Getting out of the rat race!

1. Are there property taxes on yachts in Florida?
2. What is the cost of registering your yacht in Florida, say something around the 50' range.
3. What's the estimated cost of insuring a yacht? Obviously I understand it depends of the vessel, year, # of engines, style of yacht. Let's say for argument sake, a 50' single screw trawler with the purchase price of 250K.
4. Dock fee's. Just a ball park figure for a 50', let's say Ft. Myer's. I'm sure Naples would be high end of this category.
5. How often would you need to dry dock your yacht for maintenance such as bottom painting & prop maintenance? Every 3 to 5 years? Sooner?
6. How often would you want to wash & wax your yacht being in a salt water climate?
7. What other fee's am I looking at besides the typical maintenance and fuel cost?

JDBlack7 said:

Okay guys & gals, I'm a newbie on the forum officially as of today.

I have a few questions to ask so I hope you guys will bare with me.

My plans are to sell my house within a year or so and buy a trawler and make it my new home. I will be paying cash so there won't be a loan. As of now, my intention is to live on the Gulf of Mexico with home base somewhere in Florida. Moms lives in Naples so it will probably be close to that area. I don't have children so that isn't a factor.

1. Are there property taxes on yachts in Florida?
   
   NO
2. What is the cost of registering your yacht in Florida, say something around the 50' range.
   
   $134.50 state plus some counties have additional small fees
3. What's the estimated cost of insuring a yacht? Obviously I understand it depends of the vessel, year, # of engines, style of yacht. Let's say for argument sake, a 50' single screw trawler with the purchase price of 250K.
   
   Huge range depending on where kept, your experience, age of boat, coverage. I'd say given your example the range is from a low of $3000 to a high of $12000
4. Dock fee's. Just a ball park figure for a 50', let's say Ft. Myer's. I'm sure Naples would be high end of this category.
   Ft Myers Yacht Basin is $9/foot per month on an annual basis plus $70 liveaboard plus electric plus parking if you have a car. Other rates will be higher or lower but I'd put a range of $400-800. Liveaboard is the bigger problem as there's a general shortage. But many options. You also have to figure out how much there and how much cruising which changes things a lot in terms of annual dockage
5. How often would you need to dry dock your yacht for maintenance such as bottom painting & prop maintenance? Every 3 to 5 years? Sooner?
   We haul out annually. However inspections can be done in water and we do that regularly as well. As to painting it varies so widely based on age of boat and type of paint. It can range from 3 to 10 years.
6. How often would you want to wash & wax your yacht being in a salt water climate?
   Wash every time you use it plus weekly if not used. Bottom cleaning is a big item. It's not quite as bad there as our area. We get our bottoms (excuse me, boat bottoms...wife wanted me to clear that up) cleaned every three to four weeks when home.
7. What other fee's am I looking at besides the typical maintenance and fuel cost?Maintenance depends on age and condition. 5-10% of price of boat is general number used. But also depends on how much you do yourself and how much it's used. As to fuel, depends on boat, usage, and speed. Some average more than a mile per gallon, some up to three. We go in the other direction averaging 2 to 3 gallons per mile. We've even averaged far more than that on a couple of our charter trips. Fuel is a big factor in your selection of boats. The information is readily available on most boats and engine combinations.

Okay, now the fun part. I'm wanting a raised pilot house with possibly 3 state rooms. I looked at a 46' GB Europa while in Florida last week...beautiful boat. But, not a raised pilot house trawler and kitchen seemed a bit small for a boat you'd make your home. To me it seemed more of a trawler you'd spend a couple of weeks on, not a permanent home. I understand there are people out there who do make these yacht's their homes so please don't take that the wrong way.

I'm leaning more towards a single screw trawler with a get home back up engine. Being a single screw trawler, bow & stern thrusters would be a must. FB is a must as well.

So, what do you guys recommend for a quality trawler that I can make my new home? How fast do you want to go? Where do you want to go? Will your travel be mostly alone? So many factors. Why do you care about the galley? Do you cook a lot? Will you cook fancy meals inside or grill on deck? How many staterooms? How many and how frequent guests? Where you're going leads to draft questions. If you decide to loop then air draft. Galley up or down? Size of engine room a big issue. Do you want a watermaker? Single or spare gen too? What kind of fuel range do you need in your area you intend to cover? I do understand the desire for a flybridge although some don't agree but why raised Pilothouse? Vision driving? I've seen many not raised that are equal and steps always a potential hazard and nuisance. (I say that as a question because I like raised pilothouse but just wondering your reason). Why 3 staterooms? Gets tight on a boat that size and if I was cruising mostly alone I might choose fewer. Nothing wrong with someone occasionally sleeping in salon. Yes your single vs. twin question is a good one. We prefer twin but most trawler users prefer single. Some depends on where and how you'll use it but single certainly saves money.

Thanks so much for your input, I look forward to reading reply's.

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ranger42c said:

JD, if it helps, we approach boat shopping by first drawing up a list of features we prefer. In our case, and in no particular order, that would be stuff like:

- an easy-to-make master berth (i.e., mostly walk-around, centerline, etc.)
- a good head
- being able for one of us to shower while the other person uses the head
- swim platform with transom door (First Mutt, don't ya know)
- flying bridge
- stairs -- not a ladder-- to the flying bridge
And so forth. Your own criteria will likely vary.

And then we go find a boat attached to all that.

Sounds like you're on the same track with your idea about a raised pilothouse and 3 staterooms, but maybe if you flesh that out a bit it might become eaier to shop on Yachtworld (for example).

-Chris

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JDBlack7 said:

Thanks to everyone who replied to my thread, all of your reply's were very helpful and insightful.

First question I noticed was if I every owned or operated a yacht of this size and the answer is no. I have owned a 24' inboard ski boat, but obviously that's a different world, besides the basic understanding how a inboard boats maneuver, especially backing up...not very well. I will be taking a course on general yachtsmanship operation and so forth, any recommendations on a specific course would be great.

"It sounds like you are well on your way getting the training you will need. Now it is a matter of getting some actual experience. The good news that many of the modern design trawler are pretty easy to operate with a little practice."

As far as maintenance and up keep goes, I'm a very mechanically inclined person so I'd probably be doing a majority of maintenance myself. I had my LS2 engine torn down to the short block so I doubt I'd be too intimidated by a diesel engine. If there's a manual for it then no problem. Taking a class probably wouldn't hurt, but if it's over my head I know when to call in the professionals. Changing out filters and fluids isn't rocket science, but if there's a trick to it then I'll learn how. I'm sure the fuel systems are pressurized since diesels operate off combustion pressure versus a electrical spark. There will be a learn curve for sure.

"Having mechanical skills and a willingness to do the work will really help in managing your costs. I didn't know which end of a hammer to use when we purchased our first large boat. To learn, I would hire marine professionals to do work on the boat and pay a little extra to explain what they were doing. I ran into a mechanic that would come to do routine maintenance and then watch me as I did the work. Best money I ever spent, followed by getting the list of tools he recommended. All that said, I still find that the cost of ownership is more than expected and I have been a this for a while."

In regards to cleaning, it looks like I'll need to become certified on scuba diving so I can clean the bottom of my boat. Actually I had planned on getting certified regardless because if I'm living on a yacht and exploring the Caribbean, Gulf of Mexico and other destinations I'll definitely be doing some diving.

"I don't know about the marinas in Florida but many marinas in the PNW no longer allow divers cleaning the bottom of the boat. I am a certified diver and have cleaned th bottom our boat. It is a lot of work. I prefer to have it done by a diving service. Even with a diver, I still haul the boat once per year to do zincs and check the bottom."

I'm blown away that a 50' yacht cost so much more to insure than my house does. I understand that it's a boat on the water and has engines and so forth but that seems high. I guess it all depends on the value of the vessel and replacement cost. I guess the insurance company's view boat/yacht ownership for people with deep pockets. I wonder, is it the liability aspect that drives the price up or some other factors...probably all above.

"Yep, one of many little surprises you will get!"

Now the dreaded single versus twin engines comparison. Double the engines double the maintenance cost? I always assumed that trawlers were relatively slow to start with? The 46' GB Europa I looked at in Punta Gorda stated that it had a maximum speed of 19 kn with a cruising speed of 9 kn with twin Cats. I would assume anything above cruising speed is going to burn a lot of diesel. I understand the maneuverability of twins when it comes to docking and overall speed, but doesn't that second engine up the operating and maintenance cost? I've only been on this forum for two days and seems like this is a really big debated topic.

"This is a huge debate. We have a single engine trawler. I have crossed oceans in a single engine trawler. However, you will hear from others that feel very differently."

Would someone please explain to me the difference between a fast trawler versus a displacement trawler. I think I may already know answer but then again I'm probably wrong. Which is capable of crossing a ocean versus hugging the costal shore line? Can single screw yacht not cross the Atlantic, or any other large body of water with a back up get home safe engine, generally speaking? What would be a max cruising speed be on a single screw engine, of course I understand that there's many variables, but would it be in the range of maximum 12 to 15 kn with a cruising speed of 8 to 9?

"Trawlers come in a wide variety of shapes and sizes. They break out generally into two groups. One group favor the full keel, heavy displacement approach, e.g. Nordhavn and Krogen. More recently a new design that combines a full keel that tapers to a flatter aft have become popular. These boats often have larger engines and are generally focused at folks that want to do extended cruising, eg., American Tugs, Nordic Tugs. We are currently waiting the delivery of our second American Tug. Our new boat will have the fast trawler but will have a continuous duty engine that is a little lower horse power than would be normal. It will have a top speed of 12 knots and have a cruising speed of around 9 to 10 knots. Salish Lady is meant to do extended coastal cruising but we do not expect to cross oceans."

In regards to the style of trawler I'm interested in, that obviously boils down to personal preference. I think I'm realizing that something under 50' will be less costly to own and operate, so with that being the case, my search will probably be for something in the mid forties more than likely. RT Firefly above mentioned "that everything on a boat is a compromise". Probably isn't a truer statement when it comes to a boating lifestyle, but if I'm going to sell my house and commit to living a boat I'm surely going to shop around and hopefully get what I want. I guess it all comes down to dollars and what's available. I still have to sell my home and I just came up with this lifestyle change idea so I'm just starting this quest...dream.

"RT Firefly is absolutely right every boat is a comprise. The trick is to really spend some time understanding what you want to accomplish with the boat. Any boat that fulfills most of those needs is the right boat."

Finally, a couple of people above recommended that I should rent a couple of trawlers and take a week out in the Gulf and judge for myself. That is a excellent idea!

"Getting actual hands on experience is very valuable, not to mention fun!"

The main reason I joined this forum was to educate myself and learn everything I could possibly learn before making that jump from a home/land owner to a yacht owner.

"The only caution I would offer is that we tend to be an opinioned lot. It get get a little difficult distinguishing opinion from fact and which opinion is more important to you. When we were starting out, it took us a while to figure how to filter all the good information and opinions. We found that we had to keep going back to our list of important needs."

Thanks again for all of your responses, they were all very helpful and actually opened my eyes more to what is reality when it comes to living on a yacht. I look forward to reading and learning from your experiences.

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JDBlack7 said:

Thanks to everyone who replied to my thread, all of your reply's were very helpful and insightful.

First question I noticed was if I every owned or operated a yacht of this size and the answer is no. I have owned a 24' inboard ski boat, but obviously that's a different world, besides the basic understanding how a inboard boats maneuver, especially backing up...not very well. I will be taking a course on general yachtsmanship operation and so forth, any recommendations on a specific course would be great.

As far as maintenance and up keep goes, I'm a very mechanically inclined person so I'd probably be doing a majority of maintenance myself. I had my LS2 engine torn down to the short block so I doubt I'd be too intimidated by a diesel engine. If there's a manual for it then no problem. Taking a class probably wouldn't hurt, but if it's over my head I know when to call in the professionals. Changing out filters and fluids isn't rocket science, but if there's a trick to it then I'll learn how. I'm sure the fuel systems are pressurized since diesels operate off combustion pressure versus a electrical spark. There will be a learn curve for sure.

In regards to cleaning, it looks like I'll need to become certified on scuba diving so I can clean the bottom of my boat. Actually I had planned on getting certified regardless because if I'm living on a yacht and exploring the Caribbean, Gulf of Mexico and other destinations I'll definitely be doing some diving.

I'm blown away that a 50' yacht cost so much more to insure than my house does. I understand that it's a boat on the water and has engines and so forth but that seems high. I guess it all depends on the value of the vessel and replacement cost. I guess the insurance company's view boat/yacht ownership for people with deep pockets. I wonder, is it the liability aspect that drives the price up or some other factors...probably all above.

You haven't insured a home in a flood zone on the coast of Florida. Many factors influence boat insurance but the most significant is the occasional extreme loss of many boats during a storm or hurricane. Right now rates have risen due to Sandy. Years ago Andrew did it. And it doesn't just impact those in the area. The insurance companies have big losses to recover.

Now the dreaded single versus twin engines comparison. Double the engines double the maintenance cost? I always assumed that trawlers were relatively slow to start with? The 46' GB Europa I looked at in Punta Gorda stated that it had a maximum speed of 19 kn with a cruising speed of 9 kn with twin Cats. I would assume anything above cruising speed is going to burn a lot of diesel. I understand the maneuverability of twins when it comes to docking and overall speed, but doesn't that second engine up the operating and maintenance cost? I've only been on this forum for two days and seems like this is a really big debated topic. Like many things it is a matter of personal preference. Second engine definitely ups cost and we say that as owners only of twins.

Would someone please explain to me the difference between a fast trawler versus a displacement trawler. I think I may already know answer but then again I'm probably wrong. Which is capable of crossing a ocean versus hugging the costal shore line? Can single screw yacht not cross the Atlantic, or any other large body of water with a back up get home safe engine, generally speaking? What? Crossing an ocean hugging the shore line? In crossing oceans you are a long long way from shore lines. Cross the Atlantic in an 8 knot boat and from Bermuda to the Azores you'll be at sea nearly two weeks between the islands. No shore. What would be a max cruising speed be on a single screw engine, of course I understand that there's many variables, but would it be in the range of maximum 12 to 15 kn with a cruising speed of 8 to 9? Please don't let the group go wild debating the labels. Let's simplify it without labels. Some boats are designed to only go at displacement speeds, that is speeds not much more than the hull speed. The hull speed, depending on the boat, is something like 1.3 times the square root of the waterline length. So take a 46 foot boat that is 40' at the waterline and the hull speed is about 8 knots. A true displacement vessel in this range will go about 8-10 knots, perhaps up to 12. The boat is designed to be efficient especially at hull speed. But adding power doesn't add much to it as it takes a lot of additional horsepower to get any additional speed. At the other end of the spectrum you have planing hulls like your inboard was. They are designed to rise up on the water under power and obtain speed as they travel mostly along the top of the water. Very little of the hull remains in the water for the most efficient of them, such as racing boats. Everything else is in between. Boats are called semi-displacement, fast trawler, semi-planing, fast displacement and many other things. But what they all have in common is that while they're often used at displacement speeds they are also designed to achieve higher speeds with a hull design that has some planing features and can lift it up a bit in the water. These boats can generally go faster than a full displacement (typically have a fast cruise at 15-20 knots). However, they can also be used at displacement speeds. However, because they often have larger engines, they are not as cheap to operate at displacement speeds as a true displacement boat with a small single engine. Still for many a great compromise. Many manufacturers like Grand Banks that were once builders of single engine displacement boats migrated into the twin engine semi displacement arena. Others such as Nordhavn never have strayed, well until Nordhavn's latest introduction.

In regards to the style of trawler I'm interested in, that obviously boils down to personal preference. I think I'm realizing that something under 50' will be less costly to own and operate, so with that being the case, my search will probably be for something in the mid forties more than likely. RT Firefly above mentioned "that everything on a boat is a compromise". Probably isn't a truer statement when it comes to a boating lifestyle, but if I'm going to sell my house and commit to living a boat I'm surely going to shop around and hopefully get what I want. I guess it all comes down to dollars and what's available. I still have to sell my home and I just came up with this lifestyle change idea so I'm just starting this quest...dream.

Finally, a couple of people above recommended that I should rent a couple of trawlers and take a week out in the Gulf and judge for myself. That is a excellent idea!
The main reason I joined this forum was to educate myself and learn everything I could possibly learn before making that jump from a home/land owner to a yacht owner.

Thanks again for all of your responses, they were all very helpful and actually opened my eyes more to what is reality when it comes to living on a yacht. I look forward to reading and learning from your experiences.

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ranger42c said:

And FWIW, there's "crossing oceans" (e.g., transatlantic) and there's "coastal cruising"... but many "coastal" boats are quite suitable for puttering around the Caribbean or crossing (or maybe more like circumnavigating) the Gulf. Yes, weather windows and hopping distances can be important, more so for some boats than for others... but often, people comfort is more limiting than the boat's capabilities.

Within reason.

-Chris

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