Why Not Women?

The broker thread was drifting into a pretty interesting topic before it closed: Why don't more women participate in TF discussions? I was posting the following, but it closed too quickly:

Why not simply ask our wives/significant others? Mine says it's a combination of excruciating technical detail that she would often feel ill-prepared to participate in, PLUS no desire to be in a pack of male dogs peeing on trees. (She can be pretty candid)

I imagine the women who DO participate would have some valuable insights as well.

That's a good point.....


1983 Present 42 Sundeck
Lehman 135 Twins

angus99,
I think your wife summed it up nicely.

But there are many topics discussed here that women could have lots to say. Cooking obviously, painting and decorating, design from an aesthetics standpoint, for some .. navigation, stoves, heaters, bedding, planning ..... yea come to think of it women could be significant on TF.

But I think they consider it (TF) a man cave. And most posts are responses so you've got to read the thread to respond and our girls don't.

I sure don't run OUR boat by myself so Chris is a big part of our boating. But not there on TF. I'll ask her about this. Big Easter egg hunt thing today so not a good time as she's a planner and very busy .... as I will be soon.

The thing to look at is why there are almost no women in traditional forums like TF, SailNet, CruisersForum, SailboatOwners, etc., but the cruising groups are filled with women participants on Facebook.

Even suggesting that women aren't interested in cruising is nonsense. It's just not true as a generalization.

I can add one fact to the discussion. More than 50% of the participants on ActiveCaptain are women. More than 50% of the people writing in to us are women. When we plan a Defender 1st special with Defender and target a "women" type of product, it sells through the roof.

Karen and I have spent hundreds of hours analyzing this and trying to understand why it happens. For some reason, traditional forums bring out bad behavior and a nasty environment. Some are worse than others and like I've said before, TF is better although it still goes on here. I think it's better here because the numbers are quite small - too small - to have the same piling on effect common in many other forums. I don't know why it happens as a general rule. It just doesn't happen in other media in the same way.

We've talked to hundreds and perhaps thousands of women about it. They all target the same types of reasons - they think it's mean spirited and women won't put up with that for social interaction. Men will for some bizarre reason.

I think it has something to do with the email notifications. Email from a known place tends to make you react. People go into Facebook to purposely look around and interact. Here, it's a reaction to something you're "subscribed" to. It's subtle but it's a major difference.

I also think that forums are generally more anonymous in nature. Certainly they are much more anonymous than Facebook. Anonymity leads to worse behavior especially in men from my experience. There are things said publicly in forums between individuals that would never be said in person, face-to-face.

I really don't think forums like this will exist in 10 years. They are the "bulletin boards" and chat rooms from the 1990-2000's that no longer exist for much of the same reasons.

100 years ago when dinner was over the men retreated to one room, women another. When I was a little kid, after Thanksgiving, the men and women separated. To this day, my wife is in a book club where the poor husband of the hosting wife has to disappear on club night (disappearing into the garage or basement is usually sufficient). I love my wife's company, we spend 90% of our lives together, but there's a chemistry and rapport by gender that still exists and probably always will. That gender chemistry or atmosphere is pretty strong on TF. It's probably because we're overwhelmingly power boaters. It's the mechanics. You notice on sailing forums it's a little more balanced (although clearly skewed toward men there too). Not PC, not a very contemporary thing to point out, but the genders have different chemistry and affinities (generally, of course) and so it ever shall be.

You know, I'm not so sure that forums like this will vanish eventually. These forums are a lot like the bulletin boards on the 'net in the 90's - packaged in a much nicer way, but essentially the same thing. Look at the persistence of email. I was sending email in college in the 80's and here I am 30 years later still sending email. Sometimes things just work, they just fill a need and that's it.

These sum it up pretty well ...

angus99 said:

... Plus no desire to be in a pack of male dogs peeing on trees. (she can be pretty candid) :d

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activecaptain said:

... we've talked to hundreds and perhaps thousands of women about it. They all target the same types of reasons - they think it's mean spirited and women won't put up with that for social interaction. Men will for some bizarre reason.

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I have to pretty much agree with Jeff. I have participated on other forums/lists where there is more female involvement; T&T was that way and still is to some degree; the Hatteras Owner's Forum has several active female participants (though far from 50%!)
Then you have the testosterone free for alls like THT...

In my experience, women are better at sniffing out bluster, posturing and BS, and in general have less tolerance of it.

Almost everything of what I post on cruising, living aboard, destinations and the overall lifestyle is informed by Ann every bit as much as me.

I agree that more open, social-oriented venues will dominate; what will be popular 10 years from now hasn't been invented yet.

You just have to look at the way Galaxy Girl was treated here.

manyboats said:

angus99,
I think your wife summed it up nicely.

But there are many topics discussed here that women could have lots to say. Cooking obviously, painting and decorating, design from an aesthetics standpoint, for some .. navigation, stoves, heaters, bedding, planning ..... yea come to think of it women could be significant on TF.

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Eric, I am surprised at you. I know you didn't mean it that way, but it was a sort of a sexist remark. It just could be one reason more women do not participate. I know women who are the main operators of the boat, others that are excellent navigators, and even one that does the mechanical stuff on their boat. (her husband was a stroke victim) He runs the boat, she navigates and does engine checks, etc.

Women can feel catergorized, and shy away from rendering opinions in discussions dominated by men. They don't enjoy mens' pissing matches, but men better stay away from a cat fight. Oooooh, was that a sexist statement?

Here's where I should probably amplify on my wife's interests and abilities. I'd rather have her on the wheel of any of our sailboats than myself, especially during a race. She can sense minute shifts in the wind and coax the optimal speed out of the boat in any conditions. While she wasn't raised fixing cars or helping her dad repair the furnace, she insists on learning engine and mechanical system basics on our new-to-us trawler. I doubt she'll ever get into discussions on the perfect anchor or the finer points of crimping tools, but she'll learn enough to get the boat home should I ever become incapacitated.

And Eric, while I know you meant well, I can only hope she never reads your second paragraph

Obviously a lot have you have never worked in an office full of women....they make guys look like amateurs at skewering each other.

GG was treated better than most guys who went through the same series of posts....the chivalrous supported her when there was even nothing to support/defend. Actually that was the problem...most guys NEVER went through the same series of posts (or at least so few I can't remember any.

Using most of out sig others is irrelevant...they are the few percent of women booaters....lots of newbies/lurkers never pipe up for all kinds of reasons....not because of sex.

Women just humor us until we die. They got better things to do with their time than waste them typing on computers. So far I've never seen a Lazy Girl chair advertised anywhere, nor ever noticed a woman sitting in a Lazy Boy. In a whole house of furniture thats the last place you will see one. Women know what they're doing.

kthoennes said:

100 years ago when dinner was over the men retreated to one room, women another.

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...and not long before that, dinner was prepared and cleaned up by slaves and servants.

Thanks goodness we've progressed past all of that including and especially the need to have men and women separate into different conversations. Perhaps there is an underlying desire by some men to go back to those days and make places like forums unappealing to women. Thankfully, those very old and sexist ideas are gone.

ActiveCaptain said:

...and not long before that, dinner was prepared and cleaned up by slaves and servants.

Thanks goodness we've progressed past all of that including and especially the need to have men and women separate into different conversations. Perhaps there is an underlying desire by some men to go back to those days and make places like forums unappealing to women. Thankfully, those very old and sexist ideas are gone.

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Glad I'm not you. Yankees will put on their own leash. Smh

Conrad said:

You just have to look at the way Galaxy Girl was treated here.

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Exactly!

Thats why I opened up a thread about her buying a boat.

Wifey B:

Sorry I didn't see this thread and started another. I'm a woman. Captain. Equal participant. Women, if you're not, you're missing out. Men, if you're not encouraging her, you're one day dooming your continued boating.

As to the forum, I don't know. It's like it's built up as men and so women don't feel comfy. Have you dudes invited your wive's to participate, read with you, sometimes jump in with comments? If not, then freaking do it dummies....or are you trying to keep the men's club? Think about it.

That old bit of women to kitchen, men to tv and ball game just isn't with younger men and women today. Stereotypes fading. Women can be just as passionate about boating.

Perhaps they aren't interested in some of the tech stuff here but don't bet on it. My hubby is just as disinterested in that stuff as I am. Perhaps with some it's not enough socialization here, missing that aspect of boating. Talking about friends, what you do onboard, things you like to see and do on land, food and cooking, making love on the bridge. Maybe not enough sex, here....nope that's equal man's thing I guess. Seriously, perhaps if women were more involved there would be more about the emotional rushes of the water, the beauty of nature, the thrill of diving into the water in this secluded cove after a long day, tossing the bikini and just enjoying the commune with nature. Maybe how to have enough water, especially hot water for showers and washing hair.

My hubby and I are both passionate about boating. It's not just the acts of buying, then getting in a boat and going from point A to point B. It's the passion for the beauty of being on the water, wind in your face, gentle salt breeze. The dolphins playing at your bow, show offs that they are. Cheering for them and they give you more of a show as they love the attention. Perhaps that's it, that sometimes the discussions are too much fact and figures and not enough of the emotions and feelings, the very things that drive you to loving the water. Open up dudes. You didn't get into boating so you could drive a boat with twin 800 MAN's. You got into it because it gives you this feeling. Sometimes a rush. Sometimes a serenity. It has a peace, a beauty, so in contrast perhaps to your careers and the stresses of life. Worst day on the water is still a good day. Something new every day even if the same places.

Come read this forum and you see lots of boaters, but not sure you do hear enough about what makes it the greatest thing for a man and woman to participated in on the face of the earth. Well, second greatest. But second greatest is even greater on a boat....hehe.

I think Galaxy Girl was treated appropriately to "her" posts, it had nothing to do with her gender. And that's all I have to say about that.

caltexflanc said:

I think Galaxy Girl was treated appropriately to "her" posts, it had nothing to do with her gender. And that's all I have to say about that.

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Wifey B:

Not sure it was all appropriate, but don't think it was gender. Think it was posts. I've been through two years of her posts on multiple sites. I think a dude posting the same would have gotten same treatment. Now whether the treatment was right or wrong is another story.

But I've seen dudes treated tough too when it's like they weren't really doing anything on their own to develop knowledge, just wanted to be spoon fed on the forum.

If I felt it was sexist, I'd kick you dudes in the you know what, but this time I don't think that was it. On the other hand might it scare other females? Yes, cause they might not know the whole story.

If any doubt as to women and their mark in boating, study Linda Dashew's experience, contributions and writings.

For those who have had mothers, sisters and daughters doesn't there seem a very pronounced difference between the sexes? To manifest itself on TF is not surprising.

manyboats said:

angus99,
I think your wife summed it up nicely.

But there are many topics discussed here that women could have lots to say. Cooking obviously, painting and decorating, design from an aesthetics standpoint, for some .. navigation, stoves, heaters, bedding, planning ..... yea come to think of it women could be significant on TF.

But I think they consider it (TF) a man cave. And most posts are responses so you've got to read the thread to respond and our girls don't.

I sure don't run OUR boat by myself so Chris is a big part of our boating. But not there on TF. I'll ask her about this. Big Easter egg hunt thing today so not a good time as she's a planner and very busy .... as I will be soon.

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Angus99 and Don,
Sexist????? REALLY?
I wonder if my brain's OK as I don't see it at all. I consider myself one of the least likely to say something "sexist". Dying to hear what you guys consider sexist.

manyboats said:

Dying to hear what you guys consider sexist.

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Eric, it is just that your post gave the appearance of categorizing women to "traditional" roles as some men have seen them. As I said, I don't think you meant it that way.

By the way, I'm a pretty good decorator myself. I just hate it when colors clash, and scream at me!

manyboats said:

Angus99 and Don,
Sexist????? REALLY?
I wonder if my brain's OK as I don't see it at all. I consider myself one of the least likely to say something "sexist". Dying to hear what you guys consider sexist.

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Eric, I didn't use the word "sexist," but I do think a lot of women I know prefer not to be limited to stereotypical gender roles. My only point was that your list seemed a bit confining.

angus99 said:

Eric, I didn't use the word "sexist," but I do think a lot of women I know prefer not to be limited to stereotypical gender roles. My only point was that your list seemed a bit confining.

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Stereotyping is the best word. Now in some couples they fit. Not with us. Actually labeling us would be impossible and the moment you think you have us figured out then one of us might surprise you. We've so worn off on each other too. Sometimes we'll say something as the other would have and one of our friends will then call us by each other's names.

I might encourage each of you to ask your wife or girlfriends if there are topics she'd like to discuss with others. Just in seeing the list of topics mentioned in the post about women's likes, there are many of those even men might have some interest in. I know cooking, at least grilling for me. What about provisioning of food? How much do we decorate our boats? Furniture? Appliances? There are certainly topics beyond the boat and engines and mechanical parts. We all tend to follow form here and not often delve into new areas of discussion. I do think this breakout of discussions of women in boating is great. Just wish more women in the discussion. In fact, I just thought of one more threat to start in this regard.

BandB said:

Wifey B:

Sorry I didn't see this thread and started another. I'm a woman. Captain. Equal participant. Women, if you're not, you're missing out. Men, if you're not encouraging her, you're one day dooming your continued boating.

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Well, I disagree. Each couple finds the balance that works for them. On some boats the wife PREFERS to be the passenger. Running a boat and navigating is not a stress-free endeavor. If she (or he as the case might be) elects to be the First Mate, I see no reason to rock the boat.

What works well in the BandB boat might not be so on another.

Mother never was good at running the boat. She didn't have the feel for it so she didn't. On the other hand, she could feed us well, was willing to paint, wouldn't sand, didn't fiberglass, couldn't plot a course, could spot the marker, baked bread like you wouldn't believe, made conch fritters to die for, could cook any fish cleaned for her, etc. And that was after nearly 50 years of living aboard...

Cookie cutters are not for boaters. Each of us has strengths and weaknesses. If the wife WANTS to do anything, that should be the guide. Ditto husband. My neighbor when I was on dirt cooked. He found he enjoyed it, so after retirement took over the kitchen.

A lot of the gender "issues" are generated by expectations. When I was shopping for Seaweed any email sent to a broker was ignored or answered in one sentence. As soon as I started sending the letters from "Janice (and Frank)" I got answers.

It is what it is. Let a man walk into a fabric store and he'll think he's invisible. And when a woman walks into a marine hardware store and often she will often find the same experience. As for me, I'm too old to worry about it.

Besides, I'm having too much fun afloat.

janice142 said:

Well, I disagree. Each couple finds the balance that works for them. On some boats the wife PREFERS to be the passenger. Running a boat and navigating is not a stress-free endeavor. If she (or he as the case might be) elects to be the First Mate, I see no reason to rock the boat.

What works well in the BandB boat might not be so on another.

Mother never was good at running the boat. She didn't have the feel for it so she didn't. On the other hand, she could feed us well, was willing to paint, wouldn't sand, didn't fiberglass, couldn't plot a course, could spot the marker, baked bread like you wouldn't believe, made conch fritters to die for, could cook any fish cleaned for her, etc. And that was after nearly 50 years of living aboard...

Cookie cutters are not for boaters. Each of us has strengths and weaknesses. If the wife WANTS to do anything, that should be the guide. Ditto husband. My neighbor when I was on dirt cooked. He found he enjoyed it, so after retirement took over the kitchen.

A lot of the gender "issues" are generated by expectations. When I was shopping for Seaweed any email sent to a broker was ignored or answered in one sentence. As soon as I started sending the letters from "Janice (and Frank)" I got answers.

It is what it is. Let a man walk into a fabric store and he'll think he's invisible. And when a woman walks into a marine hardware store and often she will often find the same experience. As for me, I'm too old to worry about it.

Besides, I'm having too much fun afloat.

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Wifey B: Didn't mean to imply same for all couples. Just if one likes to cruise and the other doesn't like it then it can create difficulties. I have no issue if couples choose stereotypical roles or any other roles that work for them. Whatever works is great. Just absence from each other is difficult for most as is cruising when one dislikes it.

The thing you mention about the salesman we ran into buying my dream car but in person on one lot. I ask question, salesman addresses answer to hubby.

manyboats said:

Angus99 and Don,
Sexist????? REALLY?
I wonder if my brain's OK as I don't see it at all. I consider myself one of the least likely to say something "sexist". Dying to hear what you guys consider sexist.

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Manyboats, Your brain is just fine. It's the brains of easily offended and overly sensitive people that I worry about.

BandB said:

The thing you mention about the salesman we ran into buying my dream car but in person on one lot. I ask question, salesman addresses answer to hubby.

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A friend of mine (male) quilts and he is almost always ignored when in a fabric shop. Sales ladies talk to his wife who wouldn't know a cotton from a wool. They both laugh about it.

Most of the time I let stuff roll off because few 50-something women with grey hair are boaters. And as a soloist? Not many of us are out here...

Though I don't meet the norms I am old enough to realize that most salesmen are going to focus on the percentages -- and I'm not regarded as a potential buyer.
#1) I'm wearing a dress.
#2) A dog is in my purse.
Seriously, would most salespeople in West Marine think I knew a block with a becket from one without?

What makes me sad though is when spouses do not listen. And yes, I mean really listen and hear what the partner is saying.

A while back I met a couple. They'd lost their trawler in Hurricane Ivan and had been shopping for a new one. He bought the boat of is dreams. She'd said "no, not that boat" but he knew she'd learn to love it.

Well, she didn't. And wouldn't EVER like that boat. Why? Because she was a cook and a baker. It was her pleasure in life. In order to open the oven she had to step out into the companionway. Every meal had to be hauled up three steps to the salon, out the side door and up two more to the aft deck where they dined.

It was a lousy set up. In the galley she could not look out the window and see anything but the side deck and it was enclosed. There was no way possible to improve /fix what was wrong and less than a year later she was in a condo and the boat was for sale.

Had the fellow heard her words ("not that one") he'd have not bought that particular boat. I do believe they'd have had years aboard instead of an aborted, expensive test run that was destined to fail.

If you like a fly bridge you'll hate my boat. I want a galley up, and there are those who prefer down. That's why there are so many boats built, but hearing (really hearing/listening) would avoid some of the failures.

Partners, real ones, need to lighten up and give it a go. And I have seen reluctant spouses turn into enthusiastic cruisers -- the inverse is true too. I've seen enthusiasm die in the face of Captain Bligh as often as Evil Screeching Woman destroy dreams.

The volatile couples don't seem to last long.

As a girl, I do want a nest and chose a boat that allows me to nest. There is a level of decadence I won't do without. Seaweed isn't perfect, but she's getting closer.

I'm rambling, and will stop now.

Nice ramble Janice,
Stereotyping in couples only is a problem when there's a mismatch in couples. And of course honesty is essential. My stepdaughter said once "mom's shoveling the driveway .. you should be doing that. That's man's work". In that case it wasn't stereotyping but a difference of opinions. I don't think a driveway needs shoveling unless it would be difficult to walk or drive over it. Lots and lots of people in Thorne Bay AK shoveled snow when there was only small amounts of it and I thought it was a waste of time. Chris didn't so she shoveled the driveway .. sometimes. Then I'd feel guilty and go help her. And mostly not grumbling as I knew she thought it was important. Perhaps she thought part of being an Alaskan was shoveling snow. And perhaps most of the townspeople thought so too. Being an Alaskan was very important to most there. I thought playing the role of an Alaskan or man/husband was a bit stupid. Still do. I don't like role playing but even I do it more than sometimes. If Chris was to step up and pull the anchor I'd prolly take the rode from her and may even say "that's man's work". It would be kidding mostly as if she were bigger and stronger than me I'd let her do it w/o feeling odd about it. And she would be proud to be pulling the anchor. I'm blessed w a wife that loves to work. There are times when I wish she'd just take a rest though.

Don and angus 99,
I see now. I was making a statement I didn't realize I was making. Honest men and women living and working together naturally pitch in and do what they do best to "get er done". Or do what we CAN do if it's extremely oriented to man or woman. I help w the cooking rarely and she lands the boat rarely. We have decades of experience to one deed and are better at it but both of us could do the other job w a lot of practice. We've talked about giving Chris lots of practice at landings but never seem to get around to it. We just do what we do over time. She does WANT to land the boat more than I want to do the cooking though.

And Janice you're right about "listening" re the story about the galley up or down couple. Once in a while Chris would put in a plug for a new stove and I assumed her interest was rather casual. Wrong. When I finally bought and installed the new stove she was so happy w it I knew I had made a mistake not getting it done long before. See pic of her soon after I hooked up the new stove. And she likes the galley in the salon. Pic was taken on a perfect day in a perfect anchorage (Red Bay no end of POW Is) but I think it says "I love my new stove".

manyboats said:

Don and angus 99,
I see now. I was making a statement I didn't realize I was making. Honest men and women living and working together naturally pitch in and do what they do best to "get er done". Or do what we CAN do if it's extremely oriented to man or woman. I help w the cooking rarely and she lands the boat rarely. We have decades of experience to one deed and are better at it but both of us could do the other job w a lot of practice. We've talked about giving Chris lots of practice at landings but never seem to get around to it. We just do what we do over time. She does WANT to land the boat more than I want to do the cooking though.

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All good, Eric. We have a similar approach to pitching in to get the job done . . . I just have a hard time matching my wife's 12 to 14-hour work days in the garden. The last thing I want to do is project our version of "normal" on anybody. Different strokes, as the song goes.