who consistently drink alcohol; or need to. Think about it.
One aspect of "responsible drinking" referrers to a person who never operates equipment with any alcohol in their system.
If a person is never without alcohol in system and seldom without an alcohol content drink in hand, although maybe not deemed drunk regarding general visual attributes (because they have learned to relatively well compensate for their addiction), is defined as a "maintenance drinker".
Those who drink often/always are sometimes termed a "heavy drinker". Sometimes termed an "alcoholic".
Each person needs to make their own call about themselves and take self actions as needed. Denial strikes deep! I know.
I think the notion that fast reactions are not something that is needed in an 8 knot boat is misleading. No, we don't have cars coming at us at 60-70 mph or popping out of side streets or doing other unexpected things.
But there are times when we've had to react very fast to something in the water. It is probably different in other boating areas, but as has been mentioned before, there can be a fair amount of debris in the water in this area. This ranges from crab and shrimp pot floats and lines to errant logs and pieces of lumber, to entire trees. If the water conditions are good (flat-ish) and the light is right, these things are easily spotted by a helmsman who's paying attention.
But when the waves kick up, especially if the light is bad or everything out front of the boat is backlit, these things, even the big ones, may not become evident until the boat is right on top of them. There have been plenty of instances when we've have had to take an "evasive maneuver," usually the so-called Titanic maneuver, to avoid something we simply didn't see until it was right in front of the bow.
So boating with one's abilities impaired even to a small degree can, I believe, not only affect one's ability to concentrate on picking out things in the water, but can also slow one's reaction when something does appear right in front of the boat. This may not be an issue in other parts of the country. But it definitely is here.
On the subject of debris in these waters, for anyone interested i put a post on the West Coast cruising section of this forum illustrating one reason there is so much of it in the water up here.
But there are times when we've had to react very fast to something in the water. It is probably different in other boating areas, but as has been mentioned before, there can be a fair amount of debris in the water in this area. This ranges from crab and shrimp pot floats and lines to errant logs and pieces of lumber, to entire trees. If the water conditions are good (flat-ish) and the light is right, these things are easily spotted by a helmsman who's paying attention.
But when the waves kick up, especially if the light is bad or everything out front of the boat is backlit, these things, even the big ones, may not become evident until the boat is right on top of them. There have been plenty of instances when we've have had to take an "evasive maneuver," usually the so-called Titanic maneuver, to avoid something we simply didn't see until it was right in front of the bow.
So boating with one's abilities impaired even to a small degree can, I believe, not only affect one's ability to concentrate on picking out things in the water, but can also slow one's reaction when something does appear right in front of the boat. This may not be an issue in other parts of the country. But it definitely is here.
On the subject of debris in these waters, for anyone interested i put a post on the West Coast cruising section of this forum illustrating one reason there is so much of it in the water up here.
I respectfully say: You seem a mite pissie over this conversation. Is that denial or stupidity to have stated that comparison? You drinking today?? Just wondered...
Please get real... with yourself and what effect an amount of alcohol (not a silly drop on your tongue) does have on physical and mental and nerve reactions in the human body. It's proven medical fact!
BDofMSP
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Marin,
I agree completely that things can happen extremely quickly. Sometimes they can't be seen at all and they just happen. But my point is that the reduction in reaction times at very small levels of alcohol (below legal levels) is not significant, and certainly is much less than other things that we do all the time, like have a conversation, or look at a chart, or have to disengage the autopilot go veer around a log.
It's not the impairment I'm taking exception with. It's the idea that there is something magical about alcohol related impairment, and that somehow any microscopic amount is tantamount to drunk driving.
I agree completely that things can happen extremely quickly. Sometimes they can't be seen at all and they just happen. But my point is that the reduction in reaction times at very small levels of alcohol (below legal levels) is not significant, and certainly is much less than other things that we do all the time, like have a conversation, or look at a chart, or have to disengage the autopilot go veer around a log.
It's not the impairment I'm taking exception with. It's the idea that there is something magical about alcohol related impairment, and that somehow any microscopic amount is tantamount to drunk driving.
BDofMSP
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Art,
I'll ignore your incredibly rude innuendo. The point of the "drop" analogy is that there actually IS some amount that is safe. Now we can have a conversation about what that amount is. You were previously stating (in CAPS) that any amount was unacceptable. Which is patently false.
I'll ignore your incredibly rude innuendo. The point of the "drop" analogy is that there actually IS some amount that is safe. Now we can have a conversation about what that amount is. You were previously stating (in CAPS) that any amount was unacceptable. Which is patently false.
Thanks! But, which one??
Drinkers often ignore innuendos about alcohol consumption. Just sayen!
Show you a study? You should be able to figure this out for yourself.
Nobody is talking about a single drop of beer and nobody drinks just a single drop of beer.
Really, I'm thinking you are being pretty defensive here and that means there may be a problem.
BDofMSP
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Art,
I don't think that Trawler Forum could care less whether I'm an alcoholic or not, so I wonder why you continue to discuss it here. If you have such concerns they would be better shared as a PM, instead of trying to bait and belittle me publicly.
I'm just sayen.
I don't think that Trawler Forum could care less whether I'm an alcoholic or not, so I wonder why you continue to discuss it here. If you have such concerns they would be better shared as a PM, instead of trying to bait and belittle me publicly.
I'm just sayen.
People should care if you're an alcoholic and try to help you. If you don't want help, that's fine. I have friends like that.
The important thing is for you and everyone else to understand what alcohol does to motor skills, reflexes and judgement and stay away from operating a boat if you've been drinking alcohol.
The important thing is for you and everyone else to understand what alcohol does to motor skills, reflexes and judgement and stay away from operating a boat if you've been drinking alcohol.
I am about as far removed from the medical field as it's possible to get. But I suspect that a blanket statement like the one above is not possible to make. I suspect the level of impairment form any "altering" substance will vary widely from individual to individual. Some may exhibit few or no signs of impairment. Another person may find themselves very much impaired after imbibing the same amount of alcohol or drugs.
I've been to plenty of gatherings over the years, particularly when I was younger, when the participants all drank about the same amount of the same thing, yet some remained apparently functional while others couldn't stand without assistance.
So to assume that "Joe" will operate his boat just fine after a beer or two and so will be no threat to the people on his boat and the boats around him is a bad assumption to make, I think.
I happen to agree with those who believe that doing anything that carries the risk of reducing one's ability to observe things, make judgements about what is going on around them, and react to situations that may arise, is not a smart thing to be doing.
Nobody ever makes a mistake until they do. Nobody makes an error in judgement and hurts or kills someone until they do. Everyone is convinced they can handle the affects of alcohol or drugs until the moment they find out they can't.
Sure, observation, judgement, and reaction can be impaired by a lot of other things besides alcohol. A bad headache can do it, a bad day at the office can do it. But my approach to doing anything, particularly something that can potentially affect others lives--- be it driving a vehicle, flying a plane, running a boat, riding a bicycle, you name it--- is that I want as much stacked in favor of success as I possibly can.
So I don't deliberately do things that have been proven to have the potential to reduce one's chances for success. In this case, success means operating a boat without incident or accident, or injury or death to anyone I am assuming responsibility for by taking the boat out.
BDofMSP
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I do understand that, but only because I've attended training and conducted research personally on the subject. Certainly I haven't learned anything from this thread.
And I have never operated a boat legally impaired. But yes, I have had ANY amount of alcohol in my system while operating.
Don't mean to belittle you... or anyone else... do mean to open eyes if at all possible for folks that don't realize the extent of problems alcohol consumption can create - for them and others. Ron has more than once said it perfectly regarding concern for anyone that drinks too much as well as the effects that alcohol consumption has regarding operating equipment.
I have friends dead from alcohol consumption; both from self abuse and from driving alcoholics killing them. I go way back in the alcohol world on many levels, you could say "I have a feel for the deal"... amongst other things... while young I built, owned, and operated a rowdy fisherman's tavern restaurant along Maine's Penobscot Bay. Truly responsible, occasional, limited amount drinking of alcohol is not a problem Abusive use is.
I say to every person - if you think you have an alcohol problem, it is likely you do. In that case I recommend qualified professional assessment of your lifestyle regarding your alcohol consumption. Then take appropriate steps to remove that problem. It may elongate your health as well as to save yours and others lives.
I'm allergic to alcohol... so I studied and learned tools to not drink. 11/25/1996 was my last drink. I hope you understand what I say.
Portuguese
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...Sorry guys. I only saw this one now. Drinking and boating, nobody ever saw me drunk. Yet, the consumption of good outstanding rhum is one of rare joys at the sunset and one of the reasons I picked a boat to leave in in my retirement. Some pleasures in life don't come alone!
Portuguese
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BaltimoreLurker
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Maybe I'm an outlier here, but I never drink alcohol for refreshment. I drink alcohol for the buzz. Maybe it's my unrefined palate.
Poach
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Is it possible to sum this discussion thread up: 1) If what I do hurts you, hurts me or hurts others, it is my responsibility and if I want to have a drink while boating, that's my choice. 2) If what you do hurts me or mine it will be a dark day in hell for you if you had any alcohol in your system. 3) Drinking while boating and not hurting anyone or damaging property, is just luck and happenstance. 4) Drinking anything any time is bad for you and I am here to tell you to your face.
That pretty much it?
That pretty much it?
Very true, Marin. It's not the same even for one person every time. Depends on many things such as what they've eaten, how much sleep they've had, how hydrated they are, their mood at the time. I've seen people who normally show few signs over several drinks, end up somewhat out of things on the sofa after two. I know some people that it's hard to tell because they act strange all the time. Then I know some who seem to change when they pick the glass up.
Mule
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I do not recall saying anything about maintenance drinking. I just finished air conditioning maintenance, bilge pump maintenance and battery maintenance and I do not recall mentioning them either....but those terms are part of my vocab, unlike maintenance drinking. Now if you will excuse me I have to testify, My name is Cooter and I drink on occasion.
Lighten up, some people (convinced genetic) have NO Business drinking but not everybody. I hit the scales at 250lb and rest assured I can drink a beer with lunch while piloting with NO side effects.
RT Firefly
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Greetings,
Can't find it now but I also recall some study that suggested awareness and reaction times improved with an initial small amount of alcohol but also noted things went downhill rapidly with increasing dosages. If there is any merit to this study at all I would NOT suggest it be used to justify drinking.
My mate will have a beer occasionally and a glass of wine with a meal. Impaired? Possibly but not to a level I would worry about.
Can't find it now but I also recall some study that suggested awareness and reaction times improved with an initial small amount of alcohol but also noted things went downhill rapidly with increasing dosages. If there is any merit to this study at all I would NOT suggest it be used to justify drinking.
My mate will have a beer occasionally and a glass of wine with a meal. Impaired? Possibly but not to a level I would worry about.
Well, there are similar health studies on a glass of wine or a beer occasionally. But similarly that doesn't mean a six pack every night or a bottle of wine every night is good. All things in moderation.
Now I know very few people who drink one beer or one glass of wine. Mostly they drink none or more.
230+ posts ago this was the original request. While I haven't read every single post, for the most part the thread seems to have been comprised of people explaining why they think people shouldn't drink and operate a boat, and other people explaining why they think it's okay to drink and operate a boat.
But I'm not sure anyone ever actually succinctly addressed the original request, including me. So....
1. I think anyone who consumes alcohol in any amount before or while operating a vessel is a fool.
2. Anyone who consumes alcohol in any amount before or while operating a vessel automatcally loses all credibility as far as I'm concerned, with anything to do with boats or boating.
3. I don't want anyone who consumes alcohol in any amount before or while operating a vessel on my boat, on my dock, in my marina, on my bay, on the waters I boat it, or in this part of the world.
Those, Ron, are my opinions on the subject of operating a boat while drinking.
An interesting study on the effects on light drinkers versus heavy drinkers. The conclusion was that the effect of alcohol and level of impairment was the same. The difference was the heavy drinkers perceived themselves to be less impaired.
That's the old "I can handle my alcohol" and basically there is nothing to support that statement. One just feels like they're handling it better. So while other factors do account for differences, light drinkers versus heavy drinkers appear to be impacted the same.
http://addictions.uchicago.edu/carl/DandAlcDependence Brumback.pdf
That's the old "I can handle my alcohol" and basically there is nothing to support that statement. One just feels like they're handling it better. So while other factors do account for differences, light drinkers versus heavy drinkers appear to be impacted the same.
http://addictions.uchicago.edu/carl/DandAlcDependence Brumback.pdf
Mule
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Well, Martin, it is not perfect world as you envision it and much of the world really do not GAS what you want and last time I checked you are not yet King of the world.....keep on wanting, trying and wishing. Who am I to crush anyone's dreams.
SCOTTEDAVIS
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Really??? Who cares, them that's gonna are gonna, them that wont, wont. Anyone really care what some internet dwelling folks think?
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Important entry B!!
That said - My "normie" (some will understand the weight of that term) wife is an occasional one drink drinker. I abstain completely, have for nearing 19 years; and, plan to continue thusly.
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