Workaboards

MV Salish Lady · Mar 17, 2014

Hi Folks:

My wife and I are summer workaboards in the Pacific Northwest. I define work aboard as someone who lives on board and has a job that allows them to make a living while cruising. This is different that someone who lives aboard but is primarily tied to a dock and has to go to a land-based job pretty much every day. We did this for many years.

There has been a lot of discussion recently on selling everything buying a boat and go cruising. Although, I think this is a great idea for some, it is not something my wife and want for ourselves. We like our work and don't want to give it or the lifestyle it affords us. However, we also enjoy cruising our boat and love that lifestyle and have found a way to combine the two.

I am working on a story about the work aboard lifestyle and would be very interested in other cruiser perspectives on the lifestyle. I am especially interested those that are out there working and living on their boats.

If you have a story or perspective, please let me know.

Thank you

Shawn

magicbus · Mar 17, 2014

We are currently cruising, living and working on the boat for the winter but getting ready to head north to a land-based home. I write computer software and as long as I have an Internet connection the people I work for really don't care where I am, and as long as I have a cell connection I have Internet. My wife recently sold her real estate business but stays active as an agent working remotely doing listings and seasonal rentals in the resort area we call home. We still enjoy working and the lifestyle it affords us too much to stop, but I can see it winding down in 2-3 years.

Dave

angus99 · Mar 17, 2014

I'd like to know more about this myself. Also the tax implications of using part of your boat, internet connection, electricity etc. for business purposes. I've told the admiral that this time when I retire, it's for good. But the closer it gets, the more I can see myself setting aside a day or two a week to make money to support the boating addiction. :popcorn:

caltexflanc · Mar 17, 2014

I did this for about a year and a half of our full time cruising days. Though I can't say it was anything near full time work, and not as an employee. I was doing some consulting and helping put some small mergers together. We set up for it with a ready to assemble desk that fit and matched almost perfectly, had a couple file drawers and accommodated an iMac and an HP all-in-one. (Old pic, that iMac bit the dust and was replaced with a new one a couple years ago)

I could also use my laptop at the dinette or on the aft deck, each of which afforded more surface to spread out papers, etc.

I remember being moored out in Boot Key Harbor, I was on a conference call with a couple of business owners and an investment banker. Heard some knocks on the side of the boat and it was a small dinghy flotilla of my buddy bums armed with their afternoon's beer and thermoses. I waved them off, pointing to my cell phone, the spent the rest of the time circling the boat and making faces at me. Talk about when world's collide!

All in all I personally found it very difficult to do real work and cruise, and made the decision early in the first few months to focus on cruising full time. That's what I quit my "real job" to do for a couple years and we wanted to make the most of it. But as we began to stretch that two year plan out a bit, I had to start getting back into it more seriously, partly because the recession hit and I had to get sucked in to help some ventures I had a hand in. I finally had to just dock the boat in Hollywood, FL for three months or so, skipped the islands altogether and just went to the Keys for a two week-ish vacation. I told Ann there was no way I could be a productive member of society while on Island or Conch time.

Angus, if you own the boat outright, the only way you can get a tax deduction is if you charter it. Perhaps you can try to set it up as a business address but everyone I know who has tried to deduct it's expenses like a home office has failed. If you have a note on it, you can quite easily take the mortgage and property tax deduction as a first or second home, it just has to have a galley, heads and sleeping quarters.

So like many things in boating it is a personal thing as to how doable it is, and it is also dependent on what kind of work you do. We had the perfect boat for it, and when we swallowed the anchor, so to speak, lived and worked from it full time quite easily.

ksanders · Mar 17, 2014

I work from our boat, during our boating season. This is in preparation to cruising and working full time, once we get it completely figured out.

I run a electrical parts company, geared towards the nitch market of power switching, measurement, and generation automation. I am also a Cisco network engineer, and am incorporating those skills into our existing product lines as a value added component.

To accomodate this we have an advanced network on our boat that automatically switches between LTE/4G cellular service and high speed satellite based data and voice services. For this deployment I chose the KVH industries V3 minivsat system. It was not cheap, but it is rock solid reliable and is the only platform I found that provides high speed internet at sea.

We have an extension of our Cisco business PBX on our boat when in Cellular range, and satellite based business grade telephone service anywhere in the world.

For those asking about the tax ramifications, our tax CPA advised us to use business funds for any and all infrastructure used to support the boat as a telecommuter location. We do not try to use any other tax write offs on the boat as the boat is not necessary for the business per se. I am an employee and as such the business can make accomodations to support telecommuting as a legitimate business expense.

Moonfish · Mar 17, 2014

During the summer cruising season, we are typically "out" and working for 3-4 months. And while we have a slip and "winter" in a marina the rest of the year, we do get out to produce various boating videos at any given time.

I operate our business, Pacific NW Boater, from the office/editing studio on our boat all year long. Through the business, my wife is a contractor for Cruising Outpost magazine. Like others, as long as we have cell reception/internet (Verizon WiFi JetPack - it's great!) we can work anywhere.

Our CPA has us set up as a business aboard, with the business "leasing" the boat from us as the owners.

SeaMoose · Mar 17, 2014

I work from the boat during the season more than I work from my home office. I run a software company that does digital interactive using onshore and offshore resources. Biggest challenge is the bandwidth available via 4g and/ or marina wi-fi. One also needs the necessary cloud services, and a top notch electronic filing system.

ksanders · Mar 17, 2014

SeaMoose said:
I work from the boat during the season more than I work from my home office. I run a software company that does digital interactive using onshore and offshore resources. Biggest challenge is the bandwidth available via 4g and/ or marina wi-fi. One also needs the necessary cloud services, and a top notch electronic filing system.

Exactly.

One of our challenges is that I'm working to eliminate our main server and pbx from the picture.

There are services that offer ms exchange compatible email, so that's where we're going.

As far as pbx services there are services for that as well.

We can use NAS as a storage solution.

This should make us server and pbx independant, but it's a process.

BandB · Mar 17, 2014

We retired......but.....well, that's when I realized business was a hobby too. I know it sounds sick. First, I do occasional projects for my former employer, most of which can be completed in one day. She helps me. Now we spend about 2/3 or our time on the boat so it's wherever we are as these are always time sensitive reviews of potential acquisitions. I do them as a favor for all he's done for me and because I enjoy them as occasional mental stimulation. And they do pay quite well.

But the other part that was no part of our plans initially was owning any business ourselves. Maybe it's a hobby that has gotten way out of hand but we have excellent people running things. Someone mentioned trying to be productive at Conch Harbor. Well, we don't work a lot, mainly emails most nights and then scheduled staff meetings. Specific times, specific durations. So, it's set up in such a way that it doesn't interfere with cruising but cruising doesn't interfere with it. Typically a couple of hours on a Friday morning. Maybe fifteen minutes a night for both of us on emails.

We enjoy it. It's by choice.

As to tax deductions, we know we could easily take a part of the communications costs. However, we've chosen not to. The reality is that we don't have anything that we wouldn't have without business. Does it increase the air time on internet and phone? Yes. Now would I as an accountant by trade advise clients to take it? Yes. But we just choose not to. Perhaps it's just because we don't want to think of our boat as business. Plus our taxes are complex enough as it is, we've just decided the complication isn't worth it in the overall picture. We have nothing on board that is all business, so we'd have to prove what percentage of air time was business and it's much too small a percentage for us to justify it. If it was the predominant use of our internet or phones then we'd do differently.

Still feel retired and we mostly are. Guess I have to admit I enjoy business, especially when it's something I do by choice and not because I have to.

MV Salish Lady · Mar 17, 2014

Electronics

ksanders said:
Exactly.

One of our challenges is that I'm working to eliminate our main server and pbx from the picture.

There are services that offer ms exchange compatible email, so that's where we're going.

As far as pbx services there are services for that as well.

We can use NAS as a storage solution.

This should make us server and pbx independant, but it's a process.

I am very interested in this area of working on board. We have planned a very complex wifi and data boosting plan for our new boat. Please let us know how you solve this problem.

Shawn

Jeffrey S · Mar 17, 2014

ActiveCaptain was designed, developed, marketed, promoted, and supported while living onboard over the last 7 years. We rarely sit in any one place for more than a few weeks and are continually moving around the different waterways and coastlines.

ksanders · Mar 17, 2014

MV Salish Lady said:
I am very interested in this area of working on board. We have planned a very complex wifi and data boosting plan for our new boat. Please let us know how you solve this problem.

Shawn

The first step you need to overcome is getting high speed internet to the boat from anywhere you might travel. This is the key to business continuity. In my professional opinion, using any sort of WIFI is not going to do the trick. You need an integrated solution involving both the Cellular system, and satellite services.

Then, assuming you have a high speed anywhere data connection...

Network solutions hosts my commercial web sites. You could use their (or others) Ms exchange email service. You can use any domain name and sign up for the service today.

As far as the pbx service thats somewhat of a challenge. The problem is latency. When connected to the cellular network my Cisco phone works great talking back to the Cisco Call Manager at the office. I'm going to try it over the satellite service tomorrow or Wednesday and will let you know. I'm concerned because I'm getting apptox 700MS ping times, which represents delay in the voice data stream.

I'm also concerned about bandwidth, because the satellite service runs about $1.00 a megabyte. Depending on the cash flow your business generates, this might be an issue, or it might not. If it works, I'll measure the bandwidth requirements and see if it works out for us cost wise.

Another problem I currently have is one number reachability. We have a 800 number that is the basis of client communications. Right now I have to go into our PBX and program call forwarding to the satellite phone number when we are out of cell range. That makes me married to the PBX.

If the satellite connection will support the Cisco phone, then the problem is solved. We'll just migrate away from our hardware based pbx to a virtual pbx, and connect to it using the cellular or the satellite, whichever is available.

FlyWright · Mar 18, 2014

ActiveCaptain said:
ActiveCaptain was designed, developed, marketed, promoted, and supported while living onboard over the last 7 years. We rarely sit in any one place for more than a few weeks and are continually moving around the different waterways and coastlines.

Who's not just a little jealous of that lifestyle! Sounds like a piece of heaven. But I gotta ask, Jeff...Are you moving of your own volition or are you getting kicked out of all these locales?

BandB · Mar 18, 2014

We are all so lucky to live in an age where working from home and then working from anywhere including our boats is possible. My wife, in addition to working with me, also puts in reading programs in various schools, orphanages and other facilities. She is able to keep check on progress from the water. Then when home she can visit on site. In some ways cruising has helped her programs as before they were completely dependent on her active involvement. This has led to training and empowering others and just mentoring and monitoring. Then, when we're home she gets to visit all the readers.

Moonstruck · Mar 18, 2014

I had at one time thought of retiring, but it doesn't look like it will happen soon. At 72 I still enjoy my work, but enjoy cruising as well. The solution is a fast cruiser to get where we want to go.

4G is enough for me although we have a WIFI booster with a 4' antennae for when there is faster available. We just down load and send document, drawing, and accounting files. With an added fold away desk in the side stateroom it converts to an office. A portable printer/scanner along with FEDEX overnight, and we are in business. I have closed out deals and performance bonds while cruising. The mobility is fantastic. Most of the time people I deal with have no idea we are cruising.

By the way downloading movies on NetFlix, and streaming music Makes for very nice living. Direct TV anywhere keeps us informed. Being born in the first half of the last century, I could never have imagined all this available while swinging on the hook in a remote anchorage. Life is good.

hmason · Mar 18, 2014

I work aboard running an medical publishing company. Our publications are online, subscription based. I should mention we are full time liveaboards. We travel the east coast predominantly. It took me awhile to sort out my needs to run the business and I will give some tips that might help others.
1. My employees all work from their virtual offices at home, it's easy to keep in touch via email/cell phone etc.
2. We use a Verizon jetpack for internet connectivity via 4G LTE where available and 3G when it's not available. I have never been without connectivity from Boston to southeast Florida.
3.We installed a Wilson cell phone signal booster which services our cell phones and jetpack.
4. We use laptop computers and a wireless all-in-one printer/scanner
5. For incoming business calls we use eVoice. This service answers all our calls, allows up to setup extensions, redirects calls to our virtual offices and takes voicemail messages. If I receive a message, the system sends a text to my cell phone telling me a message is waiting. For callers, it appears that there is a brick and mortar office.
6. For fax, we use eFax. Same company as eVoice and it sends and receives faxes from my computer or scanner.
7. One of my biggest dilemmas originally was how to send out 1,000's of pieces of hard mail. I found a company called mailXstream. It's an online service from which you download a software package that installs their remote printer to my computer. When I create a letter or a stack of invoices I simply select the mailXstream printer on my computer and everything prints at the mailXstream facility. They fold, place in envelopes and mail everything within 24 hours. I can produce a single invoice/letter or thousands in minutes. Their fees are actually less than it would cost me to do it myself.
8. For receiving mail I use a UPS store which gives me a street address. If we are cruising, I call the store and they tell me what mail is waiting. They will destroy what I don't want and then priority mail what I do want to my location for a fee of $2.50 plus the actual postage.

I have no interest in any of these companies. I sought them out over a period of time and they have proven to be 100% reliable. If you want to live the cruising life and work at the same time, it is very doable, if you are in the kind of business that does not require a fixed facility such as offices to see clients and/or a manufacturing facility.
Hope this helps others. Howard

Jeffrey S · Mar 18, 2014

FlyWright said:
Who's not just a little jealous of that lifestyle! Sounds like a piece of heaven. But I gotta ask, Jeff...Are you moving of your own volition or are you getting kicked out of all these locales?

We haven't been asked to leave yet...but give that some time!

Needless to say, internet access is pretty critical for us. I'm in the middle of installing a major new capability in eBoatCards; we send out about 100,000 newsletters a week; and we need low level access to our 4 servers - they're all in Dallas, TX on an internet backbone site; and all software development happens while onboard. We cruise between Maine and the Keys and have just completed the entire Great Loop. Over the last 2 years, we haven't gone a single night without adequate internet access, even anchored for a week in Bay Springs Lake, MS, where you have to travel 10 miles to get to "nowhere" - it's that remote. While on the Great Loop itself, we developed and released the eBoatCards website and finished/released the Companion app on Windows, OSX, Android, and iOS.

Through about 85% of actual on-the-water travel time, we also have connectivity. In general, one of us is piloting and one of us is doing website work while underway. Even on the major rivers like the Mississippi, Ohio, and Tennessee, we had no problem getting cellular access while underway (4G mostly).

Offshore, we typically get connectivity as far as 3-10 miles out. That depends on a lot of factors. We often do a couple of offshore, overnight jumps each season and rarely have connectivity through most of the night then. As an example, in January we jumped from Port St Joe on the Florida panhandle to Clearwater on the west coast of Florida. Through much of the night we were 60 nm offshore with no hope of reasonable internet access - we don't use satellite because the price is unreasonable IMO. But in those cases, there's too much attention needed by both of us so we're not working anyway (thankfully).

We haven't been to the Bahamas since our pre-ActiveCaptain days. We're planning on changing even that next winter. Although we have to pick our places carefully, I think we'll have good-enough connectivity for a couple of months in the islands for free/low-cost. At least that's the current plan.

Bottom line - anyone can run a business from their boat today while cruising along the east coast, the major rivers, and, I think, the Bahamas.

portager · Mar 18, 2014

ksanders said:
As far as the pbx service thats somewhat of a challenge. The problem is latency. When connected to the cellular network my Cisco phone works great talking back to the Cisco Call Manager at the office. I'm going to try it over the satellite service tomorrow or Wednesday and will let you know. I'm concerned because I'm getting apptox 700MS ping times, which represents delay in the voice data stream.

The round trip time (RTT) for an ACK is 1,000 to 1,400 msec (shore to ship and ship back to shore). Some systems can be set up to allow for this RTT and some can not. I set up ship to shore video conferencing system a few years ago and it took me a long time to find system that could be configured to work. We had a 500 kbps satellite link and the video quality was poor. The worst part was the person you were talking to would keep asking are you still there after you were responding. We had to tell people, "I'm talking via satellite so allow 2 seconds for my response." You get use to it after awhile, but ... It is a quick way to assess a person's learning curve though.

ksanders · Mar 18, 2014

hmason said:
I work aboard running an medical publishing company. Our publications are online, subscription based. I should mention we are full time liveaboards. We travel the east coast predominantly. It took me awhile to sort out my needs to run the business and I will give some tips that might help others.
1. My employees all work from their virtual offices at home, it's easy to keep in touch via email/cell phone etc.
2. We use a Verizon jetpack for internet connectivity via 4G LTE where available and 3G when it's not available. I have never been without connectivity from Boston to southeast Florida.
3.We installed a Wilson cell phone signal booster which services our cell phones and jetpack.
4. We use laptop computers and a wireless all-in-one printer/scanner
5. For incoming business calls we use eVoice. This service answers all our calls, allows up to setup extensions, redirects calls to our virtual offices and takes voicemail messages. If I receive a message, the system sends a text to my cell phone telling me a message is waiting. For callers, it appears that there is a brick and mortar office.
6. For fax, we use eFax. Same company as eVoice and it sends and receives faxes from my computer or scanner.
7. One of my biggest dilemmas originally was how to send out 1,000's of pieces of hard mail. I found a company called mailXstream. It's an online service from which you download a software package that installs their remote printer to my computer. When I create a letter or a stack of invoices I simply select the mailXstream printer on my computer and everything prints at the mailXstream facility. They fold, place in envelopes and mail everything within 24 hours. I can produce a single invoice/letter or thousands in minutes. Their fees are actually less than it would cost me to do it myself.
8. For receiving mail I use a UPS store which gives me a street address. If we are cruising, I call the store and they tell me what mail is waiting. They will destroy what I don't want and then priority mail what I do want to my location for a fee of $2.50 plus the actual postage.

I have no interest in any of these companies. I sought them out over a period of time and they have proven to be 100% reliable. If you want to live the cruising life and work at the same time, it is very doable, if you are in the kind of business that does not require a fixed facility such as offices to see clients and/or a manufacturing facility.
Hope this helps others. Howard

Great information, Thanks!

ksanders · Mar 18, 2014

portager said:
The round trip time (RTT) for an ACK is 1,000 to 1,400 msec (shore to ship and ship back to shore). Some systems can be set up to allow for this RTT and some can not. I set up ship to shore video conferencing system a few years ago and it took me a long time to find system that could be configured to work. We had a 500 kbps satellite link and the video quality was poor. The worst part was the person you were talking to would keep asking are you still there after you were responding. We had to tell people, "I'm talking via satellite so allow 2 seconds for my response." You get use to it after awhile, but ... It is a quick way to assess a person's learning curve though.

Thanks, I'll be doing some more testing this afternoon or in the morning and will let you know how it works out.

AKFish · Mar 18, 2014

voip over satellite

FYI...it's the variation in latency that causes most of the problems, not the latency itself. This is jitter and your Cisco equipment has a 150ms jitter buffer before the voice RTP information is lost and you get "clipped". I have set up many IP telelphony links over satellite, so it works...250ms up and 250ms down from the bird.

Also, setup times using 4G can suffer from a long delay as the cellular equipment (UE) negotiates required bandwidth with the cell site (eNB). So, even though the latency is substantially lower over terrestrial cellular, the long negotiation causes jitter buffer over runs and VoIP performance will suffer. It takes a minimum threshold of sustained bandwidth to keep this from happening during a VoIP call over 4G and your boat network. This is part of the 4G specification, as the eNB releases resources for other attached users and even with a full 64kbps codec (80kbps with framing) is so small, that the eNB will release resources, until your laptop tries to download some email. Voila, you have a jitter overrun even though you have substantial bandwidth.

Although I do work on board, my requirements are modest. I have elected to skip satellite voice and broadband because the costs are hard to justify. I just move towards cellular coverage for voice and broadband when necessary, only using satellites for simple messaging. If you how, just contact a marine operator for a voice call through VHF in a pinch.

I'm off to break / fix some more networks...Ken, let me know if my boat is still attached to the dock!

Captainjohn · Oct 22, 2014

My wife and I have been doing Boat Tours in Upstate New York for the last six years ( on a 25 foot pontoon) and are about to start our cruising life. We are buying a 36 foot PT Trawler and we are thinking of doing Boat Tours, Dinner Cruises and over nights as a business from the boat. I looked through this thread and did not see this anywhere. Do you think we could make this happen as we move around the great American Loop? The other issue I am having with this business plan is that my wife does not like the over-nights idea at all. (Even though there are two really nice and substantial state rooms.

Moonfish · Oct 22, 2014

Captainjohn said:
My wife and I have been doing Boat Tours in Upstate New York for the last six years ( on a 25 foot pontoon) and are about to start our cruising life. We are buying a 36 foot PT Trawler and we are thinking of doing Boat Tours, Dinner Cruises and over nights as a business from the boat. I looked through this thread and did not see this anywhere. Do you think we could make this happen as we move around the great American Loop? The other issue I am having with this business plan is that my wife does not like the over-nights idea at all. (Even though there are two really nice and substantial state rooms.

Probably the only way to have your wife like the overnight idea is to make it REALLY profitable. Market the Boat Tours and Dinner Cruises but just hint to "highly customized adventures". Then when someone asks, you know they're interested in more than just your standard offerings and might be more prepared to pay the extra dollars.

And if you only end up doing overnighters infrequently, it will be much easier on both of you. Because, as others will most likely attest, sharing a 36-foot double cabin trawler with a couple of "strangers" is going to make the boat smaller in a hurry... But, if it's just for one night and you're making a lot of money, it just might be worth it.

freelancer · Oct 22, 2014

Great information - In the near future I am planning on working on board. Internet would be needed for downloading and uploading large files - however ping is not a concern as much as data limits.

Do these satellite systems have a data cap? I've used directway (hughes net?) and it has a 1.5gig data cap.... which is USELESS for anything other than checking email.

I'd be curious to know if you ever hit the data caps, or "fair access policy" limits of the services, and how regularly.

THD · Oct 22, 2014

Cap't Jon-you might want to take a few minutes to peruse the USCG regs re boats for charter, inspections, certifications, etc. PRetty complex and can be expensive to meet requirements. And that is before we get to the requirements for a 6-pack license. It is not as easy as just advertising and finding business.

FF · Oct 23, 2014

>8. For receiving mail I use a UPS store which gives me a street address. If we are cruising, I call the store and they tell me what mail is waiting. They will destroy what I don't want and then priority mail what I do want to my location for a fee of $2.50 plus the actual postage.<

Really !! great tip.!!!

For a charter boat , not only the USCG will require a license for you endorsed for the many areas, the OTHER charter boats that work an area , and invest large sums in creating their traffic can get really nasty , with you eating their lunch.

I was partner in Bonny Blue which ran the Dismal Swamp as a scenic tour , over $70,000 for advertising each year , as a start, then you need permission from any dock that your customers will use.

Learn to cut hair , all cash , no hassles on the dock.

Learn to install and repair refrigeration or air cond , carry parts , all cash again.

BandB · Oct 23, 2014

FF said:
>8. For receiving mail I use a UPS store which gives me a street address. If we are cruising, I call the store and they tell me what mail is waiting. They will destroy what I don't want and then priority mail what I do want to my location for a fee of $2.50 plus the actual postage.<

Really !! great tip.!!!

I'd also suggest companies such as St. Brendan's Isle for that. They take the service a step further in scanning mail for you, keeping and sending what you want and dumping junk mail for you. We do not use them, but know many who do. We actually have someone at home who does the same for us. Then we are also very much electronic and anti-mail. We get no bills by mail and virtually no business correspondence. Mainly tax notices, license renewals and things of that nature.

St. Brendan's other service is helping one establish Florida residency. We have a home in Florida so no need for that either. There are similar services in some other tax friendly states.

Billylll · Oct 23, 2014

While I'm skeptical of GlobalStar check out their SatFi unit it supports up to 8 smartphones using their voice application. I'm not sure about their coverage. their old coverage was terrible but they have officially announced that the new satellites are all in place and operational. I always found a combination of cellular, WiFi and Sat service served me best when I worked from the boat. The sat service came in handy after 1 hurricane and a nasty Northeaster where the local cell service took days to be rebuilt and come back on line. I was using Fleet Broadband 150 service at the time and it was costly but not as costly s lost business.
Bill

BandB · Oct 23, 2014

Billylll said:
The sat service came in handy after 1 hurricane and a nasty Northeaster where the local cell service took days to be rebuilt and come back on line. I was using Fleet Broadband 150 service at the time and it was costly but not as costly s lost business.
Bill

You point out something we don't normally think of, the value of satellite service in the event of a disaster of some sort. I once dealt with a company that had a facility in a relatively small town in Colombia. Phone service was outrageously difficult to get and expensive. So they put in Satellite service. There was subsequently an earthquake and they were the only ones in town who could communicate outside. They actually became the communications center for the town. For those who had family working there it was priceless.

greatpapabear · Nov 28, 2014

An issue we had was that our boat insurance limits business meetings to two a month.

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