Perkins 4-236 died - Pump?

While underway to Cleveland, the starboard engine quit. We were in 3 - 5 seas, (thanks, weather service) so I suspected a fuel problem as in a clogged filter. Limped into Lorain and spent three hours trying to get the engine started again. Went through the bleeding process repeatedly, looking for leaks. Nothing. Returned to Sandusky on the port engine. The final step in bleeding is to open the throttle full, crack two injector lines, and try to start it. When fuel gushes from the loose lines, tighten up, and she'll start on the next spin. Usually. Did get the engine to start, but when bringing the throttle back from wide open, it died. Then would not restart. I get good clear flow from the filters and bleeder ports, but nothing from the injectors. Has anyone ever had an injector pump go bad? Only 2400 hours on the engine, but 40 years old. Several of my dock neighbors have had a crack at it, and can't get it to run either.

If you have the CAV injection pump there is a screen (filter ) in the pump.Where the inlet line bolts onto pump.Just a thought.Have seen then foulded before.

Sorry to hear about the engine fuel problem Bilgewater. Hopefully you can getter going tomorrow.
Bill

I'm sure you've probably already done this.

But check the linkage between the "Kill Switch" solenoid and the fuel lever on the injector pump. If the lever on the pump is not all the way open (down). . . no fuel will be delivered to the injectors. Use your finger to hold the lever down and try to start it. If it pops back up. . . there is an issue there. I've seen them hang up before.

Some CAV pumps have an electric stop solenoid located down under body of pump. Not sure if the 236 has that. Worth a check.

My Perkins 4-154's have these electric stop solenoid however I'm not sure where it is located.
Bill

1. Did you bleed the fuel pump port? (See Page 12 of attached handbook)

2. Are you SURE those filters are clean? Do you have Racor primaries? Checked or replaced the secondary?

3. Rough seas and engine failure sounds like a fouled filter more than a failed fuel pump. I have to crack all 4 lines to bleed adequately. I start at the fwd line, then move aft.

4. Is your lift pump allowing your engine mounted filter to bleed?

Is there a transmission neutral switch?

Xsbank said:

Is there a transmission neutral switch?

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He can crank the engine over so it's not a neutral safety switch issue.
Bill

Depends if the neutral switch is connected to the fuel shutoff or the cranking system.

Xsbank said:

Depends if the neutral switch is connected to the fuel shutoff or the cranking system.

Click to expand...

My 36 MarkII has the neutral safety switches wired to the cranking circuit not the fuel shut down solenoid. I have the 4-154M's they are fairly close to the Perkins 4-236M's.
Bill

A little OT, but just called TransAtlantic Diesel and asked if they sell rebuild kits for the 4-236 lift pump; they don't. It's a bit of a PIA to get that pump off the engine and a new one back on. If you could buy the diaphragm, gasket, etc. it would be much easier to remove the diaphragm cover and replace it. Anybody know where these parts might be sold.?

The Perkins Parts and Engines Superstore

These folk have all kinds of parts, including lift pumps. Hope this helps

Many thanks for the suggestions.

A diesel mechanic came by and confirmed my thoughts that the injector pump itself is shot. (The pump's dead,Jim) (But Bones, there must be something you can do!) (The pump's dead, Jim)
Waiting now to find out about availability of overhauled units verses repair. Also going to replace both lift pumps at this time.

The one good thing is that we're not losing any time, as the weather is crap. Windy with thunderstorms for the rest of the week. We're not going to do 3-5 waves unless absolutely necessary.

Glad to see you figured it out. How hard is the R&R?

I think the new ULSD could be a factor since it wore out so fast.

FWIW, I was on a 41 (I think) Gulfstar in Puerta Vallarta, MX for a week. A nice boat.

Bilgewater said:

Many thanks for the suggestions.

A diesel mechanic came by and confirmed my thoughts that the injector pump itself is shot. (The pump's dead,Jim) (But Bones, there must be something you can do!) (The pump's dead, Jim)
Waiting now to find out about availability of overhauled units verses repair. Also going to replace both lift pumps at this time.

The one good thing is that we're not losing any time, as the weather is crap. Windy with thunderstorms for the rest of the week. We're not going to do 3-5 waves unless absolutely necessary.

Click to expand...

What caused the pump to fail Bilgewater? Was it age catching up or something else? This concerns me because soon I'll be making the trip to NJ with my 4-154M's and the last place I need engine trouble is in the Delaware Bay.
Thanks for any input you can provide.
Bill

Is that pump self lubricating or does it rely on the diesel? Now that the sulphur is gone, you might need to add a lubricant to your diesel at fill ups.


Just sayin.

Bilgewater said:

The Perkins Parts and Engines Superstore

These folk have all kinds of parts, including lift pumps. Hope this helps

Click to expand...

Thanks for the tip on Perkins supplier I have book marked this site for parts etc again great post

Don't know any details yet. Still waiting to hear back about an exchange.

They get their lube from the diesel. I had to replace my stbd pump due to leaking seals that the mechanic blamed on ULSD. Not sure if it's true or not. The port side is working fine. I bought a rebuilt one from the local Perkins truck shop. That plus the labor was around $1500. YMMV

Xsbank said:

Depends if the neutral switch is connected to the fuel shutoff or the cranking system.

Click to expand...

How would that work with a neutral switch on the fuel shutoff? Shift into neutral and the fuel shutoff kills the engine? I think the idea is to keep you from starting in anything but neutral. Can't figure out how it would work as you described.

My Perkins has the neutral switch on the starter. Never seen one with a neutral switch connected to a fuel shutoff solenoid.

The Simms pump on my Fords has oil in the bottom but the fuel actually lubricates the pistons that pump the diesel fuel. As time goes on I'm getting more diesel in the oil when I change it and I attribute that to ULSD. One engine is almost pure diesel after 50 hrs.

My GMC has gone through at least 10 IP's since they started removing sulphur but as far as red dye, they went straight to ULSD and skipped LSD which was the worse. With the ULSD the IP"s are lasting around three times longer than the LSD. This tells me we will see these old mechanical IP's fail in our boats as a result.

Local diesel pump shops can usually overhaul IPs. Pump shops are everywhere.
Are you absolutely certain there is not some other filter or screen somewhere??

The fuel shutoff is something I've seen but I can't think of how it would work either- latching relay?

I think the failure has to be logical and is likely a simple cause. A starter, fuel and air... Starter obviously works but is it spinning fast? Air filter/air intake plugged? Exhaust system collapsed? Fuel lever linkage slipped? An air leak in the fuel? Lift pump fail? Fuel shutoff fail? Plugged fuel filter? Are you putting unburned fuel in the water? There should be lots if you have a fuel supply and none if it's blocked.

Bilgewater- Thanks for the post regarding Perkins supplier. I looked at the site and became so alarmed as to send an email. There is NO INDICATION THEY HANDLE 4-154 parts! I have been hearing in the abstract that 4-154 parts are rare or non-existence in may applications. So- I asked if the 4-236 will fit the same foot print as the 4-154 with the thought of keeping an eye out for a rebuilt to replace the current 4-154.
That being said, if any on the forum have access to what the think is a reliable supplier of such to provide a address or contact for future requirements it will be much appreciated.
Al-Ketchikan (Bridge to Nowhere) Alaska

bayview - Yup, certain. The manual shows nothing relating to another filter in the pump. My diesel specialist also confirmed this. His shop was looking for a rebuilt unit someone had on the shelf. Found one. In England. They are taking my pump to a local shop they use for overhauls. Should have it back in two days. I'm going to replace both lift pumps as well. I'll trust that the other pump will hold up for another year or so. The boat account has been taking a beating this month.

Thanks for sharing the information. I need to talk to my diesel mechanic before I take my Gulfstar from Maryland to the New Jersey shore.
Bill

I recently have had an almost identical experience with my port-side 4.236, but just got a different diagnosis. Wasn't "at sea" at the time, but at the dock a couple of weeks ago doing a routine filter change...

While I've always changed the Racor filter at the tank, I have never had to change the CAV filter on the engine myself since I've owned Sandpiper. I changed both filters, ran the bleeding process. She started and ran for about 15 seconds and quit. Perplexed, I bled the engine again, with no luck. She would turn over fine, bleed fine, but not light off. After attempting to bleed it myself several more times, I called the pros.

Just talked to the mechanic and he said I'd installed the wrong O-ring at the top of the filter canister, which blocked the fuel when it came under pressure as the engine tried to fire. He swapped the O-ring, bled the engine and she fired right up. I guess while awkwardly leaning over and around the port side of the engine while installing the filter, I never noticed that it wasn't seating properly. While I feel like an idiot, he assured me he sees this a couple times a year when folks mess with a CAV for the first time.

I still feel like an idiot... but it's a lot cheaper than a new pump!

Cheers!

Al said:

Bilgewater- Thanks for the post regarding Perkins supplier. I looked at the site and became so alarmed as to send an email. There is NO INDICATION THEY HANDLE 4-154 parts! I have been hearing in the abstract that 4-154 parts are rare or non-existence in may applications. So- I asked if the 4-236 will fit the same foot print as the 4-154 with the thought of keeping an eye out for a rebuilt to replace the current 4-154.
That being said, if any on the forum have access to what the think is a reliable supplier of such to provide a address or contact for future requirements it will be much appreciated.
Al-Ketchikan (Bridge to Nowhere) Alaska

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Have you checked with Trans Atlantic Diesels? Also known as TAD? I have the same engines 4-154's.
Bill