Perkins 4-236 died - Pump?

I believe that the 4-236M can be used as a replacement for the 4-154M. The reason I say this is my boat a 1976 Gulfstar came with either engine. Borg 71C's will bolt to either engine as well. I spoke to TAD once I found out my vessel was incorrectly advertised (the surveyor caught it) and they told me they can get most parts needed for the 4-154M.
Bill

Thanks Billy!!! Just back from a three day outing. Didn't notice any response to my email from TAD as of this posting
Al

Bilgewater said:

bayview - Yup, certain. The manual shows nothing relating to another filter in the pump. My diesel specialist also confirmed this. His shop was looking for a rebuilt unit someone had on the shelf. Found one. In England. They are taking my pump to a local shop they use for overhauls. Should have it back in two days. I'm going to replace both lift pumps as well. I'll trust that the other pump will hold up for another year or so. The boat account has been taking a beating this month.

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Did the lift pumps solve your problems? I'm wondering there is another thread where some members are using inexpensive pumps available at NAPA, it seems like these could work in our boats.
Bill

Here are some 4.236 dimensions:

If you can't read this one, PM me with your email and I'll send you a clearer pdf that doesn't seem to load here.

Whoops, sorry for the font size- Al

Al said:

Thanks FlyWright- the measurements are exact for the two models. Not wanting thread drift I intend to start a new thread discussion and asking for opinion on making such a engine change.
Regards to all for an interesting thread here.

Al

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Thanks! I was wondering why you were yelling at me.

When removing the pump for repair make 2 fine indelible marks, 1 on the block and 1 on the pump, when you come to refit it'll save bother retiming. It looks a bit fiddly but just take it step at a time, if there's any Massey Ferguson or JCB dealers near you ask who refurbs their pumps as it'll be cheaper than a 'Marine' agency.
Ask also for a new gasket to fit between engine Block & Pump.
Unless you have an electric fuel pump you will know by now what a pain (in the finger) it is bleeding the system, especially on a hot engine.
There's a simple mod that changes the filter from a split canister to a 'spin on' type with a large push button on top which makes changing filters/bleeding child's play, it costs around £55.00 (per engine) from ASAP Supplies in the UK.
If you require details/part no's etc. contact me and I'll send them on to you.

A further bit of info that you Perkins users may find useful.
The company that manufactures the parts for Perkins to assemble also sells parts and overhaul kits etc at a much reduced cost.
Contact them at parts4engines.com and enquire as they may still have the blueprints to make parts for older Perkins engines..
I hope this will be helpful to you.

Great link, IR. Thanks.

Here's another if that one fails to produce.

http://www.perkinspartsdirect.com/

IrishRambler-

Quote:Unless you have an electric fuel pump you will know by now what a pain (in the finger) it is bleeding the system, especially on a hot engine.

Interesting to hear this. Our boat came with a electric fuel pump in line installed very close to the Racor fuel filter location. I had thought it as an emergency fuel pump rather than a tool to bleed the engine and most likely it is a back up fuel supply mode.
Could you give a bit of of happens in the use of the electric pump in relationship to the bleeding process? I vision it as opening a bleeding valve (which one?) on the macanical pump and force the fuel through pushing any air, or cracking the injectors and release the air if any.
would be well to know the process. In addition to the known fear of bleeding after the main filter change and your offering a source to equipment that will eleminate the fear, please do provide the item source or web site to explore.
Thanks
Al Ketchikan (Bridge to Nowhere) Alaska

The boost pump functions like the lift pump for bleeding. If you have Racor primary filter(s), it'll also allow you to bleed them.

Mine is mounted before the Racors, so it pushes fuel through them to bleed. Then the boost pump will push the fuel through the lift pump and into the engine mounted secondary filter, allowing you to bleed this one. Then it pushes the fuel into the fuel pump/governor and you can bleed these units. From this point, the high pressure fuel pump does the work of pushing fuel through the injectors.

FlyWright- Then I am to understand the electric pump is eliminating the need to hand pump, freeing you to bleed as constant pressure is being applied by the electric pump. Right?
Often I need instructions in "See Dick run, Run Dick run" format.
Al

Reference Perkins engines.
Many installations have been 'modified' by previous owners.
The standard system is mechanical and is perfectly suitable for it's task, the standard CAV type canister filter is not the easiest to bleed. I've modified many to the 'spin on' type with a push button primer.
With a little practice it's possible to change the fuel filter without bleeding the engine at all.
The modification parts cost approx. £ 55.00 plus shipping but their use is priceless, if any one needs part no's and supplier send me a message as I don't wish to break any rules posting them on here.
Don't forget if using the standard mechanical lift pump when changing fuel filters to clean out the gauge strainer in the pump.
Electric pumps and Raccor filters aren't really necessary if you maintain your system correctly, basically they are boy's toy but if that floats your boat go for it.

Al said:

FlyWright- Then I am to understand the electric pump is eliminating the need to hand pump, freeing you to bleed as constant pressure is being applied by the electric pump. Right?
Often I need instructions in "See Dick run, Run Dick run" format.
Al

Click to expand...

Yes, with the electric boost pump, there's no need to operate the manual lever on the lift pump to prime the engine mounted filter.

Irish Rambler said:

Reference Perkins engines.
Many installations have been 'modified' by previous owners.
The standard system is mechanical and is perfectly suitable for it's task, the standard CAV type canister filter is not the easiest to bleed. I've modified many to the 'spin on' type with a push button primer.
With a little practice it's possible to change the fuel filter without bleeding the engine at all.
The modification parts cost approx. £ 55.00 plus shipping but their use is priceless, if any one needs part no's and supplier send me a message as I don't wish to break any rules posting them on here.
Don't forget if using the standard mechanical lift pump when changing fuel filters to clean out the gauge strainer in the pump.
Electric pumps and Raccor filters aren't really necessary if you maintain your system correctly, basically they are boy's toy but if that floats your boat go for it.

Click to expand...

Feel free to post the info here, Irish Rambler. You won't be violating any rules. We do it all the time and the community rules allow it.

Since my boat was purchased with the dual Racor filters and electric boost pump, I won't be removing them. In fact, the boost pumps were installed, but not connected electrically. For years I didn't know what they were. Then I posted pics here on TF and got the answer.

I used them to prime my filters and bleed my system a couple of months ago and found them to be very helpful. At the time I just used a portable 12V power pack to drive the pumps. I plan to connect them electrically through a 3-position momentary on-off-on switch so they're available for maintenance and also available as a backup if the mechanical lift pump fails.

Perkins engine's mechanical fuel delivery modification.
Here are the details to convert the CAV sandwich type filter to the 'Spin On' type.

Supplier ASAP supplies.com (always get a customer number on initial order to receive a 10% discount).
Spin on conversion kit, Part number 302040 £37.24
Hand primer ' ' 302067 8.53
Banjo Bolt ' . 302059 6.75
Banjo Bolt washers x 2 ' ' 302992 0.60
Shipping extra..

To modify the system,
First start the engine and run up until warm and shut off.
Then disconnect the fuel pipes from the CAV filter head, unbolt the filter head assembly, using the same bolts replace with the 'spin on' conversion.
Using the new longer Banjo bolt and washers, fit the fuel feed pipe to the 'new' Spin On filter assembly.
Connect the other fuel lines and change over any blanking plugs from the old filter head.
Before fitting fuel filter fill with diesel oil right up to the brim and 'spin on' carefully.
Start the engine on tickover and vigorously pump the new hand pump with the heel of your hand until the engine runs smoothly.
You may possibly have to bleed the engine for the first time but after that it's child play and done in half the time with no mess and spilled fuel.
Replacement filters can be bought locally and I would advice carrying a spare and noting the filter part number in your ships service log.
I hope this is helpful.

Aaaaa I see! My engine has the spin on filter so what I would be buying is the same process except there would be a built in pump which as you describe, pump vigorously.
Is this process then forcing any air between the filter and injector pump enough to not have to bleed either the pump or injectors? Amazing if the case, one would wonder if you had filled the filter as described and bedded fully, how much air had been allowed into the fuel line that the engine would even out after starting without bleeding as normal.
Just asking as I do not change the engine provided filter, just the Racor filter every 100 hours. Did this for 13 years on our former boat which has a Hercules engine with a snap on square primary filter. This is the beginning of the third year with this craft in our ownership.
Al

Irish Rambler said:

Perkins engine's mechanical fuel delivery modification.
Here are the details to convert the CAV sandwich type filter to the 'Spin On' type.

Supplier ASAP supplies.com (always get a customer number on initial order to receive a 10% discount).
Spin on conversion kit, Part number 302040 £37.24
Hand primer ' ' 302067 8.53
Banjo Bolt ' . 302059 6.75
Banjo Bolt washers x 2 ' ' 302992 0.60
Shipping extra..

To modify the system,
First start the engine and run up until warm and shut off.
Then disconnect the fuel pipes from the CAV filter head, unbolt the filter head assembly, using the same bolts replace with the 'spin on' conversion.
Using the new longer Banjo bolt and washers, fit the fuel feed pipe to the 'new' Spin On filter assembly.
Connect the other fuel lines and change over any blanking plugs from the old filter head.
Before fitting fuel filter fill with diesel oil right up to the brim and 'spin on' carefully.
Start the engine on tickover and vigorously pump the new hand pump with the heel of your hand until the engine runs smoothly.
You may possibly have to bleed the engine for the first time but after that it's child play and done in half the time with no mess and spilled fuel.
Replacement filters can be bought locally and I would advice carrying a spare and noting the filter part number in your ships service log.
I hope this is helpful.

Click to expand...

Do you have any pictures of the new spin on filter installation?
Thanks,
Bill

The PO of my boat installed an electric pump between the engines to change the oil. Hoses from each sump connect to the pump, and then the pump hose goes into a bucket, or what ever. I pieced together some fittings that allow me to use that pump in line with the fuel tank supply to bleed the fuel system after filter changes and not use the lift pumps. In my troubleshooting of my problem, I tried to start the engine with the pump hooked up and running, taking the lift pump out of the equation. It did no good. It is a pain to change the fuel filters as they are canisters between two ends, with two seals that could leak. Thanks Irish Rambler for posting what sounds like a sure-fire fit.

Hopefully the rebuilt pump will be installed tomorrow. Man plans, God laughs.

If an engine already has an in line electric pump there is obviously no need to buy the manual pump, as has been previously posted it will push the fuel through the system.
I stick with the original mechanical system because I like to keep things simple and uncomplicated in case of a breakdown while offshore.
I only ever buy/use single engine boats so therefore I wish them to be 100% reliable.
I will certainly post some picture's of my own installation to illustrate the installation.
Please bear with me as it will be towards the end of the week due to work commitments.

Al, When changing the filter unless you attempt to turn the engine with the filter removed the fuel will stay in the line, it is very important that the new spin on filter is full to the brim when fitting.
When you start the engine on tickover(easy because it's warm) the fuel already in the system will run the engine, but immediately the engine starts pop down and pump the hand pump vigorously in case any tiny air bubbles get in during the changing process. This will be noticed if the engine runs uneven for a few seconds, after that has passed the engine is in fine condition to run.
With a little practice the will be no need to bleed the engine after changing the fuel filter.
Clean any drips or spills, wipe the area clean and check for leaks, put a good squirt of citrus scented washing up liquid into the bilge to take care of any fuel that has dripped into the bilge ( the detergent breaks down the molecular structure of the oil) and the citrus smell kills the diesel smell.
Other people may have different methods but time has shown this system to be cheap, practical and within any persons ability.
I hope this is helpful, please don't hesitate to ask if you have any questions.

Our perkins 4-108 blew up on the way to Mexico. It turned out to be the high pressure diesel pump. More than 4 mechanics looked at it between Newport Beach and La Paz and none figured it out till an ex-pat mechanic in Mexico said it didn't matter, I had to rebuild. Diesel was leaking through the drive gear into the pan. The thinking at the time (2006) was that removing the sulpher from the diesel caused the seals to dry out. I got about a quart of diesel added to the oil every 25 hours. Changing oil every 25 hours did nothing, the bearings all wore down.

Thanks Irish- The explanation you gave for my situation is very helpful and a confirmation to the thinking. Your response is what this forum is noted for. Thank you for the attention and detail you offered.
Al-Ketchikan (Bridge to Nowhere) Alaska

Hello Al,
If I can I will, If I can't I'll be the first to say so and not give a load bull, we all have to share our experience's for the betterment of our fellow sailors.
That's the essence of the brotherhood of the sea and it's a pleasure to help.

Apophyge.
I know it's too late to be of any use to you but if anyone else needs to rebuild a Perkins 4108, or any other engine always specify that the crank is for a turbocharged version of the engine.
The reason is that the cranks for turbo engines are cintrided (specially toughened to take the strain) that gives them an even longer life on a non turbo engine.
Likewise with shell bearings, make sure you are not given old stock that's been on the back of the shelf for a few years.
The reason being that the newer version of lead free shell bearings have a much longer life that the leaded type.
For Perkins rebuild kits at a very keen price the people who manufacture for Perkins sell these kits and spares, contact them at parts4engines.com
I hope this is helpful to everyone.

Irish- Amazing!! two helpful bits of information on the Perkins line. Your posting of the site Parts4engines.com is a wonder. It reflects the most comprehensive site of parts that has been viewed. As a result I am more comfortable with knowing of the site. Prices and shipping from the U.K. are not all that unbearable, actually have received articles as fast from U.K as from the east coast. Thanks once again.
Al

Hello Al,
Another site you and other Trawler Forum members may find helpful is
asapsupplies.com they have the usual range of chandlery but are also a source of marinising spares/replacement parts for various engines.
Shipping in this day and age is not a problem via DHL and others and particularly helpful for members who travel and unable get supplies locally.

Thanks Irish, Nothing listed at this site for the 4-154-Al

Hi Al,
I would suggest you drop asap an email as there are a lot of these engines used in narrow boats on the English canals and thy may point you in the right direction even if they don't have the parts themselves.
You could also try engnet.com and parts4engines.com.
I hope these can help.