What can Yanks learn from the Dutch?

manyboats said:

Fuel is cheap in the USA.

Don't need no FD.

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Eric

Michigan City Indiana's municipal marina has empty slips, for decades there was a waiting list. Again and again I have friends who got rid of their planing power boats in part because the boat cost too much to operate. No visible reduction in sail boats.

Its a 34 nm trip to Chicago, thus 68 nm roundtrip. Friend with a 34 ft SeaRay spent over $400 in gasoline. Bay Pelican making the same trip would spend $85 if I bought the diesel from the marina. The SeaRay owner no longer has his boat in the water.

Bay Pelican said:

Eric

Michigan City Indiana's municipal marina has empty slips, for decades there was a waiting list. Again and again I have friends who got rid of their planing power boats in part because the boat cost too much to operate. No visible reduction in sail boats.

Its a 34 nm trip to Chicago, thus 68 nm roundtrip. Friend with a 34 ft SeaRay spent over $400 in gasoline. Bay Pelican making the same trip would spend $85 if I bought the diesel from the marina. The SeaRay owner no longer has his boat in the water.

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I would think there would be enough folks who would rather not burn their money - even if they had enough of it they could if we wanted to!

Animal said:

I do love those SHM Ducks - there are several Blogs that chronicle SHM Duck owners' return trip in their new Duck:
Shearwater
DavidEllis

...but I think that $100k has more to do with Uncle Sam gettin his share when a new unused boat lands on the dock rather than the pure shipping costs. No?

Not sure how this would be different for a used boat.

Anyone buy a used boat somewhere else and bring it back in? Same tax issues as importing a new boat?

Anyone ever have their boat shipped over an ocean on one of those services? Any idea on rough cost?

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I looked up the cost to import a boat into the US and the cost was so low I didn't believe what I read. The duty rate is 1.5% of the boat value, https://help.cbp.gov/app/answers/detail/a_id/1184/~/importing-a-boat-for-personal-use-into-the-u.s.. That is the US import fee and a state may hit you up for more money. You will have to pay that import fee irregardless of when you import the boat but if one was in Asia for a few years you would have a used boat vs new which should lower the tax value. Course, then one gets to argue with the Tax Man over the value of the boat.

I think the shipping companies know they have you by the short hair when shipping a boat so they charge accordingly. The last cost I saw to ship a 40 foot container from China to the US west cost was about $2,000. So if I wanted to ship a 50+ foot boat the boat cradle would take up the space of 6 containers which would cost $12,000. The cradle will cost something and I am sure there are other paperwork costs but it should not cost that much to ship a boat, yet it does.

The companies that only transport yachts really have the market cornered. I saw some report recently that two of the shipping companies have merged which further reduces price competition.

I have read those two blogs and they are quite good.

We went to TrawlerFest in WA in May and had an awesome trip. Well beyond our expectations. The Shearwater was at the show so we met the owner, designer, builder, and people buying/building Ducks. We were invited to help sail the Shearwater from the show to its home marina which was very nice to say the least.

Later,
Dan

Irish Rambler said:

Just a few observations.
The reason the Dutch favour steel boats is that their canals freeze over in the winter and that can crush a fibreglass boat.
Many are lifted out and kept in heated boat sheds ashore over winter.
Linssen is a fine boat but one of the more expensive models.
The Dutch boat builders are very helpful and will certainly wire the boat to US standards if required.

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Good add! Thanks! Hadn't thought about freezing water as a reason to go steel.

Are there any North American dealers of Dutch boats? Just curious.

dannc said:

I looked up the cost to import a boat into the US and the cost was so low I didn't believe what I read. The duty rate is 1.5% of the boat value, https://help.cbp.gov/app/answers/detail/a_id/1184/~/importing-a-boat-for-personal-use-into-the-u.s.. That is the US import fee and a state may hit you up for more money. You will have to pay that import fee irregardless of when you import the boat but if one was in Asia for a few years you would have a used boat vs new which should lower the tax value. Course, then one gets to argue with the Tax Man over the value of the boat.

I think the shipping companies know they have you by the short hair when shipping a boat so they charge accordingly. The last cost I saw to ship a 40 foot container from China to the US west cost was about $2,000. So if I wanted to ship a 50+ foot boat the boat cradle would take up the space of 6 containers which would cost $12,000. The cradle will cost something and I am sure there are other paperwork costs but it should not cost that much to ship a boat, yet it does.

The companies that only transport yachts really have the market cornered. I saw some report recently that two of the shipping companies have merged which further reduces price competition.

I have read those two blogs and they are quite good.

We went to TrawlerFest in WA in May and had an awesome trip. Well beyond our expectations. The Shearwater was at the show so we met the owner, designer, builder, and people buying/building Ducks. We were invited to help sail the Shearwater from the show to its home marina which was very nice to say the least.

Later,
Dan

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when ii sold my trawler it went to AUS.from fort laudadale and the cost was 28000 $ plus insurance another 3000$

Animal said:

Good add! Thanks! Hadn't thought about freezing water as a reason to go steel.

Are there any North American dealers of Dutch boats? Just curious.

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In fact its NOT, many many GRP boats stay in the water during the winter and don't freeze apart. We just like steel as a traditional building material for motor yachts. I estimates that over 80 percent of the sailing yachts in The Netherlands are build from GRP.

dannc said:

Burning of the foam is problematic since the foam is buried between the hull and finished walls. If the finished walls have burned enough to expose the foam,...............

edited for brevity........

d be to have layers of the stuff. With a spray closed foam it is much easier to cover up everything. Keeping air away from the hull to prevent condensation is the goal.

Later,
Dan

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He did say urethane foam....

Not all the foam would probably be covers by walls and there are probably many channels for gasses to travel through. The same exposed foam probably in bilge areas may subjected to a fuel fed fire.

Eventually a small spot where even properly applied rust preventative would fail and covered with a less than easy removable foam begs maintenance a little too late sometimes.

Again...not my writings just my interpretation of them.

My cut is I have been on MANY steel vessels with poorly applied foam even over a good paint job and it's not a pretty sight down the road.

I also ripped out pretty good steel fuel tanks because they were covered in foam and where moisture got underneath...the rust looked scary enough to me to cut them out and replace them.

The thought of a boat being maybe days away from a large number of pinhole leaks is why I posted my thoughts on a completely removable interior. Till that happens I'm good with glass.

psneeld said:

He did say urethane foam....

Not all the foam would probably be covers by walls and there are probably many channels for gasses to travel through. The same exposed foam probably in bilge areas may subjected to a fuel fed fire.

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Yes he did, but I think many see foam, and think all foam is the same.

I find it very unlikely that a fuel fire will not kill me before the foam catches fire, if the foam can catch fire. The author has set up the problem such that foam is going to kill/hurt you if you use foam that will not burn or it will kill/hurt you if the foam catches fire. His either or situation is wrong.

Given all of the other flammable stuff that would be exposed to the flames from burning fuel in the bilge, a bit of foam is not that big of a deal. Assuming the foam actually is flammable in the first place.

How well would the FRP boat handle a fuel fire in the bilge? Would the burning FRP be better for me than the burning foam?

psneeld said:

Eventually a small spot where even properly applied rust preventative would fail and covered with a less than easy removable foam begs maintenance a little too late sometimes.

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Why would several layers of epoxy paint allow a small spot of rust to develop? The foam protects the paint from physical damage so if the paint is applied correctly why would there ever be rust?

The flip side of the question, what does one do to prevent a steel hull from rusting? What other product will work? The best I have seen is to epoxy paint the hull and apply foam insulation. If there is a better technique I would love to know about it.

psneeld said:

My cut is I have been on MANY steel vessels with poorly applied foam even over a good paint job and it's not a pretty sight down the road.

I also ripped out pretty good steel fuel tanks because they were covered in foam and where moisture got underneath...the rust looked scary enough to me to cut them out and replace them.

The thought of a boat being maybe days away from a large number of pinhole leaks is why I posted my thoughts on a completely removable interior. Till that happens I'm good with glass.

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Where the hulls and tanks using closed cell foam over epoxy paint? Just putting foam over the steel is likely to be problematic.

How many metal boats, using epoxy paints and closed cell foam, have developed pin hole leaks from rust? Are Dutch steel boats sinking and clogging up their ports and water ways as we speak?

How many FRP boats have problems with blisters, soaked cores, failing structure/keels, leaky decks, delamination, etc.?

Using aluminum would be danged interesting since one would not have to worry about rust or paint, but the material has its issues as well.

Later,
Dan

OK....you missed some of the points and now have created your own...

just deleted a longer post because I posted what a highly respected author wrote as a caution to metal boat purchasers/owners....not to debate what material is better....beat it up at will...

Just to add more grist to the mill.
My brother has built 2 steel boats and uses this method.
A new steel hull is allowed to scale, shot blasted and after thorough rapid cleaning is painted with 2 pack epoxy paint. Expanded polyurethane foam is then sprayed over all the interior down to the internal waterline. The expanded polyurethane foam used in boat building is certified fireproof.
The vessel is covered in a well ventilated place and the foam is allowed to gas for 3 weeks before trimming back the foam and commencing fit out.
We share skills in the fit out with other people, I do engineering, another friend does cabinet making, etc. etc.
No problems with rust on either boat and excellent insulation for noise/heat/condensation.

I have annual rust maintenance done to keep ahead of rusting issues. One spot due here:



It cost about $27,000 (plus insurance) to ship my 36-foot boat from China to California. It required two different ships:

Irish Rambler said:

Expanded polyurethane foam is then sprayed over all the interior down to the internal waterline...
No problems with rust on either boat and excellent insulation for noise/heat/condensation.

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Um, since most of the need for rust, noise, and (depending on season) thermal insulation is BELOW the waterline, I'm not seeing the "proof of concept".

refugio said:

Um, since most of the need for rust, noise, and (depending on season) thermal insulation is BELOW the waterline, I'm not seeing the "proof of concept".

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Every body who know just a little about insulating a steel casco knows that you never ever insulate such a casco under the "wind-water line"

Reiziger said:

Every body who know just a little about insulating a steel casco knows that you never ever insulate such a casco under the "wind-water line"

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No kidding. But my point is that if you don't, then you're admitting that insulating does not work in (typically) unheated spaces with low air circulation and cool temperatures conducive to condensation. Heck, my old steel Romsdal had something like fiberglass between the interior panelling and the topsides, with no failure observed in 30 years. Preventing interior corrosion above the waterline is a rather low bar.

refugio said:

No kidding. But my point is that if you don't, then you're admitting that insulating does not work in (typically) unheated spaces with low air circulation and cool temperatures conducive to condensation. Heck, my old steel Romsdal had something like fiberglass between the interior panelling and the topsides, with no failure observed in 30 years. Preventing interior corrosion above the waterline is a rather low bar.

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I can only say GOOGLE is your best friend.............

(Look at the photo in Post #18 Mark's Casco)

And what to do the day that research shows that foam insulation off gasses carcinogens.

hmason said:

And what to do the day that research shows that foam insulation off gasses carcinogens.

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Move to the engine room?

123 said:

Same counts for the dutch, thats why we love our "Steel" boats and less like the "Plastic" US ones.

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been to Holland many times to view
there are very few cockpit boats, very few class B and even less class A
most are used in what they term Sweet Water and some i climbed through have only primer in places that should be fully protected.
most have no inside helm, which is nutty
most have old engines but some do have 6bt Cummins, Deere or Vetus Deutz
i was a boat builder in metal all my life
the market there now is really strong, they do not shift on price

The Dutch love steel boats with no inside helm, many also have no shower or hot water with only a couple of rings for the cooker.
Firstly many of the Dutch canals can freeze so solid they are turned into ice skating courses during the winter and small cars can even drive in them. Secondly they are used predominantly as weekend cruisers, hopping from place to place as Holland is not so large.
Thirdly the Dutch store most of their boats ashore in heated sheds/garages.
Fourth, the Dutch are not interested in 'one up man ship' or posing with the latest gadgets why ? they make everything work as long as possible which is why you will see many DAF engines in boats, these DAF 575's were originally built by British Leyland and their original design dates back to the early '50's and they take great pride in keeping them in prime condition.
If you are interested in cruising in Holland (and Europe) then I suggest you buy my book 'Windmills & Wine' by Geoff Woolley on Amazon, its a bit expensive but that's because of all the photos pushing up the printing price.

123 said:

Already happens in The Netherlands.

Link: No Limit Ships

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I have friends that own a No Limits vessel ( No Limits 1750 Sea Wolf, covered on their website) and I can assure you that there is no way it could have the top removed to access anything below.

Animal said:

So what gives? What do the Dutch know that we Yanks don't?

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Nothing. The one big thing the Dutch builders of smaller boats are missing is marketing and selling. That's what they don't know. Go to Fort Lauderdale and you'll find the waters full of European and Chinese builders' offices. Trawler types mostly from China, Grand Banks from Malaysia with an operation in Stuart FL, planing and semi-displacement from Italy and the UK with a few from France.

If a builder doesn't have a US presence, then not likely to sell a lot in the US.

Linssen has one representative in the US, located in Seattle. They do say they just now have demo boats there. Contact through an aol email address. Definitely not someone to promote the line. You want to do business in a country or part of the world, then set up your business there. Seattle might reach 5% of the US boating public.

All this and Linssen is better known and has greater presence than the others listed except Vripack. Many Vripack designed boats in the US.

And to add, the center of US boating is Fort Lauderdale. Feadship has an office here. Heesen has an office here. So Dutch yacht builders know. Nearly every major builder does. All the competing brands do. One final statement. Did Linssen and the others show at FLIBS? Miami Boat Show? Palm Beach? Trawlerfest?

We bought a boat in 2021 that is rarely seen in the US for the same reasons as Linssen and it's at the opposite end of the speed spectrum. There are a lot of Italian high speed boats not known in the US. We only know the boats that originated in Thunder Alley.