Getting Used to Fear

GonzoF1 wrote:

One question about anchoring and setting the tackle: When you back down, do you keep it just pulling on the windlass?

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It's not a good idea to put any strain on the windlass other than normal retrieval if you can avoid it.* We never set the anchor against the windlass, or even the bow pulpit.* I made up a short (15' maybe), heavy line with a chain hook on one end that we use to set the anchor against.* So our routine is to deploy the anchor and once it's down and the rode is paid out we put this short "snubber" on the chain and secure it to a deck cleat.* The we give a bit of slack with the windlass so the anchor rode is being held by the snubber and deck cleat, not the windlass.* We then set the anchor against the deck cleat.* Once we're satisfied the anchor is set, we remove the heavy snubber and install our regular long snubber bridle.

If we're only going to be anchored for a few hours we won't bother with the long snubber bridle ... we'll simply leave the heavy setting snubber in place.

To unset the anchor, if simply parking the boat over it with all the slack out of the chain doesn't work it out using the boat's movement, we'll put the heavy snubber back on and cleat it off, slack off the windlass a bit, and then give the boat a shot of reverse to* to unset the anchor with the heavy chain-hook snubber.* Again, the strain is being put on the deck cleat via the heavy snubber, not on the windlass.

*


-- Edited by Marin on Saturday 24th of April 2010 09:14:01 PM

I can't believe the bowsprit isn't designed to carry any load capable of holding the boat in place just as well as any cleats. My windlass (Vetus) has a gypsy pawl. Just a little lever that I flip to catch a tooth and relieve any tension on the gypsy. The catenary of the chain is more "snubber" than any length of line can provide.

-- Edited by surveyor1 on Saturday 24th of April 2010 09:57:14 PM

Yes Marin, I think you are being a little bit too nit-picky (over cautious - trying not to use anal,) there. The GB ( and any other decently built boat) bowsprit and winch should be more than capable of the little bit of tension required to dig an anchor, especially a decent quick-setting type anchor, such as you have. All that stuff about thick anchor-setting snubbers, the swapping to a lighter riding snubber, etc, is for those with old style anchors. That's all tooooo much trouble. However, GonzoF1, the main reason Marin is going to these lengths is because he has not yet adapted to, and gained enough faith in, the new anchor he has, (a Rocna if I remember correctly Marin), and is basing all he just said on that required to set a CQR/plough, Spade, Claw, or Bruce. That is why I suggested you get a Rocna (or here in Aussie, the equivalent is a Super Sarca, because these new quick-setting roll-over bar type anchors only need the barest weight of the boat drifting back really to set them. Maybe just the lightest bit of reverse in idle at most. Actually, what I like to do is what I think they call the yachtsmans' running set. You approach at idle towards where you want to set the anchor, downwind if possible, so the bows of other already at anchor are facing you. You then pull back to neutral, hit the down switch, Making sure everything is set to go and no safety snubber hooked on, hawse pipe cover off etc, and let her go, putting her hard over at the same time, then you just keep letting out till about enough rode is out, then stop, and let the momentum of the boat take up the slack, set the pick and turn the boat head to anchor spot all in the one manoeuvre, indicating it is indeed set. Works a treat as long as there is room. If not do it the traditional way, but with Rocna or Sarca there is no need for strong bursts in reverse....truly. You should try this Marin. No disrespect here - just not wanting to see a fellow boater bust a gut or waste time and effort unnecessarily. Worse still, not be reaping the benefit of the new anchor you paid good money for by over-complicating what now should be a really easy thing. Besides we don't want to scare our Gonzo any more than he is already.

"To help limit one of your concerns. You can check the % of amps left with a volt meter. This is how we did it in the old days before they made expensive fancy gauges. However, you do have to turn the charger and large amp draws off and let the battery bank rest for a couple of minutes."

OF course this technique " how we did it in the old days " is why folks would replace their batts annually in the old days.

The batt set must "rest" ( no load) for 10 to 24 hours before a hydrometer (temp compensated) or volt meter will work.

The old big scale Danforth voltage gauges were not even calibrated (tho pretty to look at).

The hydrometer with a log is OK but no where near the real instant charge and discharge information an E - meter will provide.

Backing down on an anchor is fine for a sailboat with reasonable sized engine + prop.

A simple rule of thumb is that 17K will produce 1 lb per sq ft of wind load.

SO the vessel BIG PIG if 20 ft wide and 20 ft high will be 400 sq ft of wind load , so 400 lbs of anchor load , 2X the wind speed . and its 4X the wind load.

But even 1600lbs is ZERO compared to what a 50,000lb boat backing will snatch the anchor with .

Most boats with a nice big efficient prop will produce between 20 and 25 lbs of thrust for every HP at the prop shaft.

Since the diesel gov will not let the engine die at our 6-71 idle of 400rpm is probably more idle thrust than that 32K breeze.

Even our 32x32 at (3-1reduction ) at idle will stretch a dock line enough to be scary!

The best way not to worry about the anchor dragging is TWO anchors.

The extra 5 min is worth the effort EVERY time.

Chain and washdown.
With a washdown system how much of a pain is an all chain rode coming off of a muddy bottom. Pull a little, wash it off? Pull some more and wash? The security of all chain would be great but with muddy bottoms like we have it's gonna get messy. Anybody dealing with that?

Simple washing is a very hard thing to do and actually get the chain clean enoiugh not to stink up the vessel.

There would seem to be 2 choices ,

a REAL wash down pump a 2 inch engine driven (100+gpm) Jabscoe that will actually give a chance of blasting ALL the mud away,

or a locker with a heavh spray that could be run for an hour or so after retreval that could flush the mud out an over sized drain.

A fast setting anchor certainly removes a lot of stress.

We used to have a CQR 60 (copy) and I was never confident that it was set. Quite rightly as it turned out on several occasions. It would plow on and eventually come to a*gentle stop.

Now we have a Delta 55 which sets instantly and will cause the windlass to creep (hydraulic) when backing down at idle.*There is*no doubt*any more. Idle revs should be more than enough to set the anchor - or even the wind if there's 10kn or more.

I am not a fan of two anchors, even in a blow.
I have tried this a couple of times and it's fine until another boat drags down and snags one or both of your anchors. Then you will spend the rest of the night, in a howling gale, trying to untangle the mess and not ding the topsides too*much.

A properly sized single anchor with an extra weight if necessary, like an anchor buddy, is much easier to manage.

Bigger is better and an all-chain rode is also a stress reliever.

However, I do agree with FF re the SOC meter, it takes the guess work out of battery management.

Cheers,

The advice I've gotten here in the past few days really helped keep my fear in check this Saturday as we explored Mott's Channel. I really didn't fret too much when we passed over some 7's and 8's crossing by some inlets and even the 4.5' we saw as we left the marina and low tide.

We did have a battery issue, although it wasn't due to anchoring out and running them down. She just wouldn't crank and I killed the battery in the process. So I just ordered one of these:
http://www.amazon.com/Jumpstart-990681-Jump-Carry-Starter/dp/B000JFJLP6 until I can get a good 8D starter battery and replace the welder's wire that currently wires (hey... a pun!) the starting system. I think I am losing a lot of usable amps in the wire.

Like I mentioned before, we are still going to wait to anchor out for our first time until we are closer to our home port. If something goes wrong, help is nearby and just a dinghy ride away. By then, I may get an amp meter to measure what we are pulling so I can more easily monitor it.

I am still not clear on if we can leave the chain thru the windlass as we set the anchor though. Sorry.

Peter, My wife has not concerns/worries because she knows I will worry enough, double/triple check thing and have back up for the back up.* I have mentioned before that we/I did not buy the big ugly trawler to take it out, but to be a dock condo in Seattle.* I am perfectly happy being tied to the dock, and like the live aboard live style.* Besides we use our boat 24/7 365 days, so there is not need/pressure to take it out.


*
Another big factor for the first 10+ years my best friend, a maintenance mechanic who taught me a lot about the Eagle went with me/us 90%.* However, his new wife does not like boating so now I sort of lost my best friend and mechanic.* )-;* I have not weenied myself off or found a substitute for Pat. *If Pat goes I am ready to leave the dock, if Pat does not go its very hard to get me to leave the dock.* It is really nice to have another set of eyes, hears, and hands that you trust.*


*
As far as measuring the amps with a volt meter, you do not have to wait that long to get a reasonable reading. **As long as there was no big amp draw and the charger is turned off.**Besides is you sort of know the amp draw you can estimate very closely what amps have been used, and occationally you can go between 50% and 25%.*

["I am still not clear on if we can leave the chain thru the windlass as we set the anchor though. Sorry."]

Gonzo, please read my last post again..and consider that anchor...in short, yes, you should be able to. It does not need to be a stump-pulling effort.

".in short, yes, you should be able to. It does not need to be a stump-pulling effort."



However the chance that you could back down far too hard for the windlass to handle is real.

When anchoring the deck claw which should be able to hold the boat in extreme conditions only takes a second to flip in., to have Zero load on the windlass.

After the boat stops from the set anchor ,another 30 ft of chain with a 15 ft LIGHT nylon snubber can be released.

I personally do not leave the load on the windlass. If you have nylon, then cleat off the anchor line. If you have all chain, use a snubber or a jury rigged one like Marin has. There is no reason to put extra load on the hardware if you don't have to. And like FF said, something can go wrong if that is all you are relying on...risk management...remember????

If you don't have room for a deck or pulpit mounted chain grabber or you have combo rode then get ahold of a chain GRAB hook and a piece of line secured to it, 20 or 30' . Use triple lay nylon rope for best shock absorbtion. When you are on all chain then attach the GRAB hook to the chain and tie off the rope to your sampson post or heavy anchoring cleat to take the load off the windlass shaft. GRAB hooks must be purchased for the size of the chain. They can be pretty, S.S., or galvanized. Use two for a bridle effect if you wish.

The line should be the same size or bigger than the anchor line if you have chain/rope rode.

I've seen windlass shafts bent or clutches damaged from overload unless your windlass is made to handle the load, usually not, so secure the load off the windlass. For that reason, when backing down to set the anchor do it slowly so you don't jerk the boat to a stop but put a load on it slowly and as evenly as possible.




-- Edited by C lectric on Monday 26th of April 2010 11:38:04 AM

We have a snubber already rigged. Chain hook and a Y-shaped rig that goes out to each of the bow cleats. It's just kind of a bitch to deploy and you really only want to do it once. So that why I was asking about setting it with the windlass.

There is another little do-hickey that currently is just kind os a safety rig to keep the chain from falling off while underway. I don't suppose that it can hold much weight.

Let me see if I can attach a pic for you guys to see my anchor tackle. Hang on a sec...




So just starboard of the windlass is the thingy in question. It's really just a threaded bolt into that galvanized plate that holds the chain... Anyway, I bet I already know the answer to that question, but I'd like an overall assessment of the rig too. Skinny Dippin' weighs 19,000 displacement pounds. That is a 35# generic CQR.


-- Edited by GonzoF1 on Monday 26th of April 2010 05:04:39 PM

Oh... What is a good battery health gauge? Any trouble to install myself? (I do have mad maintenance skilz!)

There are several on the market, Link make one and I use a Cruz Pro VAH 110.

It monitors voltage of up to three banks and measures current draw on the house batts, *provides Amp hours remaining and % remaining. Positioned in the pilot house but with a nice big LCD display, so easily read from the saloon.*

The installation is really simple as is the calibration and all the instructions are provided. Just a matter of deciding where to mount it, and running wires from your DC switchboard (for voltage) and from your shunt (supplied) in the battery box (for current and amphours).

Allow a couple of hours for the complete instal.

GonzoF1 wrote:

We have a snubber already rigged. Chain hook and a Y-shaped rig that goes out to each of the bow cleats. It's just kind of a bitch to deploy and you really only want to do it once. So that why I was asking about setting it with the windlass.

There is another little do-hickey that currently is just kind os a safety rig to keep the chain from falling off while underway. I don't suppose that it can hold much weight.

Let me see if I can attach a pic for you guys to see my anchor tackle. Hang on a sec...

So just starboard of the windlass is the thingy in question. It's really just a threaded bolt into that galvanized plate that holds the chain... Anyway, I bet I already know the answer to that question, but I'd like an overall assessment of the rig too. Skinny Dippin' weighs 19,000 displacement pounds. That is a 35# generic CQR.


-- Edited by GonzoF1 on Monday 26th of April 2010 05:04:39 PM

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don't pull on the chain stopper, just rig a short line with a chain hook and attach it to the Sampson post and set the hook that way

*

Can a Sampson Post stand that kind of pressure?

Peter B wrote:If not do it the traditional way, but with Rocna or Sarca there is no need for strong bursts in reverse....truly.

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We don't use strong bursts, we use idle power.* The recommended method to set the Rocna was described to me over the phone by one of the folks at Rocna in New Zealand.* Figuring they probably had a notion of the best method to set their anchor, we followed their advice after we bought one.* I'm sure there are other setting methods that will work equally well but Rocna's advice has not let us down yet.

The strength of a bow pulpit varies with the make and model of the boat, and possibly with age if it can affect fastener condition.* I've seen the pulpit break on a relatively modern production boat when the owner tried to use the boat's power to free a hung-up anchor.* I have also read accounts of and seen photos of windlasses that were pulled partway or all the way out of a deck by having too much strain put on them.* And I've read numerous accounts on various forums over the years of windlasses that had gear teeth stripped and other failures from having too-high strains put on them.

Our use of a short heavy snubber to set the anchor against and to un-set it if it is reluctant to come out takes only moments to rig and eliminates the potential risk of overstraining the pulpit's 37-year-old fastners and the windlass.* They may be able to take much more pressure than I give them credit for.* I don't know.* But I don't want to find out by having something break when I can eliminate the risk entirely by using a setting snubber and* a deck cleat.* The extra 15 seconds it takes to rig the snubber is well worth the elimination of the potential to damage a $4,000 windlass installation.

GonzoF1 wrote:

Can a Sampson Post stand that kind of pressure?

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If it's a true Sampson post, yes it can.* That's what it's intended for.* A true Sampson post generally runs all the way down to the keel or some other primary structural member in the boat's hull and is one of the strongest structural components of the boat.* There are also Sampson posts that are through-bolted to heavy back plates under the deck.* And there are "decorative" Sampson posts that are bolted to a pulpit or other deck-mounted structure.* So just because something is called a "Sampson post" does not automatically mean it can take a high degree of pressure.* It will depend on its construction and method of attachment to the boat.

Here's an old wreck in the Napa River, California.* The samson post is the only thing left....

Someone could use a good buffing.

Here's a little beauty I found down the bayou on Louisiana, Highway 1, on the way to Grand Isle. I never did see the samson post.

Hey Carey,
When did you make it to Louisiana?
Boy, it looks like we may get a serious oil slick down there. Maybe they can get it to burn off.
BTW Giggitoni,
that does look to be a properly installed Samson post.

I think one thing I need to do is make a single snubber line that can just loop over the Sampson post, run thru the bow sprit, and on to a chain hook. Our current one, like I said before, is a bit of a pain to deploy and not practical to help set an anchor. Being able to have a simple hook that the First Mate can easily hook on and off of the chain to fully set and anchor seems like it would be a huge plus. It could also work good as a lunch hook for times where fully setting and anchor may not be necessary.

Yes? No?

*EDIT* Going back to my picture of my bow on the previous page, I wonder if this is reall a good idea. The windlass is in direct line with the post and I don't see a way to do what I described above... Hmmmmmmm

-- Edited by GonzoF1 on Thursday 29th of April 2010 08:07:41 AM

No, that's quite a good idea Gonzo - pretty much what I do for most anchoring actually. Just run the snubbing line over the rope rode side of the windlass. I'm not totally convinced that having such a long snubber like some do, with a huge loop of chain dangling below it, is all that necessary for 90% of normal over-nighting - especially as the weather forecasts these days are pretty reliable such that being caught out in the night with an unforecasted blow would be fairly unusual.* After all, with decent weight all chain rode, there is a large amount of snatch damping there already.* Anyway, what if....it just means dashing out with a decent flashlight, maybe in a raincoat, and being a bit uncomfortable for a few minutes while you deploy the 'storm' snubber.

-- Edited by Peter B on Friday 30th of April 2010 07:05:52 AM

Peter B wrote:

No, that's quite a good idea Gonzo - pretty much what I do for most anchoring actually. Just run the snubbing line over the rope rode side of the windlass. I'm not totally convinced that having such a long snubber like some do, with a huge loop of chain dangling below it, is all that necessary for 90% of normal over-nighting - especially as the weather forecasts these days are pretty reliable such that being caught out in the night with an unforecasted blow would be fairly unusual.* After all, with decent weight all chain rode, there is a large amount of snatch damping there already.* Anyway, what if....it just means dashing out with a decent flashlight, maybe in a raincoat, and being a bit uncomfortable for a few minutes while you deploy the 'storm' snubber.

-- Edited by Peter B on Friday 30th of April 2010 07:05:52 AM

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The point in adding additional measures like a bridle is to keep from "dashing out with a decent flashlightin the middle of the night".* If you are concerned about your overnight comfort why not run either a single snubber line ( real easy ) or a snubber bridle ( a little tougher but more stable ) and drop an additional 15' of chain to give it stretch room?????.* Unless you have a manual windless the additional 15 seconds will not even cramp your thumb as you push the windless switch!.
The only real unknown for me regarding anchoring is what condition the bottom is, or what might be on the bottom to foul your anchor and cause it to drag or not set correctly. Both of these are mitigated when we pull back to set the hook under power.
When we used to do our boating in cal. we did a lot of anchoring in very tight coves where you set both a bow and stern hook, we usually were pretty cramped for space with other boats. I would drop over the side and check all the anchors around us to ensure a good nights sleep. I never seased to be shocked how many anchors were improperly set and were holding just because of the pile of chain dropped on top of the hook!.

*

Questions:

What route should the single-snubber line I want to use take to get by/around/over the windlass?

How do you know what the bottom is made of before you drop anchor?

For our anchor bridle I use*the *rope/line for towing our run about.* The shackle is tied mid way on a 25 ft line, run thru the two line chocks in each side of the bow, and then cleat to the Samson Post making a V.** That way the line does not go over the windless or pull the*chain to one side.*We mostly use it for towing the run about*as the V keeps the run about centered be hind boat.* Since we very seldom anchor, it has to be good for something?******

Getting over the fear is all about time spent on the water. You get to know how*your boat*feels taking a following sea.*How she rolls and heel when the waves are coming off the aft port quarter. She talks to you as you listen to the engine(s)

Think of it. You park the car and head down the ramp to the float. You walk along looking at other boats, dodging the bow pulpits and the deck boxes along the*way. Then you see her. Your eyes take in her lines you catalog everything out of place. That line is not tight. Those two snaps have come undone again.* there is that little scuff you have been meaning to take care of.
*It's ok she is beautiful. You step off the dock and feel her roll to*take you on.*It's like she is welcoming you on. You open the*door and step inside. *You smell her perfume A little salt a little sweet a little sour. She's ready for you . You check her fluids and turn the key. She comes to life under you hands. You hear and feel that first rumble as she springs to life and then that comfortable vibration as the idle settle out. She's ready to go you can almost feel her straining at the dock lines.
You cast off and slip her into gear.* Out past the break wall. You throttle up a bit and feel her dig in as she takes*those first waves.* *As she warms she sings to you.**You feel the throb and sway as she responds to the wheel. She's a fine lady and you're *the skipper. The adventure *begins. If you've treated her right, She'll take you where ever you want to go and home safe again.*
Fear not my friend all things will come to you with time spent*and water moving under her keel.

SD
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