Boat Buying Power!

mahal said:

If i was in this unfortunate situation (will likely happen when i'm old and can't take risks with $), I would definitely pay cash for a boat. It wouldn't make any sense at all to finance.

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I can agree with this ...

Art said:

That’s my take on why it is OK for spending money to own a Pleasure Boat, and, just how “overall” inexpensive it is to own one. Cause – If you took each of the 18 reasons I listed and put dollar $$$ costs next to each one... well then... the true-value of what owning a boat actually accomplishes becomes greatly enhanced!

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I don't think we disagree with this at all ... after all, most here have a Pleasure Boat that might be "free and clear" or not yet. The pleasure and the real or perceived add-on value of owning a boat is a driver for the decision to own the boat. Makes us feel better, makes us live better life, or at least we think so ... and it's okay to spend money on a boat ... if one does it responsibly, within the means, no matter how rich or not the one is.

Let's go ...

boatpoker said:

I do third party appraisals on repossessed boats for all the banks here in Ontario. That part of my business has been booming for the last five years.
All those people buying boats that they could not pay cash for have contributed greatly to my income .... keep it up

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Don't hold your breath. I own my boat free and clear, but I may finance my next boat if at that time my ROI is still greater than the interest on boat loans. And it will not be repossessed because the loan will be just a small fraction of what I have. If for some reason the bank calls the loan, I'll pay it off. No need to be sleepless about it. Not all people that finance boats are irresponsible. I know many boaters and have never heard of any of them losing their boats to the bank. I'm sure it happens, but to a small percentage of borrowers. Boating should be a hobby for those with a decent amount of disposable income already and not for those that push the limit and live beyond their means. I believe in being pragmatic when shopping for a boat and one should also be pragmatic in deciding how to pay for it. There is no one answer.

Here is my 2 cents.

My wife and I have been planning on buying a new vessel which we have the cash to do. The new vessel's base price is over 4 mil that we want. By time it is all said an done the cost of the New vessel would be little over 5. mil with the outfitting that we would want done to her.

As of late, I have been watching a used vessel (The same brand) that is outfitted with about 75% of the items we would want on our vessel.

The cost of the used vessel is about 2 mil. (which I know I can get the price down to about 1.5 mil or so)

In looking at the cost of upgrading this used vessel to our full specs. (some of the upgrades) New power plants, New trans, Some New Nav systems and some interior, the total cost would be around 600k on the high side.

So with that said, the used vessel with a new systems on her total cost would be around 2.1 mil. That is a big savings over buying a new vessel.

In 10 to 15 year will we get our cash back out of the used vessel. NO WAY! Would we get our cash back if we bought the new vessel. NO WAY!

So it comes down to this for us. We can buy new and spend 5mil or buy used and spend 2.1 mil. I think that speaks for itself. 3 mil in savings from the jump, gives us that much more cash to cruise on and to enjoy life that much more.

I do understand each case is different when is comes to buying a vessel but in this market the larger used vessels are not selling so for us, going with used is the better way. In a good market? Well I think I would have to rethink it!

Just my 2 cents

Happy cruising.

H. Foster

Hfoster,

You bring up an interesting perspective in the class of boat, (Yacht) you are looking at. Because in this market, as I understand it, the yachts in that high price range are selling, new. The middle class range of boats are sitting on the market, new and used, without much activity in sales. However, in the high end range of yachts there are people waiting for the manufacturer to complete the yacht for delivery.

I agree with your assessment for your situation and it sounds like you are moving toward the smart way to purchase your next yacht.

So, what is going on in your price range? What is the difference between your perspective and what seems to be going on in the higher range yacht buying world?

Interesting...

BTW- Nordhavn states on their website that they see the market recovering to the extent they are starting to build the smaller boats(yachts) again. Of course, Nordhavn "small yachts" are still in the $750,000-$1,000,000 range.

Are they just trying to fuel some sales or do you think they really have an accurate pulse on the market?

Randall B said:

Hfoster,

You bring up an interesting perspective in the class of boat, (Yacht) you are looking at. Because in this market, as I understand it, the yachts in that high price range are selling, new. The middle class range of boats are sitting on the market, new and used, without much activity in sales. However, in the high end range of yachts there are people waiting for the manufacturer to complete the yacht for delivery.

I agree with your assessment for your situation and it sounds like you are moving toward the smart way to purchase your next yacht.

So, what is going on in your price range? What is the difference between your perspective and what seems to be going on in the higher range yacht buying world?

Interesting...

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Randall.

I have been watching the larger vessel market for well over a year now. As you said, the used mid range Yachts are not selling that well. The mid range (yachts) that I have been watching are from 65' up to 90'.

My wife and I want our vessel length to be around 70 to 78 feet. So we are in the range that is not selling to well compared to the smaller vessels that are on the market. (below 50')

I have been seeing prices drop and drop over the pass few months (a drop of about 200K on the prices) at a time on any given vessel. The vessel I have been watching for us stated our at 2.25 Mil when I first seen it and now it is down to 1.925 Mil. I believe this vessel will drop down to about 1.7 mil or so, if not lower.

Once it hits that price, I will go and take a hard look at it, and if it is good shape, I will make an offer on it.

I also believe the market is going to take another hard down turn within this year and I am also sure by the end of 2016 the boat market as a whole will take a hard hit as well.

As far as boat builders selling new vessels? I am sure they are but the last report I read (2013) on new builds reported a drop of 28% on mid range yachts. Now do not confuse these reports on gross sales. That is up due to fact they are charging higher prices on new vessels to keep their profits up.

You are also right that boat builders are pushing 50 to 60 footers. Their lager range vessel have not been selling nor have they been getting orders for them.

I can name a few different companies that are show new 50 to 58 ranges vessels at boat shows this year. 2 of the top of my head at NH and Fleming. I'm guessing they seen the market turning some time ago and put their chips on smaller vessels.

That is my thoughts anyways.

Happy cruising

H. Foster

Just because a boat is used doesn't mean it is not a good boat.

Ideally if you can find a boat that the previous owner sunk a lot of time and money into and for health reasons or just up and died. You can have a boat that is every bit as good as a new one.

There are plenty of boats on this site that I would love to get my hands on.
:lol:
How is everyone feeling these days.

SD

skipperdude said:

Just because a boat is used doesn't mean it is not a good boat.

Ideally if you can find a boat that the previous owner sunk a lot of time and money into and for health reasons or just up and died. You can have a boat that is every bit as good as a new one.

There are plenty of boats on this site that I would love to get my hands on.
:lol:
How is everyone feeling these days.

SD

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Howdy SD - How are your making it, since... Well I pray!

Anyway, I have this to say bout pleasure boats and their owners:

- We only buy a pleasure boat caus WE WANT TO!

- That boat becomes our baby... one way or the other!

- If a person wants out of boating just sell it; take a loss if necessary.

- If a person wants to stay in boating do what you must and enjoy every second!

Happy Boat Ownen Daze! - Art

Doing good Art.
A little better every day.
Thanks for asking.

SD

SaltyDog said:

Saving for a boat consumes youth.

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The other side of that coin is that you may never get out of debt and will have to continue working until the day you die.

Somehow you have to find a balance.

WesK said:

The other side of that coin is that you may never get out of debt and will have to continue working until the day you die.

Somehow you have to find a balance.

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I plan on it. An object in motion stays in motion.

If you stop you rust.:lol:

SD

Hfoster,

As always, I guess there are a many variables in the boat market. And the sales figures can be skewed based on volume of sales in relation to $$ vs number of boats. A single 30M boat is going to skew the market if looking at $$ sales.

I see similar things happening with investment property. In Seattle there are several large development projects underway at the same time many older buildings with vacant space. Of course, real estate has different factors involved.

But it is interesting to see a general pulse of buying and selling habits and factors that relate across several areas; real estate to boats to clothing to coffee.

And I know that a persons perspective changes in relation to their buying power. Be it cash or credit ability.

I appreciate your feedback and perspective on these things.

See ya,

FF said:

The USCG rules for inspected vessels require a 400% hull margin , which basically translates to a stiff enough structure that it doesnt flex.

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Which rules are those? A CFR? ABS? Lloyds? A NVIC?

Speaking of boat prices...



If you’d like to follow an international bidding war for a nice looking 1986 Heritage NOVA 40' Sundeck Trawler...



NO RESERVE - Low Hours Perkins Turbo Twin Diesel

Bids continue into 1/26/14!

http://www.ebay.com/itm/141170277738?ru=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ebay.com%2Fsch%2Fi.html%3F_sacat%3D0%26_from%3DR40%26_nkw%3D141170277738%26_rdc%3D1#ht_12982wt_14856


Currently top bid is around $32K


How high do you think bids will go? My guess is in the $60 to $70K range... but cha never know - because, a bidding war can cerate it's own energy! Therefore $100K is not out of the question!!

What is a "hull margin" anyway? What is 100 percent of one?

I thought it might be fun to own one but there aren't any on ebay and I can't find any new ones either.

For a boat licensed to carry over 6 , the plans have to be submitted for inspection by the USCG.

The boat being built will be visited by the USCG at times , and on a GRP boat theu take pieces from the scrap pile , as well as require a piece of hull cut off before their Eyes.

Not a NA , so have no idea how they figure their % numbers , just know we were happy with the 425% they deemed we had and the acceptable burn raste for the Hetron FR resin.

And no our 90/90 does not flex or wiggle falling off a wave.

Are you talking about percentage of flexural failure strain applied or ???

I don't mean to be argumentative but the standards for material strength of a hull and deck can vary from a safety factor of 1.5 to 10 and those numbers apply to any and all materials including wood and high tensile steel.

Generally, a hull is rated with a material safety factor of 4, many if not most metal hulls are around 4 to 6, so maybe that is where you got the number but throwing that number out without some kind of explanation doesn't tell a reader anything and isn't a particularly high standard ... it's kind of like saying a car has to have brakes.

The number the USCG uses doesnt matter , what does matter is FLEXING.

A boat hull is NOT a fishing pole and hull flexing caused long term damage.

Usually gel coat cracks near steps show the first sign of an under built hull.

FF said:

The number the USCG uses doesnt matter , what does matter is FLEXING..

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Then why keep posting that number as if it is one of boatbuilding's ten commandments?

Any little boat can be built stiff enough to be cantilevered off its rudder post and not bend but there is little point in doing that. Like airplane wings, a little flexing keeps other things from breaking in a bad way ... the objective is to keep the flexing within the material limits.

Sorta like working out in a gym... If you can't flex a little the mirror - What's The Point!?!? - LOL

Bottom line for boats: All material items flex to a certain point; too much flexing can be VERY bad!

Art said:

Speaking of boat prices...



If you’d like to follow an international bidding war for a nice looking 1986 Heritage NOVA 40' Sundeck Trawler...



NO RESERVE - Low Hours Perkins Turbo Twin Diesel

Bids continue into 1/26/14!

http://www.ebay.com/itm/141170277738?ru=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ebay.com%2Fsch%2Fi.html%3F_sacat%3D0%26_from%3DR40%26_nkw%3D141170277738%26_rdc%3D1#ht_12982wt_14856


Currently top bid is around $32K


How high do you think bids will go? My guess is in the $60 to $70K range... but cha never know - because, a bidding war can cerate it's own energy! Therefore $100K is not out of the question!!

Click to expand...

Sold for $48,988.88 Someone got a good deal.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/14117027773...R40&_nkw=141170277738&_rdc=1#ht_12982wt_14856

Every watch helo rotor blades in flight? You would never fly in one if you didn't trust a lot of engineers and maintenance people....Even the aluminum/nomex honeycomb from the Korean War years look like spaghetti (back in the good old days when things were overbuilt supposedly)

Flexing is factored in usually at some point by a competent designer....so yes there's a tradeoff usually with service life...just like the boats engine and every system on board....even solid state electronics have a service life based on some sort of cycle my son in IT likes to baffle me with...

Look at suspension bridges...OK so don't look at the video of the Tacoma Narrow Bridge failure...but hopefully you get my point......dang if I remember what it is now....