Northern Spy
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The Generation Small Ocean Passagemaker
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The friendliest place on the web for anyone who enjoys boating.
If you have answers, please help by responding to the unanswered posts.
If you have answers, please help by responding to the unanswered posts.
N4 Running Out of Time
I should clarify that we love our N35 and it has served its mission of getting us back on the water. Remember this purchase was always meant to be a test boat to see if Mary was ready for boating again. The boat is 100% amazing between its quality, robustness, performance and great looks which Mary has become accustomed to and thus the reason I went with another Nordhavn. Our biggest problem over the past years of boat ownership has always been the lack of time to set out for weeks or months at a time but we are getting closer to reaching early retirement and I would like to make our next boat the one that can take us to Hawaii, Alaska, Panama and the east coast. We have no desire to go around the world and it will only be the two of us aboard 90% of the time so I need a smaller boat that can accomplish this mission. Stabilization and range are two key factors we need to consider thus we keep coming back to smaller FD boats.
The N40 (with our custom layout we almost built) is really the perfect boat for us followed possibly by the N47 (a little big for me) but the prices of new boats are killing us. To pay close to $800K for an N40 doesn't make financial sense and a N52 (N47 is out of production) is well over $1M. I'm a little guy playing in this game who prefers a new boat (so does the real captain) for the warranty and historically fewer issues to deal with once we push off. To matters a little more confusing recent changes at work are causing some ripples in our plans to start taking more time off (near term) before formal retirement and may result in us just keeping the N35 for a few more years. I should know about this within the next month or two in the mean time we have the boat listed.
Life rarely goes as planned and one of the few guarantees we all have is that time will run out sooner then we think, gotta make that last voyage soon!
John T.
N3522
La Tempestad
I should clarify that we love our N35 and it has served its mission of getting us back on the water. Remember this purchase was always meant to be a test boat to see if Mary was ready for boating again. The boat is 100% amazing between its quality, robustness, performance and great looks which Mary has become accustomed to and thus the reason I went with another Nordhavn. Our biggest problem over the past years of boat ownership has always been the lack of time to set out for weeks or months at a time but we are getting closer to reaching early retirement and I would like to make our next boat the one that can take us to Hawaii, Alaska, Panama and the east coast. We have no desire to go around the world and it will only be the two of us aboard 90% of the time so I need a smaller boat that can accomplish this mission. Stabilization and range are two key factors we need to consider thus we keep coming back to smaller FD boats.
The N40 (with our custom layout we almost built) is really the perfect boat for us followed possibly by the N47 (a little big for me) but the prices of new boats are killing us. To pay close to $800K for an N40 doesn't make financial sense and a N52 (N47 is out of production) is well over $1M. I'm a little guy playing in this game who prefers a new boat (so does the real captain) for the warranty and historically fewer issues to deal with once we push off. To matters a little more confusing recent changes at work are causing some ripples in our plans to start taking more time off (near term) before formal retirement and may result in us just keeping the N35 for a few more years. I should know about this within the next month or two in the mean time we have the boat listed.
Life rarely goes as planned and one of the few guarantees we all have is that time will run out sooner then we think, gotta make that last voyage soon!
John T.
N3522
La Tempestad
hollywood8118
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John,
This may seem to be a smart question ... and it is in no way meant to be that way.. but how much do you budget to loose every time you do one of these boat changes?
I go through a few boats, but I do it at the lower end of the financial scale.. and I do a decent job of getting my boats for a good value.. but switching boats rarely is even a close to break even deal. I do ALL my own boat work and I on rare occasion break even on the equipment/parts/supplies that I "invest" in a boat... never the labor.
I as obviously do you love Nordhavn boats.. but unless one is doing real blue water passages they rarely are a necessity.
HOLLYWOOD
Sir, recognizing that you never make money with boats, we have been fortunate with all our boats (even prior to Nordhavn's)not to take the "bath" that many incur. An example is when I purchased our 22' Mako Center Console a long time ago. I found a west coast dealer who could not give the boats away, bought the new boat below cost, kept it about 4 years and sold it for more then we paid. Fast forward to Nordhavn's and we sold N1 for what we paid for her 18 months earlier, didn't incur taxes, and paid a very small commission so that boat was close to a freebie. When we sold N2 we did incur a little depreciation but overall not bad and we had to sell due to health reasons. N3 was a fortunate find for us and now in near new condition. Even with all our investment in her she is reasonably priced, will serve her next owner well and we will not sell her if means loosing money. I will be the first to admit we are not the normal trawler buyer/seller and that is what allows to play in this expensive market. I learned a long time ago how best to navigate the cycle of boat ownership and while no expert have done OK. The limited investment we do not recoup I write-off as the cost for all the priceless memories boating has provided us. We also have the added requirement of needing a second home in SD which for us is a boat over another land based home. Without this need we likely would not have entered the trawler market in our early 40's and stayed with much smaller boats. In the end it comes down to finding a way to do what makes us enjoy life.
John T.
N3522
La Tempestad
I like the MS 56 for its functionality but as Hollywood pointed out, it is one ugly son of a gun.
I got the original pic from the Nordhavn site, then used the computer to adjust it a little bit. With a redrawn line here, some junk left off there, I think it is an acceptable looking boat. With that variable pitch prop and slow revving Lugger, this thing can go just about anywhere. Trouble is, when you get there you want to park it out back.
So I tried to fix it.
What do you think?
I got the original pic from the Nordhavn site, then used the computer to adjust it a little bit. With a redrawn line here, some junk left off there, I think it is an acceptable looking boat. With that variable pitch prop and slow revving Lugger, this thing can go just about anywhere. Trouble is, when you get there you want to park it out back.
So I tried to fix it.
What do you think?
I like the MS 56 for its functionality but as Hollywood pointed out, it is one ugly son of a gun.
I got the original pic from the Nordhavn site, then used the computer to adjust it a little bit. With a redrawn line here, some junk left off there, I think it is an acceptable looking boat. With that variable pitch prop and slow revving Lugger, this thing can go just about anywhere. Trouble is, when you get there you want to park it out back.
So I tried to fix it.
What do you think?
Well, I don't agree the MS 56 is not acceptable looking, but setting that aside a moment. You've made some pretty significant changes. I don't think any dinghies are ugly but I wouldn't want to have a boat that size without one. I also consider the safety railings a nice safety feature and not unattractive. Also, I'd like the radar arch even though I don't think electronics are attract anyway but not leaving them off for appearance and do value the arch. Are we ready to trade function for looks?
If so, I'd suggest:
Attachments
I didn't mean to offend any MS56 fans, as I personally love the boats.
The idea was to see if it could be made to look more traditional without costing any functionality. A dream exercise, for amusement purposes.
A porta-boat folding dinghy could lay flat on that roof, the big deck up there would be roomy enough to unfold it. I showed what I think might be the GPS gear on the deck there, the radar would be mounted on the main mast about 20 feet up in a way that wouldn't foul the jib when it's walked across, if at all possible.
I reviewed some drawings and pictures and you are right about the aft railings. Those bulwarks are only a bit over knee high,
so safety first- I'd leave the rails alone. The picture windows in the saloon seemed fragile for a passagemaker, so I redrew it with several smaller windows for strength.
I thought it looked more shippy.
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I didn't mean to offend any MS56 fans, as I personally love the boats.
The idea was to see if it could be made to look more traditional without costing any functionality. A dream exercise, for amusement purposes.
A porta-boat folding dinghy could lay flat on that roof, the big deck up there would be roomy enough to unfold it. I showed what I think might be the GPS gear on the deck there, the radar would be mounted on the main mast about 20 feet up in a way that wouldn't foul the jib when it's walked across, if at all possible.
I reviewed some drawings and pictures and you are right about the aft railings. Those bulwarks are only a bit over knee high,
The picture windows in the saloon seemed fragile for a passagemaker, so I redrew it with several smaller windows for strength.
I thought it looked more shippy.
Well, you're not taking my dinghy away....lol
Why would one give up a nice dinghy for a porta-boat. That's like trading a nice toilet for a porta-potti?
As to the windows, can't tell from a photo the strength or fragility.
You're right. It's a trade off on looks versus practicality. Personally, I don't think the boat looks bad. It just looks like a Nordhavn. Funny, when I see a Nordhavn, I really don't think of how it looks in comparison to other boats. Just know it's going to look like a Nordhavn.
But I'm not giving up the dinghy. lol
I didn't mean to offend any MS56 fans, as I personally love the boats.
The idea was to see if it could be made to look more traditional without costing any functionality. A dream exercise, for amusement purposes.
A porta-boat folding dinghy could lay flat on that roof, the big deck up there would be roomy enough to unfold it. I showed what I think might be the GPS gear on the deck there, the radar would be mounted on the main mast about 20 feet up in a way that wouldn't foul the jib when it's walked across, if at all possible.
I reviewed some drawings and pictures and you are right about the aft railings. Those bulwarks are only a bit over knee high,
The picture windows in the saloon seemed fragile for a passagemaker, so I redrew it with several smaller windows for strength.
I thought it looked more shippy.
And you didn't comment on the boat photo I threw in. Might not be practical as a passagemaker with a 100 mile range, but can get you to the next fuel stop fast and look good doing it.
bligh
Guru
It reminds me of my brother-in-law's bass boat when he's trying to get to the good spot first.
A dinghy, to me, is just a ship to shore conveyance so a porta-boat doesn't bother me, but then I'll never really be a Nordhavn customer, either.
They filled one with bricks and dropped it from 20 feet (?) high and it didn't break, that's a rugged boat.
The windows are often covered with plexiglass storm windows when they do a crossing, I read somewhere. A big, flat window will feel a lot more pressure from a crashing wave than a port light, say. As the area of unsupported glass between frames increases, the risk of a breakout also rises, I would think.
Nobody likes my N 56, so Bluto sad.
I like it.
The only way it would look cooler is with the hull painted burnt orange. Yeahhh,
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It reminds me of my brother-in-law's bass boat when he's trying to get to the good spot first.
We lived on a lake in NC covered with bass fishermen. Actually on the lake there were fishermen, average boat 17-18', speed 30-40 mph. Then there were bass fishermen, average boat 19-24', speed 50-70 mph. The only reason some went to longer boats was so they could put more motor on it. A lot of 250-300 hp outboards sold.
Just a few go-fast boats like the one in the photo and they were much smaller than it.
The start of bass tournaments, you'd think that there were only three or four spots on a 30 mile lake that actually had bass.
Oh, yes. My bro in law is a tournament chasing bass man, he has an old 19 or 20 footer but she's packin' a 250 hp Mercury and tops out at 70+ mph, he told me. Smooth ride, too.
Bring strap-on sunglasses, you'll need them.
Conrad
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I like the MS 56 for its functionality but as Hollywood pointed out, it is one ugly son of a gun.
I got the original pic from the Nordhavn site, then used the computer to adjust it a little bit. With a redrawn line here, some junk left off there, I think it is an acceptable looking boat. With that variable pitch prop and slow revving Lugger, this thing can go just about anywhere. Trouble is, when you get there you want to park it out back.
So I tried to fix it.
What do you think?
You've made it look like it's much smaller brother, the N35, which isn't a bad thing.
But the most important improvement by far was to give it side decks methinks.
Thanks, Conrad. If you study pictures of the boat at sea, viewed from the stern, the pilothouse width and squareness of it all make it unattractive from that angle. The instruments and dink up on the roof don't help at all.
The side decks would make tramping through the saloon to go aft unnecessary, but they would cost some interior volume.
The interior space lost is mostly taken up by a huge windowsill on the starboard side and the TV stand and straight settee (or two chairs) on the port side. No big deal to my mind. The curving bay windows aft of the side doors would be gone, and I wouldn't miss those either.
I bet they had this same discussion while they were designing it, and my side lost.
It's still a wonderful motor sailer.
Nobody has mentioned the clean line along the shear, which is just a paint change. I think the shear looks a lot nicer this way.
The side decks would make tramping through the saloon to go aft unnecessary, but they would cost some interior volume.
The interior space lost is mostly taken up by a huge windowsill on the starboard side and the TV stand and straight settee (or two chairs) on the port side. No big deal to my mind. The curving bay windows aft of the side doors would be gone, and I wouldn't miss those either.
I bet they had this same discussion while they were designing it, and my side lost.
It's still a wonderful motor sailer.
Nobody has mentioned the clean line along the shear, which is just a paint change. I think the shear looks a lot nicer this way.
magicbus
Senior Member
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I think Nordhavn painted it that way to accentuate the "Nordie butt" that is their standard.
Dave
A dinghy, to me, is just a ship to shore conveyance so a porta-boat doesn't bother me, but then I'll never really be a Nordhavn customer, either.
I'm allergic to orange. lol
It's amazing how we all use our boats differently and then see dinghies or tenders differently. We normally overnight at marinas but we probably use our ribs as much as anyone. At least those who know laugh at us. But we love to go explore those areas the boat won't go. Shallow, under low bridges. All around islands. We've had days that we were gone the entire day in the rib. Well, did have to refuel a couple of times. But places like Savannah with all the wildlife reserves and on up the rivers and the islands in the Bahamas and around Destin and Panama City.
That said, we would have to have a better way to get the dinghy into and out of the water. Would also probably want a little larger dinghy. But then we're not their targeted customer.
Nordies have their own look, they are unmistakable, even at a distance.
They wouldn't appreciate my tampering with the lines.
With the two-tone paint along the stern rail I could name the boat "Spats".
Before they started work on the new Coastal Pilots, the 56 was their fastest boat.
Exploring is definitely fun and rewarding, no doubt!
Bridges! Bad news, can't go under there..
You can't carry a heavy tender, the boom has limits, you can get by lifting 250 pounds or so. You're right about that, too.
She certainly wouldn't do for gunkholing and I doubt most TF members would ever look at such a boat.
The hull shape is all displacement forward with a broad flair, then sweeps to a flatter, tapered stern and has an added stern form (?) that rises to become the short swim platform. Below the waterline they are very beautiful. The 56 is a purely blue water vessel with a 7 foot draft. It's almost anti-social, the opposite of a fun coastal boat.
My idea for the boat is to head for the med. If I had the wherewithal to acquire the boat, I'd have it to take a cruise. I'd hire a captain and cruise the coasts until I felt confident and the boat shaken down, then drop him off, load her up and probably never come back. I've seen enough local dirt to suit me.
healhustler
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Bluto: When altering the looks of traditional boats as we know them here on TF, you'll always get a wide spectrum of opinion. Thank Heaven's we do, cuz if we didn't, all boats would be built and marketed the same. Take a jaunt down to Miami and look through the marinas.....full of carved bars of soap,....boring and unimaginative even with their incredible interiors. The N-56 might be functionally styled, as is my boat. I like what you've done with it cuz it's more my style, but for the most part, we gotta live with them the way they are or have an awful lot of money to burn.
Every change I've made to my boat, I've Photo-Shopped first to see if I've made an even more style-challenged boat more challenged than before. So far, so good, but I've gotten a great deal of critique from traditionalists, which unfortunately is the kind of buyer that is interested in function over form designs, and eventually who I'll have to market my boat to as well.
Every change I've made to my boat, I've Photo-Shopped first to see if I've made an even more style-challenged boat more challenged than before. So far, so good, but I've gotten a great deal of critique from traditionalists, which unfortunately is the kind of buyer that is interested in function over form designs, and eventually who I'll have to market my boat to as well.
The way the N 56 is built, these changes are only possible in fantasy land. The entire deck/pilothouse out to the bulwarks is one piece from a female mold and it wouldn't be feasible to do this.
I like the N56 and if I had one I wouldn't let anyone near her with a saw in their grubby hand..
Still, it's fun to play designer when it doesn't cost anything or damage any boats.
healhustler
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T
I like the N56 and if I had one I wouldn't let anyone near her with a saw in their grubby hand..
Still, it's fun to play designer when it doesn't cost anything or damage any boats.
Agreed, but with these older 70's and 80's boats, if one sees an opportunity to improve something without compromising the strength, balance, CG, saftey or intention of the design, modern materials and tech "could" improve performance, convenience, and maybe even the appearance. Necessity forced me to take a saw to mine already, and I'm not done yet.
The way I look at it, it's your boat, do what you want. It's not something sacred. Like houses. Looked once at a house that was an odd color. An artist owned it. Broker said, "Do not let her know you intend to paint it. She wouldn't sell to one couple who did."
I think you've done a great job on your boat.
When it comes to houses, I think there are two many house rehab shows on television now. When we bought our house we sure took the saws to it, or had them taken to it. Walls down, openings, rooms combined, painting. You love your boat but only if...it had or didn't have something. Well, if it can be made better for your tastes, then do it.
lelievre12
Veteran Member
I think the type of boat you are after is the standard Northern European motor sailors. I have had many Nauticat and the Nauticat 441 is a great sailing boat as well as a super strong passagemaker under diesel.
Also the traditional Dutch steel motorsailors like the wonderful De Vries out of steel are true blue and very good buying at the moment. see De Vries Lentsch - 1485 Seagoing ketch Motorsailer Sailboat for sale in Netherlands :: Boatshop24
Also the traditional Dutch steel motorsailors like the wonderful De Vries out of steel are true blue and very good buying at the moment. see De Vries Lentsch - 1485 Seagoing ketch Motorsailer Sailboat for sale in Netherlands :: Boatshop24
eyschulman
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Agree with the idea of a north sea type MS. I also note earlier remarks about MS not being a good M or S boat. Well its a compromise that when well designed and built right results in a superb long distance boat. The sails are there for auxiliary and steadying purposes and the motor to achieve hull speed at a good fuel burn rate. The interiors while not house boat in nature are usually commodious sail boat type. I once complained to a Dutch builder and designer of a MS about the sails being too small and he proceeded to educate me about old school MS design and why the sails were there. The newer school MS like the Bruckman fifty are a different animal closer to a 100/100% MS
C lectric
Guru
There have been some smaller power vessels designed for long range cruising. Whether or not they were truly practical I know not.
Camano, Bob Warman, designed a 36'?? Camano of aluminum many years ago which was supposed to be able to reach Hawaii from Vancouver, B.C.
Loved the look of the boat but I don't think there were more than one or two sold. I did see one in person many years later.
I've seen another boat, about 40', without knowing the builders, that did cross the Pacific on a multiyear cruise, leaving and returning to the Y.C. I was a member of at the time.
Unfortunately though, the market for true small passagemakers is small with the result there are few of them around. I certainly am not in the crowd that can afford these but I do take an interest when I see one but there are not many at all. Usually much larger boats.
Camano, Bob Warman, designed a 36'?? Camano of aluminum many years ago which was supposed to be able to reach Hawaii from Vancouver, B.C.
Loved the look of the boat but I don't think there were more than one or two sold. I did see one in person many years later.
I've seen another boat, about 40', without knowing the builders, that did cross the Pacific on a multiyear cruise, leaving and returning to the Y.C. I was a member of at the time.
Unfortunately though, the market for true small passagemakers is small with the result there are few of them around. I certainly am not in the crowd that can afford these but I do take an interest when I see one but there are not many at all. Usually much larger boats.
Conrad
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I think that one was a 42; Pacific Yachting did a writeup on it, and I think you're right, there were only a couple produced. He also made a smaller 35 I think, but not sure if it was aluminum. All before he started produced the very successful 28/31.
Truant also made a very offshore looking 44' trawler; don't think they made too many, and no idea how offshore capable it actually was.
