Ideas of boats nearest these specifications...

BandB said:

You just hit the other leading one on our list. The Grand Banks Aleutian 59. The only concern I have on Grand Banks is the health of the company itself.

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Isn't Hatteras done too? I thought they closed up shop a couple of months ago in New Bern and sold off assets to a company that was going to hack them up. I know Brunswick sold them last year and they laid off 150-ish people. I hope I am wrong.

Tom.B said:

Isn't Hatteras done too? I thought they closed up shop a couple of months ago in New Bern and sold off assets to a company that was going to hack them up. I know Brunswick sold them last year and they laid off 150-ish people. I hope I am wrong.

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Fortunately, you are wrong. Hatteras and Cabo were sold to an investment firm, Versa. It's a bit early to know how the changes will go. Brunswick had reduced to just a passive custodian and stripped the lines of both builders. There are definitely some new designs under way. A 70 MY is one I'm aware of and probably the first that will hit. Hatteras has also made some dealer network changes. I would think short term all will be ok. I would think the long term picture is to be determined. Versa could revitalize them. They could make no changes in which case things would continue to slide. Or they could do something disruptive. You never know with an acquisition. But certainly they bought intending to move the company forward. The word I've gotten from the streets, people who know and have talked to friends who work there, so far is very good and they feel upbeat. I hope that all continues.

It would be a shame to see Hatteras and Cabo fade. There is zero reason they can't be successful. We have successful US yacht builders and successful US sports fishing builders. If they are properly financed and get their act together, they should be.

BandB

Any further thoughts on the Fleming 58? Having been on F55s and 65s, the build quality and attention to detail was quite evident. If the new 58 hull design and improvements such as the mid cabin master and larger ER are appealing to you, it seems quite the vessel.

I saw one of the first GB 59s and felt the build quality less as compared to the Flemings. This was on the heels of walking away from the purchase of a used EU for similar reasons.

Don't overlook a one or two year old vessel. They do come along as buyer's remorse sets in. In many cases they are superior to a new vessel as the commissioning process has wrung out the gremlins and after factory equipment has been installed. Not to mention a savings of 30 to 40%.

Hatteras is doing more than OK. At the Miami show alone they closed on two more of their new 100' motor yachts (introduced last year, now up to hull #4) plus an 80MY and a 60 MY. They are introducing new modes such as the 70MY and the 70GT sport fisher. Among other boats at the FTL show they sold three of the 77' convertibles into the middle east. Dubai and that area have become such a good market they are at the Dubai boat show.

Viking is another make doing quite well, they dominate the production SF market now, admittedly a lot of that at Hatteras' expense but also Bertram. Three new Vikings became berthed at our marina in the past 18 months, 30 scant miles from the Hatteras plant. You go by the Viking facility in New Gretna and they are jamming. Reportedly they are getting back into the motor yacht building business themselves, having previously teamed with Princess in the recent past for MYs.


I know less about Marlowe, but by all appearances are thriving and expanding. Like wise, Lazzara. The larger custom builders in North Carolina such as Jarrett Bay, Spencer and Bayliss have backlogs. So it appears, at least, that the guys catering to the "top 5%" are doing ok.

sunchaser said:

BandB

Any further thoughts on the Fleming 58? Having been on F55s and 65s, the build quality and attention to detail was quite evident. If the new 58 hull design and improvements such as the mid cabin master and larger ER are appealing to you, it seems quite the vessel.

I saw one of the first GB 59s and felt the build quality less as compared to the Flemings. This was on the heels of walking away from the purchase of a used EU for similar reasons.

Don't overlook a one or two year old vessel. They do come along as buyer's remorse sets in. In many cases they are superior to a new vessel as the commissioning process has wrung out the gremlins and after factory equipment has been installed. Not to mention a savings of 30 to 40%.

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Our leaning right now is toward the Hatteras. However, we haven't researched or looked at the Fleming as much as we need to in order to finalize any decision. Simply the 58 didn't exist when we started looking. The Grand Banks Aleutian 59 is third, based more on uncertainty about the company than anything. Those are also they type issues that often end up reflected in quality.

caltexflanc said:

Hatteras is doing more than OK. At the Miami show alone they closed on two more of their new 100' motor yachts (introduced last year, now up to hull #4) plus an 80MY and a 60 MY. They are introducing new modes such as the 70MY and the 70GT sport fisher. Among other boats at the FTL show they sold three of the 77' convertibles into the middle east. Dubai and that area have become such a good market they are at the Dubai boat show.

Viking is another make doing quite well, they dominate the production SF market now, admittedly a lot of that at Hatteras' expense but also Bertram. Three new Vikings became berthed at our marina in the past 18 months, 30 scant miles from the Hatteras plant. You go by the Viking facility in New Gretna and they are jamming. Reportedly they are getting back into the motor yacht building business themselves, having previously teamed with Princess in the recent past for MYs.


I know less about Marlowe, but by all appearances are thriving and expanding. Like wise, Lazzara. The larger custom builders in North Carolina such as Jarrett Bay, Spencer and Bayliss have backlogs. So it appears, at least, that the guys catering to the "top 5%" are doing ok.

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Viking has introduced a 75' MY. I think their only problem is so much going on with the SF, hard to prioritize MY's. They built MY's until 2001.

Marlow seems to be concentrating more on the Mainship and Hunter lines than the larger Marlow's from what I have seen recently. They have made some revisions in their own line however, reducing the line, going to the E models only. I would think the reduction would be good. Just one of the things they are most proud of is always changing, each boat improved over the previous, I find somewhat disturbing as it keeps the target moving. But I haven't seen much activity in their boats.

As to Hatteras and the 100's, I think they have to prove they can deliver in a reasonable time. That's the problem when you have so many cutbacks, it's hard to gear back up. The first 100 took ages. Now that's not uncommon. Have you seen any update on #2?

B&B-I have followed the travails of Hatteras for many years. I lived in NC for a long time (the "TH" in my usename is for "Tarheel"). I knew members of the Slane family a long time ago and as a young guy spent a month as a mate on the original Hatterascal fished then by Wills Slane's son. They have always been very, very good boats and leaders in technology. One thing I really miss though on the new boats is the classic Jack Hargrave sheerline, both on SF's and MYs. You used to see a boat a half mile off and you could tell it was a Hatt. There is a 57' MY docked across from me and I still think the lines on it are beautiful as I walk down the dock.

Having been in the private investment business, I am never optimistic for a business when acquired by a private equity firm. Their MO just isn't operating businesses at a profit over an extended period of time (other than Buffet, Warren not Jimmy). I sincerely hope that Versa wants to own a successful and classic boatbuilder, not just hold an asset until it can "realize value from its investment". After the last 20 years, what Hatteras needs most is stability and consistency in management and operations.

I can ask someone there about the second 100. I am not sure what "ages" means, they introduced the new model about a year maybe two or so of the first one being launched and commissioned last summer. Some brave soul first had to buy one from the drawings. Then they customize it to his specs, then set about the huge task of building it. 100's aren't going to pop off the assembly line like donuts...

THD said:

B&B-I have followed the travails of Hatteras for many years. I lived in NC for a long time (the "TH" in my usename is for "Tarheel"). I knew members of the Slane family a long time ago and as a young guy spent a month as a mate on the original Hatterascal fished then by Wills Slane's son. They have always been very, very good boats and leaders in technology. One thing I really miss though on the new boats is the classic Jack Hargrave sheerline, both on SF's and MYs. You used to see a boat a half mile off and you could tell it was a Hatt. There is a 57' MY docked across from me and I still think the lines on it are beautiful as I walk down the dock.

Having been in the private investment business, I am never optimistic for a business when acquired by a private equity firm. Their MO just isn't operating businesses at a profit over an extended period of time (other than Buffet, Warren not Jimmy). I sincerely hope that Versa wants to own a successful and classic boatbuilder, not just hold an asset until it can "realize value from its investment". After the last 20 years, what Hatteras needs most is stability and consistency in management and operations.

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Yeah, those classic Hatts are beauties, aren't they? They didn't build a 57, so you must mean the fairest of them all, the 56!

They do seem to be making an attempt to be more distinctive and "classic" in the new models, witness the 100 and the new 70. I spent some time one afternoon circling around the new 100 on my Whaler when they took it on a sea trail to Cape Lookout, then got invited on board after chatting with the crew, one of whom had come out and knew me from my 56 he recognized anchored a little ways off. Pretty fabulous though I wasn't allowed to take interior pix. I thought the yacht looked good from almost all angles, albeit in a pretty modernistic way, but far from some of the hideous looking stuff that was built under Brunswick and GenMar ownership.

No it was NOT going uphill, I took this from the Whaler. They told me the tender on the swim platform was a temporary thing BTW.

THD said:

B&B-I have followed the travails of Hatteras for many years. I lived in NC for a long time (the "TH" in my usename is for "Tarheel"). I knew members of the Slane family a long time ago and as a young guy spent a month as a mate on the original Hatterascal fished then by Wills Slane's son. They have always been very, very good boats and leaders in technology. One thing I really miss though on the new boats is the classic Jack Hargrave sheerline, both on SF's and MYs. You used to see a boat a half mile off and you could tell it was a Hatt. There is a 57' MY docked across from me and I still think the lines on it are beautiful as I walk down the dock.

Having been in the private investment business, I am never optimistic for a business when acquired by a private equity firm. Their MO just isn't operating businesses at a profit over an extended period of time (other than Buffet, Warren not Jimmy). I sincerely hope that Versa wants to own a successful and classic boatbuilder, not just hold an asset until it can "realize value from its investment". After the last 20 years, what Hatteras needs most is stability and consistency in management and operations.

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I lived in NC for the first 41 1/2 years of my life, although not near the coast. But use to go deep sea fishing occasionally as we called it when a kid. Hatteras everywhere. Most of the charters were Hatteras. The gulf stream is so far off the NC coast and they often wanted to go there. I know people coming south are surprised how close it is in South Florida.

My observations of private equity firms are similar but right now they own quite a few boat builders and I expect that number to increase. However, I do not know how Versa works and what to expect. At least so far, the news from New Bern appears to be good. If it's an Invest/Grow/Sell then that's ok. It's the ones who Buy but don't invest that are not so good.

The one thing Hatteras does have going for them is the rather captive labor pool. A lot of skilled boat craftsmen in the New Bern area.

BnB-there are several issues that bode well for Hatteras and similar US builders that have the infrastructure and labor force. Chief among these is the fact that the cost differential between building in the US and offshore has decreased substantially over the last 15 or so years. 20 years ago, there was about a 35% differential between Taiwan and the US. That now is down in the 8-10% range. China is now the "cheap" producer, but that is changing as well. PAE (Norhavn) moved to China, Selene started in China (and suffered for 5 years or so as a labor force was built). Technology has lessened the labor component of boat building substantially. Hatteras was a leader in "modular" building, in using lightweight infused panels with veneers rather than solid wood among other innovations. As a greater % of production cost is in materials, the more even the cost is between US and offshore builders. US builders can be cost competitive, and more than quality competitive, with the Far East builders. As Hatt is learning as it moves to larger hulls, 100'+, its primary cost competition is from European builders, not the Far East. US builders can easily be cost competitive in that market.

BandB, you sound like a well connected industry insider give all your knowledge of the inner drama at these companies. Doing a little market research? Care to share a little more of your background?

THD said:

BnB-there are several issues that bode well for Hatteras and similar US builders that have the infrastructure and labor force. Chief among these is the fact that the cost differential between building in the US and offshore has decreased substantially over the last 15 or so years. 20 years ago, there was about a 35% differential between Taiwan and the US. That now is down in the 8-10% range. China is now the "cheap" producer, but that is changing as well. PAE (Norhavn) moved to China, Selene started in China (and suffered for 5 years or so as a labor force was built). Technology has lessened the labor component of boat building substantially. Hatteras was a leader in "modular" building, in using lightweight infused panels with veneers rather than solid wood among other innovations. As a greater % of production cost is in materials, the more even the cost is between US and offshore builders. US builders can be cost competitive, and more than quality competitive, with the Far East builders. As Hatt is learning as it moves to larger hulls, 100'+, its primary cost competition is from European builders, not the Far East. US builders can easily be cost competitive in that market.

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For sales in the US, the cost differential is virtually nil now. Even the 8-10% advantages you speak of are not the same build. A rule of thumb in all things: If it's light, China has huge advantages. Heavy, not so much. It's very simply the cost of freight and transport.

The leading yacht builders are Italy, Netherlands, Germany, UK and US. None of the top sellers above 80' are China. Going smaller, people certainly do not buy Krogen, Nordhavn or Grand Banks because of price. There are companies competing on price like Ocean Alexander, Cheoy Lee, Marlow. Notice Ocean Alexander decided to build their 120' in the US at Christiansen.

Now there are US manufacturers struggling like Trinity and Burger. But blaming it all on economy or other factors always bothers me. How do they explain Benetti and Sanlorenzo?

I wish there was a US builder of 35-60' Trawlers plus semi planing vessels. A US Grand Banks, for instance. Well, wish Grand Banks was in the US.

The other place a US builder should have an advantage is time from order to delivery. It's possible. Look at Westport and their deliveries.

I think Sea Ray returning to the larger sizes will be interesting. I wish they had more sedan bridges and hadn't moved the majority of that to Meridian. I think Carver would have a much larger share today if not for the debacle that Genmar turned out to be. Perfect size for many people. And cost isn't the issue. The Marquis side has flash and style but the Carver side has utility. I wouldn't underestimate Cruisers either.

I spent my career in industries where the US had more and more trouble competing but boats is not one of those industries it should happen in. How many runabouts do you see on the lakes from China? None. Now on smaller boats one can argue too much got tied to two companies, Brunswick and Genmar.

Well, I'm waiting for the Great American Trawler and Cruiser Company. Maybe one day.

twistedtree said:

BandB, you sound like a well connected industry insider give all your knowledge of the inner drama at these companies. Doing a little market research? Care to share a little more of your background?

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My background was industry, manufacturing. Final position was CEO. Fortunate enough to work for a company owned by the best investors there are. As to research, it's part of my nature. Always did it. Knew my competitors, suppliers, customers and always looking for ideas. So when I move to Fort Lauderdale and get ready to buy boats, it's only natural. Now my wife was a teacher, actually developed and implemented reading programs. She's the educated one with her Doctorate. Oh and if you called her Dr. she would be quite displeased. But we always would just get curious, hit the web and look up things.

I'll let her type a moment since she wants to say something.

Wifey B: My man's like totally freaking insane sometimes. OCD in a good way. He looks at a boat, researches the brand, then why isn't it doing better, then the company, then the investors, then the individuals, then follows them on the Singapore exchange. hehe. He's obsessed with a pursuit of knowledge and I think he corrupted me in that regard but I corrupted him other ways. But sometimes he doesn't realize he's wired so different and strangely, so special to me. It's just like if we're watching television and something comes up we don't know about, tablets out and google. Keeps things interesting. Funny man thought he'd retire completely. Well, he is mostly, but business is a hobby. Ok, now I've answered the question.

Hubby B: Guilty as charged.

Not too sure about your 80+ statement there. Ocean Alexander, Horizon, Hargrave, Offshore, the aforementioned Cheoy Lee, Marlowe, Nordhavn, OA (despite the Christensen deal) to name a few are all quite active in the 80+ production market. All Chinese or Taiwanese.

Agree the shift is towards America, witness the up tick Hatteras and others are seeing in that range. A lot of trawler types would love to see Hatteras revive the LRC line. Funny thing Lazzara, who has gone totally "Eurotrash" got their start building Gulfstars and subsequently the original Viking MYs.

caltexflanc said:

Not too sure about your 80+ statement there. Ocean Alexander, Horizon, Hargrave, Offshore, the aforementioned Cheoy Lee, Marlowe, Nordhavn, OA (despite the Christensen deal) to name a few are all quite active in the 80+ production market. All Chinese or Taiwanese.

Agree the shift is towards America, witness the up tick Hatteras and others are seeing in that range. A lot of trawler types would love to see Hatteras revive the LRC line. Funny thing Lazzara, who has gone totally "Eurotrash" got their start building Gulfstars and subsequently the original Viking MYs.

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Yes, they are active, but not even in the top group with Benetti, Sanlorenzo, Sunseeker, Westport in number or dollar value. Honestly I was surprised the first time I looked at a survey of sales by builder. Marlow and Nordhavn have sold very few 80+ and even fewer 100+. Now below 80, a lot of volume. Still can't believe Nordhavn killed the 47.

Yes, the LRC line was nice. But once companies move to the larger sizes they seem to move out of the smaller. The various 40's were well designed. I hate that Westport dropped the Pacific Mariner 65. Just another example. Add 164, drop 65. I'd love to see Hatteras with something under 60.

Oh and to show that US producers can compete, sure do dominate SF's.

Not saying one can't build successfully in China. Some have been at it a long time. Just saying it's not the cost advantage it is in other industries.

Bennetti? I don't think so. "Smaller" production guys like the Ferretti and Azimuth marques maybe. I'd be careful putting too much stock in some of the industry numbers. Plus keep in mind for the past few years a good deal of the action has been driven by Russians and Arabs, especially with the rise of the Emirates area as a major yachting center. It's a fun discussion, but that's all it really amounts to.

caltexflanc said:

Bennetti? I don't think so. "Smaller" production guys like the Ferretti and Azimuth marques maybe. I'd be careful putting too much stock in some of the industry numbers. Plus keep in mind for the past few years a good deal of the action has been driven by Russians and Arabs, especially with the rise of the Emirates area as a major yachting center. It's a fun discussion, but that's all it really amounts to.

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Don't forget all Benetti includes Azimut. So combined Benetti is actually number one. Last year for dollar volume in 80+ it was Benetti, Sanlorenzo, Ferretti, Princess, Sunseeker, Lurssen, Amels, Feadship, Overmarine, Gulf Craft. Benetti sold 79 boats over 80', Sanlorenzo 39, Ferretti 32, Princess 30, Sunseeker 26. The point is that Horizon was the leading Chinese builder with 16 in that range.

In total number of projects by country it was Italy 274, UK 71, Turkey 70, Netherlands 65, US 63, Taiwan 56, China 26.

Now I can't prove the accuracy of these numbers but they're not inconsistent with other surveys and I think they do clearly show how well Italy, the UK and the US can compete.

BandB said:

Don't forget all Benetti includes Azimut. So combined Benetti is actually number one. Last year for dollar volume in 80+ it was Benetti, Sanlorenzo, Ferretti, Princess, Sunseeker, Lurssen, Amels, Feadship, Overmarine, Gulf Craft. Benetti sold 79 boats over 80', Sanlorenzo 39, Ferretti 32, Princess 30, Sunseeker 26. The point is that Horizon was the leading Chinese builder with 16 in that range.

In total number of projects by country it was Italy 274, UK 71, Turkey 70, Netherlands 65, US 63, Taiwan 56, China 26.

Now I can't prove the accuracy of these numbers but they're not inconsistent with other surveys and I think they do clearly show how well Italy, the UK and the US can compete.

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In total I believe Ferretti is the world's largest boat builder. I guess in some way they're Chinese as they're owned by a Chinese company.