2015 New Willard Trawler 36

Again, IMHO...

Coot and other new boats of this nature are fine examples of how-to/where-to purchase extremely nice and relatively affordable examples of "Trawler" inspired cruisers for the pleasure boating community. And, I agree with CP that Coots' sturdy material provides a good level of economy during building.

However, as sc implies in post # 28 and I refer to in post #26... boat purchasing market is awash in tens of thousands good condition and visually/emotionally/cruiseably attractive second hand pleasure crafts that hold decades of usefulness still in their bones and that come stocked with a plethora of expensive as well as general-use equipment aboard - at many X less cost than any new-boat/new-equipment can provide at today's manufacturing/sales costs.

As Tad mentions in Post # 23... "It's going to be really hard to convince folks to pay more and go slower. The Swift T 34 was priced at $390k, now they are down below $350k and saying "please call for current pricing".....Beneteau is losing money on each of these....small builders can't compete.

As psn mentions in post # 34 ... "And the used boat market is killing all but the top tier."

As RB, the OP to this thread (2015 New Willard Trawler 36) clearly concludes/mentions and ends his post # 25, with a form of a good bye... "I agree, the 36' would not be a profitable venture in this market and the cost of the build today. And as we still have the W40 for cruising, I'm in no rush to jump into a "sinking ship". See ya,"

Basically it will take years (decades) of simply “TIME” before enough of the currently good condition pleasure cruisers will meet their makers in Boat Heaven for the used-boat heard to downsize amply and then create real need and desire by the general boating community (middle of the road people) to again build a fire under mid range pleasure boat building. Of course the top tier of real wealth will probably always keep many of the very expensive super yacht builders afloat!

Sooo... if we look at mid range (30’ to 65’) pleasure boating as a whole... Buy Used; cause ya just can’t beat da deals currently on the market!


Happy Boaten Daze! - Art

The problem is with a $500,000 boat , it must IMPRESS the friends of the purchaser.

There is so little difference in cookie interiors that there is little that is impressive.

BIG is impressive , so the folks with 1/2 a new buck will frequently opt for larger , and with loads of helm room to have electric gadgets strewn about.

Crossing oceans in a 40 ft boat is far easier in a well found sail boat.

The used market is of little interest to those that can afford new , as new has status , used is used.

CPseudonym said:

Completely missed in this thread so far is there currently is a 35' full displacement boat on the market. The Seahorse Marine Coot. Why spend $500k on the new Willard 36 when I can pay $350k for a Coot? The steel Coot avoids the problem with building molds.

There's only been 6 Coot's launched of the 8 built that I'm aware of. I'm fairly sure Seahorse would be willing to deal on the two shells built a couple years ago awaiting finish in their yard right now.

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Interesting steel hull Vinette waiting for the project minded...might have good bones if it's been full time fresh water, which many of them are. Looks like it even has a pilot house. I'm very familiar with their 36...nice sturdy boats.

1979 Vinette 43 Trawler Power Boat For Sale - www.yachtworld.com

skidgear said:

Interesting steel hull Vinette waiting for the project minded...might have good bones if it's been full time fresh water, which many of them are. Looks like it even has a pilot house. I'm very familiar with their 36...nice sturdy boats.

1979 Vinette 43 Trawler Power Boat For Sale - www.yachtworld.com

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Well, at least they staged it to show nicely. I thought the full ash tray and bucket by the bed were nice touches.

Art said:

Again, IMHO...

Coot and other new boats of this nature are fine examples of how-to/where-to purchase extremely nice and relatively affordable examples of "Trawler" inspired cruisers for the pleasure boating community. ...

However, as sc implies in post # 28 and I refer to in post #26... boat purchasing market is awash in tens of thousands good condition and visually/emotionally/cruiseably attractive second hand pleasure crafts that hold decades of usefulness still in their bones ...

Sooo... if we look at mid range (30’ to 65’) pleasure boating as a whole... Buy Used; cause ya just can’t beat da deals currently on the market!
Happy Boaten Daze!

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I suppose this makes me an anomaly.

Isn't the American Tug 365 still available for purchase new? How many are they selling?

Moonstruck said:

Well, at least they staged it to show nicely. I thought the full ash tray and bucket by the bed were nice touches.

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If they showed it nicely, it's unlikely the price would be where it is. As I said earlier, it depends on the bones. But it looks like a variant on a displacement hull if that's what floats one's boat. Someone mentioned pilot house, and someone else mentioned a project boat....well there it is in one ratty package. Good looking profile in any case..

markpierce said:

I suppose this makes me an anomaly.

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No, that makes you the previous owner of my next boat

skidgear said:

If they showed it nicely, it's unlikely the price would be where it is. As I said earlier, it depends on the bones. But it looks like a variant on a displacement hull if that's what floats one's boat. Someone mentioned pilot house, and someone else mentioned a project boat....well there it is in one ratty looking package. I'd bet the Vinette yard, which is still in business, would even convert that thing to a single for a reasonable cost. Good looking profile to boot...

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Not knowing diddly bout its build-out quality nor bottom design... I can tell that seems to represent a mid sized seafaring craft with personality and general top side designs I appreciate and would not at all mind owning! Heck Mark might even like this one - sans FB of course... - LOL

markpierce said:

I suppose this makes me an anomaly.

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Mark - What would ever make you think That??? Stand proud my man, and, congrats on being different than most!! It's All Good!!!

Art said:

Not knowing diddly bout its build-out quality nor bottom design... I can tell that seems to represent a mid sized seafaring craft with personality and general top side designs I appreciate and would not at all mind owning! Heck Mark might even like this one - sans FB of course... - LOL

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Just for grins, I called the Vinette Boat Works for some background. T.D. Vinette's son explained that the boat is one of 17 built in the 43' series. They view it as a displacement+ hull shape...closer to displacement than the semi-displacement grouping. We didn't get to the quarter beam buttock stage.

The boat was originally purchased as a bare hull/cabin structure by a gent who subsequently had a heart attack and died while working on the interior. T.D. Vinette's brother- in-law then purchased the boat and had it hauled back to the Vinette yard to have the engines fitted. He then hired his own carpenter to finish it out....hence the one-off single stateroom where the original design had two S/Rs forward. The second carpenter survived. I asked if he thought the boat might be haunted...he said he didn't know for sure.

The boat has done the loop several times, but Mr. Vinette thought the hull was still solid from what he knew about the boat. "Regardless, it's easy to cut out any bad sections and weld in new metal", says he. He said he's had many calls from interested buyers. You want the history of a boat you're interested in purchasing...buy a Vinette.

markpierce said:

I suppose this makes me an anomaly.

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Then I'm also an anomaly right there with you Mark.

(BTW, I believe American Tug is selling about 10-12 new boats a year, from what they told me when I was there about a year ago).

I see what looks like a chine crease fwd and nothing speaks of FD except for possibly her convex/curved stem. Looks a bit like a sailboat because of it. But I'll bet she's a fairly typical SD hull.


Re the W36 if there was a cabin configuration I liked I would probably have one. There was a W36 available for $65K and I was strongly considering pursuing it but the very high pilothouse put me off that course. The view from up there is great though. Stabilizers just makes a boat too complex and takes it out of the "handy" category that I seem to need.

But re marketing/selling one now a lower pilothouse w good visibility may move more boats. The W36 is a FULL disp boat making no pretenses at being SD at all so is very speed restricted, however being longer than my W30 is is a bit faster. If the space on board was designed wisely and balanced toward interior space It's hard to imagine one finding it lacking in that regard as it's a big 36' boat.

manyboats said:

I see what looks like a chine crease fwd and nothing speaks of FD except for possibly her convex/curved stem. Looks a bit like a sailboat because of it. But I'll bet she's a fairly typical SD hull.

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Here are some photos of a Vinette 36 flat out at about 8-9 mph. We couldn't see evidence of lift happening....seems to be sinking deeper in the water. Yeah, it's probably got some SD goin' on, but not very much. And this boat has a nice easy roll reversal unlike most hard chine SD. The bottom doesn't look all the different from the Coot from what I can tell, and the at-speed photos I've seen of the Coot look very much like this boat. In any case, it's a very nice riding and handling boat. This one has a single Cummins. By the way, T.D. Vinette built many sailboats in their day, and still do one here and there.

Skidgear, looks to me you're driving the boat too hard: it is "sinking" as you pointed out. Dropping one or two knots would greatly reduce fuel consumption. (No doubt you know that.) If my 80-h.p. JD 4045 was turbocharged, I could duplicate your photos with the Coot.

markpierce said:

Skidgear, looks to me you're driving the boat too hard: it is "sinking" as you pointed out. Dropping one or two knots would greatly reduce fuel consumption. (No doubt you know that.) If my 80-h.p. JD 4045 was turbocharged, I could duplicate your photos with the Coot.

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Yes, we were purposely pushing the hull to see how it would react. Believe the boat has a 1964 vintage 160 HP NA Cummins. The Vinette is brother-in-law's boat. I was on the chase boat taking photos and making notes. Long trip with nothing else to do. He normally runs it well below what's depicted in the photos. Love the ride and heavy weather characteristics of that boat.

manyboats said:

...

But re marketing/selling one now a lower pilothouse w good visibility may move more boats. The W36 is a FULL disp boat making no pretenses at being SD at all so is very speed restricted, however being longer than my W30 is is a bit faster. If the space on board was designed wisely and balanced toward interior space It's hard to imagine one finding it lacking in that regard as it's a big 36' boat.

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Greater beam will increase interior space despite limited length. "Fat boy" Coot has a 13-foot beam despite it's 35'8" hull so a decent walkaround deck doesn't cramp the interior.

Moonstruck said:

Well, at least they staged it to show nicely. I thought the full ash tray and bucket by the bed were nice touches.

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Don: The trouble with you is that you have no appreciation for rugged, masculine individualism!

Thanks to the original poster, by the way, for presenting the thread just as he did. It sparks a lot of enthusiastic feedback with so many good points. Ted (OC Diver) and I had the opportunity to discuss the thread over dinner. It's nice to have a TF member around to throw those ideas into the pot.

I won't bother to review the great points, but I have to concur that big boat-maker marketing certainly has side-stepped the full displacement design. If one is serious about blue water cruising, the limited alternatives like KK, Nordhavn, Diesel Duck and custom builders seem to be there to take care of business for a price. Meanwhile, the power-boat charter companies, especially in the Caribbean, are funding a whole new generations of spacious catamarans that feature FD economy at slow speeds with 20 knots available. What is marketing and resort-type cruising teaching the retiring baby boomers about boating? I'd love to be listening-in on the board room meetings of outfits like Beneteau.

I don't know where we're headed, but I'd bet that the price of fuel will have a lot to do with it, even if it's not the most significant boat expense. Even then, we'd need to get rid of the glut of used opportunities out there now.

skidgear said:

Interesting steel hull Vinette waiting for the project minded...might have good bones if it's been full time fresh water, which many of them are. Looks like it even has a pilot house. I'm very familiar with their 36...nice sturdy boats.

1979 Vinette 43 Trawler Power Boat For Sale - www.yachtworld.com

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Rat Rods and rat bikes are all the rage now. Why not a "rat boat"? It's got that natural "patina" people seek. If the thing runs, I say, just buy and use it. Add to the patina. Where somebody will make the mistake is instead of just buying and going-they'll start doing restoration work, and will likely never finish, nor go anywhere. Riverbend Boat Yard in Ft. Lauderdale used to be full of big sailing boat projects and I watched guys go from skinny young long hair dudes to fat balding old men STILL working on "getting the boat ready", and they never went anywhere other than to that boatyard year after year after year. New Yard owner ended up cutting up and disposing of many of them when he decided to "wash out the old".
There's a Yard up in Labelle and Ft. Pierce with boats of similar ilk right now-where boats go to die.
I bought a 50' 1928 Trumpy sailboat back in 83 (the Summer of Tanqueray I called it) that I found in a boatyard in Tarpon Springs. A total POS (fir over oak with iron nails-in Florida!)the yard said, but I had a Greek Yard there put a couple of planks and ribs in her, along with a 12v refigerator..the boatyard said "that's all we're going to do, I wouldn't take my family out in her is all I can say, good luck but GOODBYE" after only a week in the yard. Sailed her off. Her spirit came alive!!! She sailed and sailed, FAST, never did anymore work to her other than when her engine broke down in Marco Island, and a old timer realized it was a old WWII motor from a Jeep in her, and eradicated that one last demon, and all was good. I played with her for a year, sold her to a local coke dealer in Miami, HE played with her for awhile, and years later I was coming back from the Bahamas and saw the old girl with a bunch of old guys wearing orange PFDs heading out the cut. I asked "hey, where you going?" MAINE was the answer.
Yep she was alive, but one could also spent a "forever" making her nice and she probably would had eventually died an old maid in a yard somewhere like the boats at Riverbend.

Very well said, Pilothouse King. I'm embarrassed to admit that my boat was ready to go cruising when I bought it three years ago, and now, thanks to my incessant projects, is not.

:lol::lol::lol:

healhustler said:

Very well said, Pilothouse King. I'm embarrassed to admit that my boat was ready to go cruising when I bought it three years ago, and now, thanks to my incessant projects, is not.

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:lol::lol::lol:

One indication that the Vinette's not FD is that she's got twice as much power as a FD boat that size would require. And the wake shown would require 160hp to make. However if her aft end is like Mark's Coot it is indeed a FD craft. As before I suspect that she's SD like most all trawlers. Here's Willy at full power and it can be seen she's only throwing about 25% as much wake and her wake at the stern is very different.

FD SD whatever I sure like the boat. I like the GB and 32 NT too and if I had either would want to change the shape of the stern and ditch half the power.

Yo, Ladies and Gents...

The trick is to get a used (maybe even a "classic") boat at a great price that is already in really good condition because either the PO (maybe even the OO) kept her totally maintained. Or, such a boat in good condition because someone else already burned themselves out on during restoration/improvements over the last couple/few years; then they simply got spun-out for one reason or another and decided/needed to sell.

These affordable, very good condition used boats are not always easy to locate... but they do exist and via careful search/research techniques I can find one if I really desire to. Additionally, the purchase of such a boat does help their seller by taking it off their hands - cause they either really want to, or really need to sell.

It would take a whole new thread to review what steps need be taken to locate a boat such as described above. The phases/steps/research proceedures/techniques for gaining success in this type boat purchase agenda are in a world unto themselves. Basis of procedure: 1. Patience / 2. Persistence / 3. Marine-Knowledge / 4. Good Attitude / 5. Work! Oh yeah, and did I mention PATIENCE?? Cause, if you’re lucky it will take a short time, or if you’re almost as lucky it may take years... one way or the other you are actually just as lucky when you find and purchase The Correct Boat!

Otherwise... ya can always pull out the ol’ check book and purchase a Brand New Good Brand Boat. But, I suggest, DON’T purchase a $$Money$$ Sink Hole “old tub of a craft” that needs ongoing repairs and upgrades... forever – It could/would eat you alive!!

Happy Boating Daze! - Art

manyboats said:

One indication that the Vinette's not FD is that she's got twice as much power as a FD boat that size would require. And the wake shown would require 160hp to make. However if her aft end is like Mark's Coot it is indeed a FD craft. As before I suspect that she's SD like most all trawlers. Here's Willy at full power and it can be seen she's only throwing about 25% as much wake and her wake at the stern is very different.

FD SD whatever I sure like the boat. I like the GB and 32 NT too and if I had either would want to change the shape of the stern and ditch half the power.

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Yes, the boat has a huge excess of installed power. Big engine room...fuel was free in 1964...probably bought it at some kind of a deal...who knows. But our little experiment showed what happens when it's applied. The hull digs a hole, throws a huge wake, and hits a speed wall. Those are not characteristics of a typical semi-planing hull. The manufacturer says it's displacement. Our little test showed it sure acts like one. Whatever....here's a photo of the boat at normal cruise power.

The Coot, easily driven at 6+ knots:

Very well said, Pilothouse King. I'm embarrassed to admit that my boat was ready to go cruising when I bought it three years ago, and now, thanks to my incessant projects, is not.



Boating as a hobby is very inclusive , messing around in boats can be as much fun as actually using the boat to travel.

ENJOY,

Skidgear,
The Vinette may be digging a hole as you say but the boat is not squatting at all. I see her running quite level in your pics. That indicates to me that the after plane of the hull is most likely horizontal (or nearly so) and probably quite flat. She may even have trim tabs deployed. And those hull characteristics are not elements of a FD hull. It's almost certain that the transom is down 6" or more into the water.

The above is merely a good guess and it could be a FD hull after all but I seriously doubt it. Hull photos will be needed for confirmation.

Lots and lots of trawler owners think their boat is FD but in actuality very few are. Most all sailboats are FD but not trawlers.

Cheoy Lee 46 LRC wake at 7 kts, our typical cruising speed. She's definitely FD!

Man sometimes you guys can beat a dead horse so much the damn thing comes back to life... only so you can beat it to death again!

Full displacement.. semi displacement who cares! for most of us the way we use our boats it will not matter squat! My new to me Ocean Alex is a "semi displacement" hull that is overpowered according to some here.. 40' x 270hp @ 2700rpm. It will do 11+ kts on a good day going down hill @ the throttle stop. Since it was sold to me with full tanks I don't know what it carries for fuel... but I do know @ 1600/1700 rpm where I feel it is in it's sweet spot it goes 8.3-4 kts and uses so little fuel I DONT CARE.
Most SD hulls when ran conservatively burn close to the same rate as the same length FD hull.... but typically have a lot more interior space and do not roll like a pig when a nearby seagull farts.
As for economy... I got my well equipped (except for the electronics package that must have been bought second hand from Noah) 40' two stateroom Europa "trawler" for under $ 40k... the previous owner paid $ 121,000 in 2007 and I have receipts for $ 66k of improvements done since 2007. There are deals on boats out there.

I plan to run the boat to at least Mexico in the future and possibly further South then East. My boating hobby as to fit into the life budget I have that includes flying, motorcycles, cars, keeping the Admiral happy with other travels.

I don't think I have been happier all around on a boat because of what this one can do vs. the cost of the boat. Volunteer was totally a FD boat that did 7.8-9 kts @ 2.4 gph but the cost of ownership was much greater and the Admiral didn't really like the boat.

Personally you couldn't give me a FD ( round bilge ) boat unless it had the as some here feel " too complicated" stabilizers.. either passive or active. And I still want at least 30%-50% more power at hand than is needed to run the thing to hull speed.

My personal rant is now complete.

HOLLYWOOD

HollyWood - Perf!!