Yearly Maintenance

I know the conventional wisdom is that we are to change the oil, oil filters, fuel filters and air filters every year, however i do not understand why we have to do this (I do it!). For example my engine (IVECO) manual says to change the oil/oil filter after 600hrs or yearly. I put only 200hrs on the engine last year and only about 20hrs on the genset (NL). I am in the PNW and routinely run the engines during the winter months for 1/2 hr or so every month. So why the need to change all the components yearly when the boat is not heavily used? Is this overkill? Changing the oil on my engine requires 12-14 ltrs.

Greetings,
Mr. a. Welcome aboard. I think one of the reasons for the oil change based on calendar time as opposed to engine hours is to eliminate combustion by products and corrosives sitting against the metallic parts of the engine (bearings etc.) for a prolonged period of time. If one changed oil, as in your case, every 3 years (based on engine hours), your expensive parts would be sitting in an acidity increasing solution of oil for these extra 2 years.

The proper way to determine when to change your oil is by fluid analysis.

In your case I would not change the oil in the genset. And since your engine manufacturer recommend a change at 600 hrs. I would pull a sample and have it tested while changing just the filter. You may find that is all you have to do for the next couple of years.

The reality is that oil can last much, much long than many people want to believe. And with proper bypass filtration and analysis you can get hundreds of hours out it before the need to change it.

On the larger vessel I run I like to install bypass filters on my gensets, use synthetic oil and do oil analysis. With that combination I've gone years without changing oil.

On the mains I like to do analysis and go by those results as to when to change the oil.

On smaller private boat some of this may not be cost effective. But if you use your boat a lot and will be keeping it for a long time it could be,

I have a different take. My suspicion is that the yearly oil change recommendation comes from northern climates where boats are used for 4-5 months and then put away for the season. Change the oil at the end of the season so that you have clean oil sitting there. I suspect with modern anticorrosion additives and low sulfur diesel, that recommendation is no longer valid.

I boat in a 9 month area (well the three summer months are pretty well wasted) so I change my oil on hours not the calendar.

David

Rather than trying to out smart the engine and transmission manufacturers, I more or less just do what they say. Very nominal expense in the greater scheme of things especially given the criticality of the systems involved. And yes, I do oil analyses every change, including an interim on the transmissions, which leads to the "more or less" hedging within a very small variance.

My 2 cents and worth much less.

Calendar based maintenance is no brainer easy to remember stuff for us low usage recreational boaters. In the big picture of small boats it's a small expense and cheap insurance.

On moderately larger boats than the majority of us forum dwellers typically own oil changes can easily run many hundreds to thousands of dollars and be a very large undertaking depending upon boat layout and how it is equipped. Getting away from the calendar and hour meter make complete sense to me then, but to each his own.

caltexflanc said:

Rather than trying to out smart the engine and transmission manufacturers, I more or less just do what they say. Very nominal expense in the greater scheme of things especially given the criticality of the systems involved. And yes, I do oil analyses every change, including an interim on the transmissions, which leads to the "more or less" hedging within a very small variance.

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I do exactly what they say. Now I've never had the issue of the time for an oil change coming before the hours so not faced this circumstance. I know we're often times replacing perfectly good oil, but then I take pleasure in finding out how good it is upon analysis.

If it was a large commercial or military ship, I'd be different. I had a friend who never changed the oil in his car. Not seldom, but never. He based that decision after supposedly serving on a submarine where they never changed oil. I would say not comparable and certainly wouldn't recommend taking it to his level.

Saying a year probably evolved from seasonality. One advantage is that you change in the off season, so you don't have to in the middle of next year's boating season.

Contrary to most people's beliefs, frequent oil changes are not necessary. I seldom change my oil. I replace filters often, but not the oil. I send the oil for an analysis; and if problems do not show up in it, I do not change it. I have over 300 hours on the current oil change. Two oil analyses into it, not a single issue. Here is some good reading:

Motor Oil 101 - Bob is the Oil Guy - Bob is the Oil Guy

Anecdotally speaking, I have yet to come across a single instance where an engine sustained damage due to the oil not being new enough. There are tons of examples of damage from engines running low on oil, contamination in oil, or an obstruction due to a dirty filter and faulty diverter valve, or oil pump malfunctioning...but not due to oil not being new enough.

BandB said:

I had a friend who never changed the oil in his car. Not seldom, but never.

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Whatever you do don't ever buy a car from him!

HOLLYWOOD

Oil change

I had a few highway trucks and recommended oil change was based on usage. Standard local delivery was 33,000 mile interval. Highway was 100k or so. I had an old Detroit powered International dump truck that was used for dump runs and hauling dirt and road base around. It leaked so much oil I figured I effectively changed it once every 6 months, so I occasional changed the filters. Ran that old truck for 15 years, it always started and always got the job done. Far as I know it still has the original oil in it. I have been much better about my personal cars, mostly to satisfy warranty issues. I had several BMW's that were on their maintenance program, the oil change intervals varied based on the computer, my changes always were over 10k apart. It bothered me at first, the BMW service techs in their arrogance touted better BMW oil and filters. Well they may have been right about the oil, but the rest of the problems plagued those cars had to do with superior German engineering. I run block heaters in my Detroit's and change the oil every other year, about 300 hours. I am a big proponent for block heaters, even in temperate conditions. My engines rest at 90 degrees, keeps my engine room dry and corrosion free. My oil never cools enough to condensation in it. I suspect we all baby our boats more than we need to. My grandfather was plant manager for Chevrolet in the 50's, he maintained never change the oil only the filters, keep the cars appearance up and get rid of it every three years.
Cars must have been cheap in those days. I drive them until the paint falls off and the seats have holes in them. Never had a engine fail due to oil.

When in the warranty period best do it by the book. There is no downside to book maintenance. If one is lazy or cheap the boat will suffer in all sorts of areas. A nice boat like a big diesel duck is an investment. Treat it right and the boat will reciprocate.

After many decades running big diesel fleets, my take away is ignore the basics and sooner or later problems arise. At some point you will sell the vessel. Then a prospective buyer will ask about maintenance. Not following the book will cost you much more than saving a few tens of dollars or sweat at this point.

Have my John Deere serviced annually which includes change of oil, oil filter, fuel filters, engine zincs, and so on. (Averaging 125 engine-hours a year.)



Welcome big brother Seahorse.

Scary said:

. I had an old Detroit powered International dump truck that was used for dump runs and hauling dirt and road base around. It leaked so much oil I figured I effectively changed it once every 6 months, so I occasional changed the filters. Ran that old truck for 15 years, it always started and always got the job done. Far as I know it still has the original oil in it.

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I think you know it didn't have the original oil in it. As you said, you effectively changed in every six months. And you did change the filters.

BandB said:

I had a friend who never changed the oil in his car. Not seldom, but never. He based that decision after supposedly serving on a submarine where they never changed oil.

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Must've been a Sonar Tech...

Northern Spy said:

Must've been a Sonar Tech...

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Or the galley where they never change the deep fryer oil either...or maybe that's what he meant...

After serving aboard several ships...I loved it when one executive officer at chow would announce "to rough to use the deep fryer today...no fries or whatever"...the next boat was..."too rough to follow the scheduled menu...the cooks have changed to deep fried chicken and fries tonight".

Much like TF issues...different capabilities and methods for different capts/crews.....

Used to love mid-rats after watch when the fries tasted like the fish from dinner.

Twidget said:

Used to love mid-rats after watch when the fries tasted like the fish from dinner.

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That's like the fish camps in NC and SC. Always fried. Fried fish, fried hushpuppies, fried fries. Oh and some have added fried chicken. Just one thing. Doesn't matter which it is, it's going to taste like fish. If one hasn't ever tried to eat chicken that tasted like fish, you've been fortunate. Basic rule: If you go to a fish camp, plan on eating fish.

azubair said:

I know the conventional wisdom is that we are to change the oil, oil filters, fuel filters and air filters every year,....So why the need to change all the components yearly when the boat is not heavily used?

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Our oil and filter changes are based solely on hours. We use the boat year round, and if more than about a month goes by without our taking the boat out, we will run it in the slip.

NOTE: Idling the engine for a half hour or so is probably worse than not running it at all. The engine needs to get up to temperature and then held there for awhile. We run the engines separately, not together. We start the engine, let it warm up for a few minutes, then put it in gear and run it up to 1200-1400 rpm. Once the coolant temp is at the normal mark, we run the engine another 20 minutes. We used to run them together, one in forward and one in reverse to minimize the strain on the docklines. But when I mentioned this practice to the proprietor of one of the better marine gear shops in the area, he said not to do that because a BW Velvet Drive is not a very strong transmission in reverse. So we do the engines one at a time.

The FL120 manual calls for a 200 hour engine/filter change interval. We change them between 100 and 150 hours. I've never had a mechanic--- auto, aviation, or marine--- tell me that fresh oil is bad for an engine. And compared to all the other costs associated with boating, lube oil is free.

If an engine (any engine) is going to be laid up for a period of time--- several months or more-- then it's a good idea to change the oil prior to the layup, rather than leave dirty oil in it.

But on the advice of the people we know in the marine propulsion and generator diesel manufacturing industry, our intervals are based on engine hours only. Between my work schedule and the weather we don't get to take the boat out the boat as much as we'd like to. So it may be a year and a half or more between oil and filter changes. But the engines do get run one way or the other on a year round basis.

Marin said:

We run the engines separately, not together. We start the engine, let it warm up for a few minutes, then put it in gear and run it up to 1200-1400 rpm. Once the coolant temp is at the normal mark, we run the engine another 20 minutes.

Between my work schedule and the weather we don't get to take the boat out the boat as much as we'd like to. So it may be a year and a half or more between oil and filter changes. But the engines do get run one way or the other on a year round basis.

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If you have time to run them like this, why not take the boat out for a few minutes on that day instead? Even if just an hour?

I guess we got use to lake boating and boating after work and even if it was just an hour, we'd get out on the water. We see others who say it's too much work if not for the day. Not criticizing but both of us just trying to understand.

BandB said:

If you have time to run them like this, why not take the boat out for a few minutes on that day instead? Even if just an hour?

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Because the weather up here, particularly during the winter, is not always conducive to going out. Some people might get a kick out of being bashed around in Bellingham Bay in 30 knots winds and steep, closely-spaced 4 foot waves, but we aren't unless we absolutely have to.

And if we only have a few hours to spend up in Bellingham on a weekend day (we live 100 miles away and often these days can only spare one day to go up to the boat), the time it takes to deal with the ground-power cable, lines, window covers, etc., and then deal with them again an hour or so later plus hose the boat down, is not worth the effort. Easier and faster to simply run the engines in the slip while I write or we read or whatever.

But I agree, taking the boat out would be ideal if for no other reason than it cleans the slime off the bottom and spins the baby barnacles off the props.

psneeld said:

Or the galley where they never change the deep fryer oil either...or maybe that's what he meant...

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And from my experience they never really change out the coffee either. They add new coffee to the old coffee, but never really start fresh. Or at least they didn't on that troop ship I was on anyway, heading for the Frozen Chosin a long, long time ago.

jwnall said:

And from my experience they never really change out the coffee either. They add new coffee to the old coffee, but never really start fresh. Or at least they didn't on that troop ship I was on anyway, heading for the Frozen Chosin a long, long time ago.

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WOW!!!! You musta only been 6 when you signed up...

Maybe you knew my uncle...yeah I know I get the same all the time...you must know Bob...he was in the USCG too back in 1989.

Anyway my uncle was a pioneer USMC helo guy over there...pretty well known in the USMC. Capt. Gus Luddeke

Gustave F. Lueddeke, Jr., Captain, United States Marine Corps

Capt.Bill: i have thought about doing oil analysis as you suggest. Who do use for this? As for running the boat at the dock during winter months, I have run it at the dock but I usually take the boat out on the lake (my doc is on Lake Washington) and run it hard (like 2200 rpm, normally I cruise at 1600 to 1800 rpm) for 1/2 hour or so until the operating temps are reached. I have wondered though if running the boat in gear at the doc is bad for the transmission (mine is ZF).

azubair said:

I have wondered though if running the boat in gear at the doc is bad for the transmission (mine is ZF).

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Neither the engine nor the marine gear know if they are at the dock or in open water. However, it's not enough just to idle or high idle at the dock if you're going to do that. The engine needs a load on it to get up to normal operating temperature. We've found that with our engines and props, 1300-1400 rpm is about the minimum that will get the engine into the right temperature range, at least judging by the coolant gauge.

The only warning we were given regarding running our our own boat in gear at the dock is not to run at higher rpm in reverse, as the BW Velvet drive is not a very strong transmission in reverse. I don't know about ZF transmissions. Running in reverse on one engine let us run both engines at the same time without over-straining the mooring lines. So we don't do that anymore and instead run one at a time.

All in all, though, it's going to be better if you can actually take the boat out, and since you're on Lake Washington I suspect you can easily do that whenever you want as the lake never gets very rough except in the most severe storms.

While an oil analysis can be helpful, a one-time analysis isn't much of a benefit other than to show you the state of the oil at that particular moment. Oil analyses are used to determine trends. They are used a lot in aviation, particularly as an engine is approaching TBO. A regular oil analysis can show if there is an increase in metal particles in the oil and other such things. For example, there are programs by which an aviation engine can be run longer than its stated TBO if oil analyses are done at a specified interval and the oil is found to be within specific parameters. When it exceeds these parameters, the engine must be overhauled.

I'm not sure how beneficial an oil analysis program would be with a recreational boat that doesn't rack up a lot of hours every years unless it's a pretty high-time engine and the operator wants to monitor its health. Otherwise, unless the engine was always being run hard or abused or the servicing was spotty, the operator would simply keep getting the same results over and over. And the chances are that an operator who felt an oil analysis on a regular basis is important wouldn't be the kind of operator to abuse his/her engine(s) anyway.

azubair said:

Capt.Bill: i have thought about doing oil analysis as you suggest. Who do use for this? .

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Your engine manufacturer may offer the service or try:

Marine

Who ever you use you need to make sure they do a TBN test along with the rest of the tests.

I have wondered though if running the boat in gear at the doc is bad for the transmission (mine is ZF).

Running in gear at the dock may not harm the engine or tranny , but it may well get you thrown out of the marina.

Scouring , creating a channel with a prop is old hat , the marina may get VERY upset if your prop wash reduces the draft in nearby waters.

This is really easy to do, even at idle ,

"Idling at 1400rpm" isn't a load Marin .. It's a high idle. I think it would be 5 times as good to go for a run as suggested and I suspect/think your description of the weather is grossly exaggerated. Buck up like Tom White would say. Seriously I've done the same in Alaska in your defense.

I thought oil changing had a lot to do w carbon buildup. Much much less so w gas engines. They say that's why the lube oil in a diesel gets so black so fast. And the theory is based on carbon being an abrasive. Would'nt put aluminum oxide in my oil .. or sand. Is that the real deal or bunk?

Also I have read on occasion that oil sitting in a crankcase w a bit of moisture promotes chemical breakdown of the oil. Is that bunk too.

I suspect a lot of automotive recent changes are being arbitrarily transferred over to marine diesels. Tom White is right that doing what the manufacturers say is almost always right. And if we're not inclined to do it now later on we'll almost all be glad we did.

manyboats said:

"Idling at 1400rpm" isn't a load Marin .. It's a high idle...I suspect/think your description of the weather is grossly exaggerated. Buck up like Tom White would say.

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Well, you obviously have no clue what the weather and water conditions can be like in Bellingham Bay, particularly during the winter. We've been boating there for more than 16 years now, and we do. Winters are actually getting windier. This is not just our observation but that of other boaters we know who keep their boats in Bellingham and try to boat year round.

You also have no clue what my work and travel schedule is like and how they match up to the weather. We don't have the luxury of going boating whenever we want. So we do what's necessary to keep the boat from just sitting with no use at all for weeks at a time.

Given that the cruising rpm typically used with these engines is 1500-1800 rpm, I would say that 1400 rpm in gear is a "load." 1000 rpm is considered "high idle" for the FL120. Idle rpm is, or should be, 600 rpm.

The engines do not come up to temperature at anything less than 1300-1400 rpm. At 600 rpm the coolant temps get perhaps half way to normal and go no higher, normal being 180-190 degrees).

Since the engines get to normal operating temperature by the coolant gauges at 1400 rpm, and the EGT gauges also get to their normal cruise setting, the same settings they get to at at our typical cruise rpm of 1650 rpm/8 knots, I would say that 1400 rpm is not any sort of "idle" setting.

It might be for a modern, high-speed diesel. But for a 1950s thumper like the Ford Dorset (FL120) 1400 with the load of the prop is definitely not any sort of "idle."

But you can call it whatever you want. You can call it "stopped" if you want to. It makes no difference to me or the engines what term you want to stick on that particular rpm. The point is that the load on the engines at that rpm is sufficient to get the engine temps and EGT readings up into their normal operating range, and that's all that matters.

I mentioned earlier than on boats we never reach time before hours, but we do have the problem on cars. We only put about 4000 miles a year on our cars. We change the oil and filter yearly.

Astral Blue said:

I replace filters often, but not the oil. I send the oil for an analysis; and if problems do not show up in it, I do not change it. I have over 300 hours on the current oil change. Two oil analyses into it, not a single issue. Here is some good reading:

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Seems to me it would be cheaper to change oil than do two analysis in 300 hours.

I had an engine rep suggest it is better to base oil changes on fuel consumption rather than hours. Run the engines harder and a lot, use more fuel therefore change oil more often. Run easy and rarely, not so much fuel and longer oil change interval. The acid, I've been told, is an issue for engines laid up for extended periods.