Do you really need a lower helm?

I am looking at a 40' Nova Sundeck. The boat does not have a lower helm. What are y'alls thoughts on this. Would it be a major mistake to buy without a lower helm. The only reason I am considering it is it is a good deal. Thanks

I would buy without a lower helm on the right deal, but I love having ours. On cold mornings when traveling it is the greatest thing in the world. We don't have isinglass, which is ok with a lower helm.

Steve,

What size engines and mpg do you get on your Present 42? I have looked at the Presents on Yachtworld. I really like the layout and looks of the Present.

Thanks

Charles

Depends on where you boat and how you use your boat. We never run our boat from the upper helm. Neither I nor my wife like the sight picture from up there as far as operating the boat is concerned--- we feel much more connected to the boat from the lower helm and find it much easier to judge close-in maneuvers like docking from the lower helm than from up above. Plus we can hear and smell what's going on in the engine room and electronics consol, something that most likely prevented a fire several years ago.

We boat year round and in the winter the flying bridge is not somewhere one wants to be unless it's enclosed and heated.

But if one boated in a warmer climate and liked the sight picture from up top, the chances are they would run the boat all the time from up there so a lower helm would be of little value. The big sportfishermen did away with them altogether quite awhile ago.

Personally, my favorite boat configuration is the pilothouse--- Krogen, Victory Tug, De Fever, Fleming, etc. The pilothouse gives you some elevation if you like that but it's out of the weather. Plus many pilothouse designs incorporate a flying bridge if you like the option of driving in the open when the weather permits.

Charles,
We have twin Lehman 135's. Recently we moved her from Mississippi to Texas and I ran a constant 1600 RPM's- the first time I have run at a lower speed for that long. We would range in speed from about 7.7 - 9.5 MPH depending on the current and wind. I used a LOT less fuel than I thought I would. I estimate about 160-180 gallons for about 400 miles.

A lot depends on the area, climate and your kind of boating.* We have a pilot house with no upper helm and found we do not miss having an upper helm.* Especially, in the colder/cooler PNW, early morning cruises, and the straits open to the Pacific Ocean.* I prefer a lower helm over an upper helm as its nice to be in a protercted heated or AC pilot house, close to the crew/passengers, the head and the engine room.* **


*
So my question is do you really need an upper helm?

A lower helm in many cases defines the interior layout of the boat. Without this option the manufacturer can design the interior living area without the need *to*accommodate*the helm, a nice advantage. However for those operating in inclement or cold weather, a lower helm may be necessary.*

Some designers in late model boats have become very creative in designing a lower helm, but reducing it's impact on the rest of the interior of the boat.

In FL I see no need for a lower helm which takes up valuable space.
Like everything else in choosing a boat there are compromises which must be considered depending on how you use the boat.



Another perhaps creative solution appeared in a 35' boat currently for sale. The owner installed a RV roof mounted type*A/C unit on the roof of the fly-bridge. With the enclosed fly-bridge you can cruise in air conditioned comfort, as long as you don't mind running the gen-set all the time. Looks dumb but probably works.

I do think this it is relative to many things.....mainly the size of the boat. Marin digs his lower helm because he has a 36ft GB....he has nose and forehead smears on his window because his face is practically smashed against the window while he is driving. When you drive the bigger sundecks, many times you have a galley/dinette between the helm and the window...which decreases your viewing angle significantly. You are practically driving from the middle of the salo(o)n. Add to it the sheer of the boat sloping up(ie the anchor/roller interfering with the center of your field of vision) and your view down below almost becomes useless.

If you have a flybridge that is fully enclosed by eisenglass, then weather should not be an issue if there is any sort of sun(obviously not the case in the PNW). The Sun definitely causes a greenhouse effect and keeps it plenty warm.

To answer your question, the lack of a lower helm would not bother me one bit. I have had a trawler with a lower helm and used it extensively. But I would view it as a luxury and not a necessity. If the deal is right, I would not let it stop from buying it. I would simply put an autopilot control head down below so I could operate the boat from there while in "unobstructed cruise"....IOW generally out of the way of anything while I was making a sandwich or running down there to use the facilities.

ce_smith wrote:

I am looking at a 40' Nova Sundeck. The boat does not have a lower helm. What are y'alls thoughts on this. Would it be a major mistake to buy without a lower helm. The only reason I am considering it is it is a good deal. Thanks

Click to expand...

As one or two others said, why would you want an upper helm?* I have both - but it I had to chose, I'd go for the lower, and we live in a place where we can boat all year round, yet I still regard the upper helm as a strictly fair weather - know exactly where you are and what bottom you are over type of steering position, for all the reasons Marin mentioned, and some.* For a start, one generally installs the best and latest electronics down below to keep it out of the weather and more easily adjusted/read/reliable, etc.* But most of all, and this no-one mentioned - weight up top in a seaway is best kept down, and more to the point in rough weather the height magnifies the roll movement horribly, and it can then even be dangerous trying to get down to the lower helm.
The exceptions would be the large, semi-planing boats with fully enclosed flybridges, internal stairs down, and which maintain stability in a seaway by virtue of their speed and size.* Eg Riviera/Hampton/Horizon... 50 ft & up,*and larger kind of stuff.* Who affords those...?* Mainly folk who never venture out anyway, they just party on them.


*

If you buy a roomairan with no lower helm , it can easily be overcome.

Many of the new autopilots have remotes wired or wireless

so with a ENGINE KILL switch below you could handle it from the Barcalounger .

I should have mentioned that the boat is a 40' sundeck. It will have isenglass on the flybridge and we will keep the boat in Madisonville, La. I bought* a slip there a couple of months ago. Will mainly cruise on the panhandle of Florida and Alabama.
I see that everyone has their opinion and each has valid points. The boat does not have autopilot, but I sure was planning on getting one, so the remote is a great idea.

The remote would be ok in some situations, but in a seaway when it's rough, the time when most of all one would want to be down, I don't think I would like to be down there, relying totally on a remotely controlled upper helm, but that's just me.

I'm with Marin, to a point. Our lower helm (DF*48)*is where the social action is when cooking and chart reading etc. Also in snotty weather the lower helm has much less movement. Our upper helm is totally enclosed and can easily accomodate a footrall team, so in plus 40 degree weather it is comfortable. It also has a dayberth! The upper helm access from below is totally enclosed so one does not get wet. On a GB like Marin's, accessing the upper helm can be a wet trip.

On a sundeck model, the better deals are with no lower helm because they are not in as much demand.

It's interesting to see the varied replies to this question. Clearly a "different strokes" kind of issue.

We have upper and lower helms, and while I usually prefer the flybridge for visibility both underway and while docking, we don't have a full enclosure up there and with wind/rain/choppy seas it's nice to go below. When the weather's nice being higher up makes the Mate happy, esp in the Ditch -- she never liked being in the cockpit of our old sailboat where she couldn't see much.

I recently installed a second chartplotter on the lower helm so I have redundant GPS, engine controls, radio, compass, etc at both stations. The autopilot works only from the upper helm but the conditions which would drive me below pretty much make my old wheel-pilot unusable anyway. Also the radar repeater is only hooked up at the lower helm.

If you end up single handing, without a lower helm, you won't be able to go to the head or get something from the fridge without stopping the boat and going below. With a lower helm, on autopilot, at 8 knots, you have plenty of time to do either, between checking for logs, crap floats or other boats.

I don't think I would like to be down there, relying totally on a remotely controlled upper helm,

At least a boat AP will do as you ask,

unlike the AP in the Airbust that may simply decide to over ride your commands.

Got caught in a bad lightning storm about a month ago; quite a bad feeling being the tallest, metal object for miles around on Lake Ponchartrain. Had her all buttoned up and was praying that Mr. Ferriday was correct in his theory (Ferriday Cage). I guess he was; I'm still here, as is my boat. Don't have an upper helm and don't think I want one.
Mike
Baton Rouge

Mike,

Where do you keep your boat? I bought a slip in Madisonville last month. As I already said, everybody keeps bringing up great points about no lower helm. Makes my head swim.

Charles

Charles:
My slip is on the Blood River, Vacajun Marina, south of Springfield. About an hour from Baton Rouge.
Mike

Mike,

I have lived in Louisiana all my life and never heard of the Blood River. Of course I am a Yankee since I live up*in West Monroe. But we do have family land down in Placamine Parish. Used to have a family*orange grove until Katrina. In fact, I just finished a meeting with my brothers and we talked about how we heard that the fishing is better than it ever has been. Lots of Red fish. My slip may be availble for a while if you would like to be futher south. It is on the Tchfunchie River.

Charles

My boat has upper and lower helms with redundant electronics. I steer from above 99% of the time but when the it gets rainy, rough, or cold I use the lower helm. Crossing the Gulf from the panhandle to or from the West coast of Fl. is an overnight trip, you might want to do that some time. I find the lower helm useful when my wife takes watches I can take a nap on the setee and am right there for a question or problem.
Steve Willett
Thibodaux Louisiana
Home port Houma
Currently anchored in Little Sarasota Bay, Fl. on to St Petersburg tomorrow

Steve,

It is nice to here Louisiana guys out there. I have read a lot of your posts. I think I have about decided to not make a run at the Nova without the lower helm after hearing so many opinions. Hope your having fun down there. Think about us poor guys who can't be out there.

I have a 40' Nova Sundeck and single hand a lot.
A lower helm is essential ONLY if there's a door next to the lower helm, otherwise, it's wasted redundancy. Some bigger boats i.e. Ponderosa, do not have the lower helm door.

surveyor1 wrote:A lower helm is essential ONLY if there's a door next to the lower helm, otherwise, it's wasted redundancy.

Click to expand...

I would strongly agree with this.* While my wife and I prefer the sight picture from lower on the boat than from the flying bridge, a big advantage of the lower helm is the ability to step out the door right*next to it and be on deck to assist with whatever needs assisting with.* We don't single-hand the boat, but even with two people aboard there are times when one of us gets onto the dock with the first line but then the next lines need to be gotten ashore very quickly before the wind or current (usually wind) blows us somewhere we don't want to be.* Being able to zip right*out to the foredeck from the helm station is a big advantage.

The early GB36s had a door on each side of the cabin next to the helm station.* For access this was probably great but the port door made for a less-than-ideal main cabin configuration so the port door was soon dropped.* The GB32, on the other hand, has no side access to the lower helm station at all--- the ony way in and out of the main cabin is through the rear door to the aft deck.* Not the ideal arrangement to my way of thinking.

*

Lower Helm - YES

Galley Down - YES

El Sea/L.C.

"Suckin Sludge & Havin a Gas"

I use my lower helm I'd say 70% of the time and that is increasing. I agree the door beside the helm is critical. Often cruising with door open is much like the upper helm just with no excessive wind and no need for sunscreen except on one side of your head.* In the off months the lower is a must, engine heater is blowing and there are no conditions that it's not warm and toasty down there. The big plus for the upper is 360 view and quiet. In the end it would be hard to do without either but if I had just one it would be the lower for the all weather comfort.

Charles:
What is that pink dotted rowboat in your picture? Pretty cool looking. Blood River feeds into the Tickfaw River which empties into Lake Maurepas which empties into Lake Ponchartrain. Unless you have*a Hurricane Ike which blows everything upstream.**
Mike

-- Edited by Gulf Comanche on Thursday 1st of April 2010 10:52:55 PM

-- Edited by Gulf Comanche on Thursday 1st of April 2010 10:59:43 PM

Mike---

Speaking of what kind of boat is that, what kind of boat is yours? From your avatar it looks like a very robust design, "skookum" as they say up in this neck of the woods.

Steve,

We were in*our Hurricane deckboat cruising down the ICW just west of Perdido Key last year and here was this guy in a thong rowing across the ICW that was fairly wide. Luckily, our friend had her DSLR camera with her so we started snapping pics. The guy never looked at us and just kept rowing. There were two dogs on his boat and one just looked embarrassed to be on that boat. Later we were riding around in the car and found a minature version of his boat and oars by some apartments. I got out and went up and found a bunch of different*sayings written on the boat. He must have lived somewhere around there and had friends who made*the little version out there as a tribute to that austere gentlemen! I thought about sending the pic into National Geographic and say that I shot a picture of a*Papau New Guinea*native on his way to pick up his new bride on another island.

We have a upper helm, and a lower with doors on both sides, I really like using the upper helm when backing into my slip. The perspective view is great as I can see the pointy end real well and I can see the stern corners unobstructed. When we had our GB36 I found out the hard way that you really need to have engine start ability at the upper helm also... I had fiddled with the idle speed to slow the boat while transiting the no wake zone in the marina... made the turn to final into the slip a little to hot... dropped it in reverse while going forward a little fast... engine died while going warp 9 ( you think trawlers are slow..... have the engine die while going ahead while pointed at the dock... seemed like we where flying that day! ) Anyhow.. I did a grab the flybridge edge, drop over the side to the side deck, duck through the side door move that is still spoken about at the Yacht Club in reverence!. Of course Murphy always makes this kind of thing happen on something like.. opening day when EVERYBODY is in the Marina. The GB went full astern about 1 foot from the dock. All I can say is I am glad it was the "light" grand banks not my current trawler as the GB would stop in a dime.
I think a upper helm is a great asset, nice on those days that its sunny and warm ( I know my fellow boaters here in Washington are scoffing right now) And a necessity when navigating in shallow water
my $2 worth
LD