Advice Needed on Deliver Capt Issue

The more I think about it the more it becomes obvious to me that this old saying holds true in this case ... The Master's Eye makes the Horse fat.

Lessons learned here for the time I need the delivery captain are:
- make sure myself that the darn new-to-me boat floats and motors and steers w/o any issues before the delivery commences,
- make sure that the contract stipulates delivery captain qualifications, insurance/bonding status, insurance situation, and captain responsibility in "what if" situations,
- make sure that the transit path is checked and defined, and included as an exhibit in the contract,
- make sure to be a part of the voyage, in person and in mind, and oversee the execution of the defined plan ... the master's eye makes the horse fat.

wow,i didn't know font could get that big! Impressive

tinped said:

wow,i didn't know font could get that big! Impressive

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Can when you cut and paste and keep the format of the web site. lol

I can see that response from across the room without my glasses.Wish that was on my recent eye test!lol

I also ran aground in that same spot many years ago. It was a cold winter night. Not much fun. But we were able to back out of that area very quickly.Almost everyone does it once. You really have to zoom pretty far out on the plotter to see that the channel ends in the bay. Here is



a screenshot of that. It is the lower channel in the picture. It is in Matagorda Bay Texas.

Sent from my Galaxy SIII using speech to text.so some words may not be perfect.but it's easier.

I'd like to hear exactly from the OP as that doesn't match the mental picture I see of what he described.

tinped said:

wow,i didn't know font could get that big! Impressive

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Sure it can.

Richard W said:

The more I think about it the more it becomes obvious to me that this old saying holds true in this case ... The Master's Eye makes the Horse fat.

Lessons learned here for the time I need the delivery captain are:
- make sure myself that the darn new-to-me boat floats and motors and steers w/o any issues before the delivery commences,
- make sure that the contract stipulates delivery captain qualifications, insurance/bonding status, insurance situation, and captain responsibility in "what if" situations,
- make sure that the transit path is checked and defined, and included as an exhibit in the contract,
- make sure to be a part of the voyage, in person and in mind, and oversee the execution of the defined plan ... the master's eye makes the horse fat.

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Probably not...wouldn't happen with any captain I know....too many variables even just holding in a cut while a storm goes by can throw everything off....

But wording should include what you want...say "both owner/capt must be in agreement to deviate"...or at least something that allows flexibility yet makes the owner comfortable.

MYTraveler said:

By the way, ask him for a copy of the report he mandatorily filed with the USCG. If he didn't file one, he may really wish to make the whole thing go away.

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Good Point!!!

Here's a better screenshot. If you follow the magenta line like you're supposed to. You end up going the wrong way. In this case the lower line to the south is the dead end. The channel you're supposed to be in is the one north of that. This is the best I can do with a cell phone. The whole Coastal Bend of Texas is poorly maintained as far as nav aids are concerned. There are still things missing and out of place since the hurricanes of 2005. And then we got pummeled again in 2008. Nothing's really been done.

Sent from my Galaxy SIII using speech to text.so some words may not be perfect.but it's easier.

I guess I could put the picture in there.



Sent from my Galaxy SIII using speech to text.so some words may not be perfect.but it's easier.

OK...reread post #1 and it did say about 20 minutes after the channel junction.

If the capt had no local knowledge then it would be a tossup between the two routes (though the magenta line does pass close to some shoals.) But if he checked Active Captain (and maybe other sources) the hazards do say that route is pretty much shoal closed.

I would say there's almost enough there to go after the guy if there is ANY USCG or ACOE reports of this shoaling....but as many have mentioned...it's a stretch in my mind.

MYTraveler said:

I am an attorney, but have no experience with maritime law. Plus, I am new here, so my opinion is not worth much. However, for what it is worth, my instinct is that if the captain runs aground because he is unnecessarily outside of a charted passage, he is at fault. Especially if the soundings on the chart showed shallow water and agreed with the depth shown on your sounder. Under those circumstances, grounding sounds inevitable. If I were the captain, I would pay you the $2,600, or at least the charter fee. If I were you, I would have offered to split it with him. Under the circumstances, with him denying any responsibility, I don't think I would have paid him.

By the way, ask him for a copy of the report he mandatorily filed with the USCG. If he didn't file one, he may really wish to make the whole thing go away.

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Not sure one would have to be filed for a pleasure vessel not carrying passengers for hire.

Have a link to where it is required????

MYTraveler said:

By the way, ask him for a copy of the report he mandatorily filed with the USCG. If he didn't file one, he may really wish to make the whole thing go away.

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Please expand on this? If I run aground I have to notify the CG?

psneeld said:

OK...reread post #1 and it did say about 20 minutes after the channel junction.

If the capt had no local knowledge then it would be a tossup between the two routes (though the magenta line does pass close to some shoals.) But if he checked Active Captain (and maybe other sources) the hazards do say that route is pretty much shoal closed.

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This is a very confusing stretch indeed. The magenta line goes the southern route and my guess is that the gold square/triangle markers went the northern route. That means that the magenta line is incorrectly charted if the gold square/triangle assumption is correct. A local boater really should add a "confusing marker" notation on Active Captain at the very least.

I've seen people (sailboats mostly) who would drive over dry land if that is where the magenta line went. They're fixated on it when they should be paying attention to the marks and their sounder.

knotheadcharters said:

Please expand on this? If I run aground I have to notify the CG?

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There are provisions and requirements for reporting accidents with personal injury or property damage above a certain amount. I'm not sure if this is federal or state. I would imagine hitting bottom could be classified as an "accident".

Federal law requires the operator – or owner, if the operator is deceased or unable to make the report – to file a boating accident report with the State reporting authority when, as a result of an occurrence that involves a boat or its equipment:

• A person dies
• A person disappears from the vessel under circumstances that indicate death or injury
• A person is injured and requires medical treatment beyond first aid
• Damage to vessels and other property totals $2,000 (lower amounts in some states and territories) or more
• The boat is destroyed.

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http://www.uscgboating.org/safety/accident_reporting.aspx

Anyone KNOW if the yellow intracoastal marks follow the starboard route????

If they don't..... then the ball might be back in the capt's corner.

knotheadcharters said:

Please expand on this? If I run aground I have to notify the CG?

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Licensed captains are subject to onerous reporting requirements. I don't know the threshold, but understand it is surprisingly low; apparently the coast guard wants to hear about "everything" but applies a higher bar in deciding what they want to investigate.

Spraygun said:

Here's a better screenshot. If you follow the magenta line like you're supposed to. You end up going the wrong way. In this case the lower line to the south is the dead end. The channel you're supposed to be in is the one north of that. This is the best I can do with a cell phone. The whole Coastal Bend of Texas is poorly maintained as far as nav aids are concerned. There are still things missing and out of place since the hurricanes of 2005. And then we got pummeled again in 2008. Nothing's really been done.

Sent from my Galaxy SIII using speech to text.so some words may not be perfect.but it's easier.

Click to expand...

My charts, both NOAA raster and vector, don't show two channels there. The single channel on my charts is the northern one on your screenshot. The magenta line follows that (northern, on your screenshot) channel, and is marked as statute miles 465 and 460 (from west to east).

There's an ActiveCaptain Local Knowledge marker -- just west of the split at Palacios Channel (between 6A and 5) saying to take the alternate route, and that the "old/southern route has essentially been abandoned." The channel markers are 4A, 4 and 3 together, 2A, 2... all marked "Ra Ref (see note B)" on the raster chart... and then changes to a different sequence at 30, 29, etc.

Haven't found note B yet, not enough screen real estate to see the whole chart and actually read the tiny letters at the same time

-Chris


-Chris

rwidman said:

There are provisions and requirements for reporting accidents with personal injury or property damage above a certain amount. I'm not sure if this is federal or state. I would imagine hitting bottom could be classified as an "accident".

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federal....

CFR Title 33 Subchapter S Part 173
Navigation and Navigable Waters

MYTraveler said:

Licensed captains are subject to onerous reporting requirements. I don't know the threshold, but understand it is surprisingly low; apparently the coast guard wants to hear about "everything" but applies a higher bar in deciding what they want to investigate.

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I don't think so...they are subject to the law/regulations for the vessel they are operating (recreational, uninspected, inspected) and I'm pretty sure a delivery only meets recreational requirements.

I could be wrong...do you have a link to something in writing???

psneeld said:

I don't think so...they are subject to the law/regulations for the vessel they are operating (recreational, uninspected, inspected) and I'm pretty sure a delivery only meets recreational requirements.

I could be wrong...do you have a link to something in writing???

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I could be wrong too, but I have heard it so many times from licensed captains that they don't want to be on board a boat that has any kind of incident just because of the reporting and possible USCG follow-up investigation. By the way, I agree that the vessel inspection requirements don't change just because there is a licensed captain on board; the reporting I am referring to is triggered by the fact the licensed captain, not by the vessel's type or use.

MYTraveler said:

I could be wrong too, but I have heard it so many times from licensed captains that they don't want to be on board a boat that has any kind of incident just because of the reporting and possible USCG follow-up investigation. By the way, I agree that the vessel inspection requirements don't change just because there is a licensed captain on board; the reporting I am referring to is triggered by the fact the licensed captain, not by the vessel's type or use.

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I think you have it backwards...it's the vessel and the COI that determine what rules and regs apply...not the captain.

The rules require if a licensed captain is even necessary and what rules the and rating pertain to the captain.

Many licensed captains that aren't truly in a active commercial marine business (like charter boat capts and delivery capts) know just a hair more than the average boater...I know I taught many classes and had them calling me 6 months to a year later with the most basic questions.

It is true that the mantra of many with licenses don't want to be aboard a vessel that has an incident...because the USCG may try and hold them to the standard that "what did they do to prevent" the incident....a good example is out fishing with a friend that has had a few drinks and does something stupid...the USCG has issued warning that it may hold that licensed captain partially at fault for not preventing it if they could have...I know a stretch...but the buzz is out there (haven't heard it actually being done though). But many new captains have had the scare put in them.

psneeld said:

I think you have it backwards...it's the vessel and the COI that determine what rules and regs apply...not the captain.

The rules require if a licensed captain is even necessary and what rules the and rating pertain to the captain.

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Agreed. But if a licensed captain is hired to run a boat, regardless of whether it is necessary to hire a licensed captain, then the rule requiring that captain to report incidents applies. Or at least that is what I have come to understand. Sounds like you may know more tham me, however.

MYTraveler said:

Agreed. But if a licensed captain is hired to run a boat, regardless of whether it is necessary to hire a licensed captain, then the rule requiring that captain to report incidents applies. Or at least that is what I have come to understand. Sounds like you may know more tham me, however.

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The rules apply to vessels...not just the fact that the captain has a license. ..nothing specific to him/her.

I don't have to report grounding my personal boat unless it exceeds $2000 worth of damage...CFR 33.....even though I am a licensed captain.

But I DO have to report ANY grounding if operating a commercial inspected or uninspected vessel. This is a stretch because as an assistance owing vessel I'd be filling out multiple reports every day all summer long....

You don't even need a license for doing deliveries unless the owner's insurance requires it but you aren't "technically" exercising that license because it's NOT required for a delivery unless there are passengers for hire (which on a delivery would be very strange)

Outside of the right, wrong and responsibility of the incident, you covered your butt wisely with the tow insurance and even with the grounding, still didn't do a lot of damage. Limping around with a single engine and a small rudder wasn't any picnic either, especially with the rather poor weather conditions you noted. I feel for ya, but I'd bet that deliveries are full of incidents that involve equal amounts of mechanical and human failures. My own delivery Captain, skilled as he was, put us out of the infamous Jupiter Inlet in a 5-6 ft. confused chop. All I can really say is that it was a learning experience and taught me what I wanted to know about my boat's handling in those kinds of seas (a lot earlier than I ever wanted to learn it).

If you really feel that sufficient negligence was present, the most I'd do is have a Marine Attorney write him a letter about it. He knows he chose the wrong channel.....maybe he'd refund some of his fee. Otherwise, welcome to boat ownership and I'm glad you made it home in spite of everything you had to face on your maiden voyage.

Please don't take this the wrong way, as this is not so much about boating and hired captains, as it is about life and personality.

As many on this forum know about me; I learned years ago, about 3 careers back, that I would rather make my own mistakes, than other's.

For when i ignored my own advice, I beat myself up far more than the actual damage caused. That's what I read you doing here.

Lesson learned, move on.

psneeld said:

T
I don't have to report grounding my personal boat unless it exceeds $2000 worth of damage...CFR 33.....even though I am a licensed captain.

But I DO have to report ANY grounding if operating a commercial inspected or uninspected vessel. This is a stretch because as an assistance owing vessel I'd be filling out multiple reports every day all summer long....

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OK, I spoke with a licensed captain friend who explained it to me as follows. If there is an incident satisfying certain criteria (this one does, by virtue of the damage), the accident must be reported. If the licensed captain was operating the vessel at the time (and even if he wasn't under many circumstances) and if the accident isn't reported by him or someone else, then his license is at risk. Apparently the USCG takes non-reporting by captains seriously. But, you may know better.

MYTraveler said:

OK, I spoke with a licensed captain friend who explained it to me as follows. If there is an incident satisfying certain criteria (this one does, by virtue of the damage), the accident must be reported. If the licensed captain was operating the vessel at the time (and even if he wasn't under many circumstances) and if the accident isn't reported by him or someone else, then his license is at risk. Apparently the USCG takes non-reporting by captains seriously. But, you may know better. This is just a word to the wise.

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One of the complicating factors this time is that at the time of the grounding, the Captain had no idea the amount of damage. I don't know if either he or the owner believed it to be over $2000. How long after the accident before he was provided that information?

Here is a screen print from Active Captain and I just put hazard marker 3 on the screen print at the point the alternate channel went to starboard (heading west from right to left). We continued straight ahead in the old intercoastal channel until we grounded about 4 miles after this point. If you go to Active Captain and zoom in you can see the markers follow the starboard channel (the one to the north) and a hazard I added marked "Shoaling" where we went aground. There are absolutely no markers after the junction I marked so the triangles and squares had to to on the starboard (north) route were their were markers

Thanks for all the constructive feedback and comments. I think I will follow the advice to learn from the experience and enjoy the boat. Really the fault lies with me as I hired him. There were several other incidents along the way that caused me concern but the positive that comes out of this is that on it is I feel pretty good about my judgement when compared to his! I will do another post about the trip as there are many lessons for other new boat owners to learn from my experiences and mistakes. If I listed all of the Captain's incidents without covering the mistakes I made in the buying, trip preparation and delivery process it wouldn't be fair and many lessons would be lost. Fortunately, even with our mistakes we still feel like we bought the right boat that will serve us well over the long term.