Biggest Boat for Single Handing

ranger42c said:

I think your stern line used this way is partially acting as a spring, anyway?

-Chris

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Yes, technically you are correct. But it's a really short spring line!

Here's are two other single-hand considerations.

1. Autopilot: Don't leave the dock without one! I use mine all of the time, especially when I'm taking in, or putting out lines and fenders.

2. My galley is on the same level as the helm, and I have good visibility in all directions. With the autopilot, I can easily wash breakfast dishes after an early start, or fix lunch on a longer run.

I single hand 99.9% of the time. I am on the Great Loop and with 4,000 miles, over 100 locks, and 100 or so dockings and many anchorages behind me I have a few thoughts.

As always, how and where you use the boat maters. If you have a home dock that you use regularly, then the dock can be set up to make your life easier which makes a larger boat more practical. If you live in an area with limited locks that too makes a larger boat more practical.

Traveling the way I do, my requirements were (and still are);
No larger than 40 feet, my boat is 36'.
Doors on both sides of the cabin.
Walk around decks, all on one level.
The ability to move sideways, twins or at least one thruster (mine has a stern thruster and I like it).
Upper and lower helms.

I have length of the boat lines on all four corners, 24 foot mid lines and enough fenders for both sides. I never know until the last minute which side of a lock or dock I will be on.

I find that my Marine Trader 36 is both comfortable and manageable.

Best of luck and have fun,
Arch

>I have length of the boat lines on all four corners,<

A line at the bow that can not go overboard and NOT reach the prop might be long enough.

FF,
Shorter lines make great sense for most situations. I agree that lines that don't reach the prop would bring peace of mind.

Traveling the way I do, the longer lines work better for me. Single handing through locks, docking to barges, canal walls, etc brings special challenges. I have been down to the bitter end many times.

So, again, it depends on where and how the boat is used. My comment was intended to point out that a single hander often doesn't have the luxury of swapping lines and fenders around like a crewed boat does.

Thanks,
Arch

Arch said:

I single hand 99.9% of the time. I am on the Great Loop and with 4,000 miles, over 100 locks, and 100 or so dockings and many anchorages behind me I have a few thoughts.

As always, how and where you use the boat maters. If you have a home dock that you use regularly, then the dock can be set up to make your life easier which makes a larger boat more practical. If you live in an area with limited locks that too makes a larger boat more practical.

Traveling the way I do, my requirements were (and still are);
No larger than 40 feet, my boat is 36'.
Doors on both sides of the cabin.
Walk around decks, all on one level.
The ability to move sideways, twins or at least one thruster (mine has a stern thruster and I like it).
Upper and lower helms.

I have length of the boat lines on all four corners, 24 foot mid lines and enough fenders for both sides. I never know until the last minute which side of a lock or dock I will be on.

I find that my Marine Trader 36 is both comfortable and manageable.

Best of luck and have fun,
Arch

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Arch,

Thanks for insights...I plan to be single handing less than you...more on the order of 60-75% of the time. My home port and most of my cruising should be devoid of locks etc. (even though I am planning to eventually be single handing the loop), so while a 36 footer may be comfortable and manageable, I would think that if the other requirements you noted were met, then under most circumstances other than high winds, currents etc. a fellow should be able to handle a boat in the 40 to 44 foot range without undo drama...what say you?

(Dan--sent Private Message re boat size)

Irdiverdan said:

Arch,

Thanks for insights...I plan to be single handing less than you...more on the order of 60-75% of the time. My home port and most of my cruising should be devoid of locks etc. (even though I am planning to eventually be single handing the loop), so while a 36 footer may be comfortable and manageable, I would think that if the other requirements you noted were met, then under most circumstances other than high winds, currents etc. a fellow should be able to handle a boat in the 40 to 44 foot range without undo drama...what say you?

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40-44 should be no problem...I pretty much single hand my 40 (really a smallish 39) for 2-3000 miles a year up/down the ICW.

If you are good it's not hard at all...even with a single/no thruster. The more inexperienced you are or the less time you have to get better..then the boat has to be set up a little better for you...but still doable.

For what it's worth, my feeling re docking short-handed is the benefit of quick access to the docking side through a pilot door, hence not agreeing with Art on this one re docking from the flybridge - too much risk of injury thundering down to secure a line before the boat drifts off, even though I agree the 360 degree vis is handy - it's not essential. Having the right angle and speed of approach and being able to get out there and secure quick is essential.
The other thing is the benefit of getting a roughly mid-ships spring line fixed, so that, and this is the important bit, one can then gently pin the boat against the dock by engaging forward or rearward thrust at idle, while you do the rest. Ie the boat only moves a short distance and it is pinned against the dock. A line that is either too far forward, or too far back, means you can only achieve this effect in one direction, astern or fowards, and you might not have room for that. Just a thought...

Peter B said:

For what it's worth, my feeling re docking short-handed is the benefit of quick access to the docking side through a pilot door, hence not agreeing with Art on this one re docking from the flybridge - too much risk of injury thundering down to secure a line before the boat drifts off, even though I agree the 360 degree vis is handy - it's not essential. Having the right angle and speed of approach and being able to get out there and secure quick is essential.
The other thing is the benefit of getting a roughly mid-ships spring line fixed, so that, and this is the important bit, one can then gently pin the boat against the dock by engaging forward or rearward thrust at idle, while you do the rest. Ie the boat only moves a short distance and it is pinned against the dock. A line that is either too far forward, or too far back, means you can only achieve this effect in one direction, astern or fowards, and you might not have room for that. Just a thought...

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Pete

I agree that being next to pilot door could be quicker access than from bridge for some boats’ layouts. My Tolly allows me to come over side of sundeck after only one step down from bridge to sundeck and then exit to dock through Tolly's full length side railing in just two steps. That said, being fleet of foot is required as there are some twists, turns, and direction changes. In my case and in my boat's layout case it currently pleases me more to dock single handed via fly bridge operations. Additionally, if it became necessary, I pre ready by leaving the salon door open so that if need be I can again board and quickly regain pilot control from upper or lower station. Importantly, before docking I make sure to have all fenders, lines, boat hook... etc well in place before entering into docking maneuvers. I do those make ready actions whether docking by myself or with crew.

Also - I surely agree that via spring line usage a boat can be pinned against dock by idling in forward or reverse. And, I have done this while at helm and crew is in process of attaching other lines. However, I must say, unless the most unusual and stringent of circumstances were to occur (not simple single handed docking) I will NEVER leave my boat in propulsion gear at any rpm or in any direction while I am off board and not ready-at-the-helm to take actions that might become required. There are simply too many unforeseen circumstances that may occur wherein the boat breaks loose. Ramifications of potential calamities with a loose, propulsion engaged boat having no person aboard are simply too high for my liking. I do not recall ever having left a boat in gear while no one was aboard, especially me when I was the sole acting pilot, whether others were aboard or not! That’s simply the way I see it - IMHO

Regarding docking: I dock from the fly bridge when I know I have help at the dock. I will also dock from the fly bridge when there is no wind or current or the wind/current are working for me. Otherwise I dock from the lower helm.

When single handing, rear visibility is a big deal. My boat does not have good rear visibility. In a narrow, crowded fairway this can be a big deal especially when everything goes to #%^*. And it will go there eventually.

I never leave the boat until it is secure. In gear, out of gear, doesn't matter. Once I step off the boat onto the dock, I have lost control. Secure will mean different things in different situations and conditions. This is where having long dock lines can make a difference.

Getting back to size. I would rather singlehand a well setup 50 footer than a poorly setup 30 footer. I have watched folks try to get a line on a cleat by reaching through the side curtain on a 30 foot SeaRay and wind up sideways. I have also watched a friend bring in a Fleming 55 twin engine with bow and stern thrusters against a 2 knot current with complete authority. He is also a very skilled helmsman who would tell you that when it all goes to #%^*, his boat is too big to singlehand.

The best advice I received and will pass on is to get the smallest boat that will meet your needs, set it up well, and sleep well at night.

Arch

PS: remember that everything gets bigger, heavier, and more expensive as the boat gets longer.

Gentlemen, I can't thank you enough as I have found the discussions here have been most enlightening and you have given me much excellent information and insights. To summarize the main points I am taking away from these discussions...1) As far as single handing goes size is not the question...a properly set up and laid out boat is paramount, along with pre-docking preparation etc.
2) What I am gathering concerning size is it does matter as far as enjoyment, cost of ownership, handling, maintenance etc. and that i need to look for the smallest boat with which I will be comfortable living aboard...and the smaller that turns out to be the better...is that it in a nutshell?

Irdiverdan said:

Gentlemen, I can't thank you enough as I have found the discussions here have been most enlightening and you have given me much excellent information and insights. To summarize the main points I am taking away from these discussions...1) As far as single handing goes size is not the question...a properly set up and laid out boat is paramount, along with pre-docking preparation etc.
2) What I am gathering concerning size is it does matter as far as enjoyment, cost of ownership, handling, maintenance etc. and that i need to look for the smallest boat with which I will be comfortable living aboard...and the smaller that turns out to be the better...is that it in a nutshell?

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sort of....there are those that will tell you buy the smallest boat you can be happy with (generally not liveaboards) and liveaboards often tell you buy the largest boat you can afford to maintain and run as it is your home and no need to scrimp.

No right answer..... but you have to determine what you want to have aboard and do with your liveaboard life.

When I was 25 and living aboard a small sailboat in Ft Lauderdale....you lived outside most of the time and the only hobby I had at the time was girls...so all I really needed was a bed and something to chill the drinks...

Now I like to have fishing gear, bicycles, a nice motor dingy, barbequeing equipment, dive/snorkel gear plus all the clothes necessary for 4 seasons plus dress clothes, shoes, etc...etc for 2...plus a dog.

I wish I had held out for an Albin 43 somedays as being able to have the washer/dryer, plus the storage would have been great...just didn't have the money, couldn't wait and I really wanted a single engine...

So be careful going smaller if you plan to live aboard....there is an unbelievable difference in full timing aboard and someone that uses their boat a lot...but still dirt dwells....till they have lived aboard (I have done it 3 times) away from their dirt support...they just don't know the difference.

psneeld said:

Now I like to have fishing gear, bicycles, a nice motor dingy, barbequeing equipment, dive/snorkel gear plus all the clothes necessary for 4 seasons plus dress clothes, shoes, etc...etc for 2...plus a dog.

I wish I had held out for an Albin 43 somedays as being able to have the washer/dryer, plus the storage would have been great...just didn't have the money, couldn't wait and I really wanted a single engine...

So be careful going smaller if you plan to live aboard....there is an unbelievable difference in full timing aboard and someone that uses their boat a lot...but still dirt dwells....till they have lived aboard (I have done it 3 times) away from their dirt support...they just don't know the difference.

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Thanks for your thoughts as to be honest I am having a hard time wrapping my mind around the "smaller the better" school of thought. I plan to spend 80 -90% of my time on the boat...I too SCUBA dive, fish, love to BBQ, bicycle etc. so I am finding that a 36 footer would feel cramped. I believe I would find myself like you longing for a bigger boat. Plus the thought of any indoor salon time being spent at a settee doesn't really do it for me either, but I guess that is what some posters are saying i.e. "get the smallest boat that I can be comfortable with" and for me I'm thinking the smallest I would be happy with is a 40' as I too only want a single engine and most boats over 40' seem to be twins...BTW I'm liking the Albin 40'

There's usually some balance point. "Smallest" has some advantages, but then some folks then suffer from 3-foot-itis shortly after the first acquisition. And of course that costs.

While searching for the right balance, another though to keep in mind is to try to buy your second -- or third -- boat first.

-Chris

(Dan--- See PM)

Although I have single handed a number of boats I prefer to have at least one other on board.
When everything is going well its not an issue, but Murphy is never far away from any boat it seems, so I always where my PFD when single and am extra cautious as it doesnt take much of a slip to possibly land in the water and watch your boat head away from you.
I know of at least one person this past year who went boating by himself who never came home alive and that case was in a lake.
As for locking unless youre in a runabout its not for single handling.

Art said:

Pete...I agree that being next to pilot door could be quicker access than from bridge for some boats’ layouts.... I will NEVER leave my boat in propulsion gear at any rpm or in any direction while I am off board and not ready-at-the-helm to take actions that might become required. There are simply too many unforeseen circumstances that may occur wherein the boat breaks loose....

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Art, I agree, and if single handing, I do engage neutral once that mid ships, and reasonably short, (winched in), spring line is cleated, as this is the beauty of that method. With the mid ships line fixed, she ain't go in' nowhere, even if stern or bow swings out a bit, so you can hop off to secure the other lines at your leisure, so to speak. The pinning in gear is just a trick which makes it easier for crew. However, I seriously doubt a boat at idle in gear would ever break a line or pull out a cleat, especially if you have jumped off and immediately secured a second. But I take your point, there is a theoretical issue there of being off the boat with drive engaged. I guess it is pretty much a matter of what trust one has on the gear, and familiarity with what you are doing. After all, I'm sure you have no trouble leaving your car park with the engine running while you get out to clear the mailbox or similar..?

Peter B said:

Art, I agree, and if single handing, I do engage neutral once that mid ships, and reasonably short, (winched in), spring line is cleated, as this is the beauty of that method. With the mid ships line fixed, she ain't go in' nowhere, even if stern or bow swings out a bit, so you can hop off to secure the other lines at your leisure, so to speak. The pinning in gear is just a trick which makes it easier for crew. However, I seriously doubt a boat at idle in gear would ever break a line or pull out a cleat, especially if you have jumped off and immediately secured a second. But I take your point, there is a theoretical issue there of being off the boat with drive engaged. I guess it is pretty much a matter of what trust one has on the gear, and familiarity with what you are doing. After all, I'm sure you have no trouble leaving your car park with the engine running while you get out to clear the mailbox or similar..?

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Peter - I wish you best continued luck.

With boat in any gear, engine running, and no one aboard... It simply takes one knot slip, cleat break, line break, dock board that cleat is fastened to pull loose... or???

Fact: It only needs to be one mistake or one error or one unexpected event... just one time... THEN

When I'm "clinched in" using the Coot's two mid-ship cleats with the dock finger's middle cleat, I'm secure enough to put the boat in neutral/idle while casually stepping aboard the dock (boat's deck and floating dock are within several vertical inches) to secure fore and aft dock lines.

Me worry?

As a towboat operator I am forced by circumstance to leave the boat in gear while not at the helm and not aboard sometimes.

Single handling your own boat can be a handful sometimes...when you are single handling your boat and another at the end of a towline with no one on board it really can be a trick...especially when you are in a place where you are forced to attach a towline/disconnect and there's no room between pilings or along a dock to tie your towboat up to.

Many times the towboat while in gear starts to slip away from where you want it...even when in gear slightly above idle it takes awhile till it gathers any speed/momentum. In the last 11 years doing it I have always had enough time to return to the helm or where tied to readjust.

A carefully tied boat amidship should be no more likely to slip away while in gear than it should be if in strong winds or current.

While I agree it's a last resort maneuver...it isn't automatically the end of the world if you are careful.

Greetings,
Mr. Coot. Are you showing us the bird? Nasty......

psneeld said:

As a towboat operator I am forced by circumstance to leave the boat in gear while not at the helm and not aboard sometimes.

Single handling your own boat can be a handful sometimes...when you are single handling your boat and another at the end of a towline with no one on board it really can be a trick...especially when you are in a place where you are forced to attach a towline/disconnect and there's no room between pilings or along a dock to tie your towboat up to.

Many times the towboat while in gear starts to slip away from where you want it...even when in gear slightly above idle it takes awhile till it gathers any speed/momentum. In the last 11 years doing it I have always had enough time to return to the helm or where tied to readjust.

A carefully tied boat amidship should be no more likely to slip away while in gear than it should be if in strong winds or current.

While I agree it's a last resort maneuver...it isn't automatically the end of the world if you are careful.

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ps - You are correct, being that you an EXPERT boat handler!

In that, as you say:

- "As a towboat operator I am forced by circumstance to leave the boat in gear while not at the helm and not aboard sometimes."

- "Single handling your own boat can be a handful sometimes..."

- Many times the towboat while in gear starts to slip away from where you want it...even when in gear slightly above idle it takes awhile till it gathers any speed/momentum. In the last 11 years doing it I have always had enough time to return to the helm or where tied to readjust.

- A carefully tied boat amidship should be no more likely to slip away while in gear than it should be if in strong winds or current.

- While I agree it's a last resort maneuver...it isn't automatically the end of the world if you are careful

I simply add this...

You, my boating friend, are a super experienced boat handler. And, I'd trust your judgment, as Captain, under any condition. Additionally, your required extreme-efforts during tow circumstances are light years beyond a "pleasure boater's" usual single handed docking efforts. Your learned response time and resulting response actions must be many % better than general boaters. That said; I strongly recommend that (for pleasure boaters in general) singled handed boat docking should not include leaving the propulsion source in any gear while not aboard the boat and therefore not being capable of nearly instant power/gear adjustments... as necessary. IMO, there's just "too much slip twixt the cup and the lip" in detailed singlehanded docking. Therefore, regarding boat in gear with no pilot aboard - Murphy's Law: "Anything that can go wrong, will go wrong".

General Boaters - - > Be Aware!!

Deleted

RT Firefly said:

Greetings,
Mr. Coot. Are you showing us the bird? Nasty......

Click to expand...

A-well-a, everybody's heard about the bird
Bird, bird, bird, b-bird's the word
A-well-a, bird, bird, bird, the bird is the word
A-well-a, bird, bird, bird, well, the bird is the word
A-well-a, bird, bird, bird, b-bird's the word
A-well-a, bird, bird, bird, well, the bird is the word
A-well-a, bird, bird, b-bird's the word
A-well-a, bird, bird, bird, b-bird's the word


... and so on.

I haven't yet tried to use the idle method with a spring line while singlehanded. I tend to rely on planning, preparation and patience.

It sometimes takes me several goes when the wind is blowing me off the dock to get the right amount of momentum, but I'd rather abort and retry instead of jumping a gap and hope to manhandle the boat in.

healhustler said:

I single hand my Krogen 36 about 90 percent of the time. When it comes to handling in the fairway (between lines of boats), I appreciate the full keel and large rudder....and a bow thruster is a big plus as well. But even the best of us can have real problems with the wind and current. Part of the ease of single handling is "knowing" what to expect. One of the most experienced pilots I know called me from the middle of the St. Lucie River in Stuart, FL, asking me to catch a bow line as he charged full throttle against the 4 knot broadside current into the marina. It was just one of those times, and there will be those times.

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With apologies to OP:


Bucky, in case you didn't know, several refugees from liveaboard have migrated to cruisersforum, since they have a decent liveaboard section...

And now back to your regularly scheduled programming...



-Chris

AusCan said:

I haven't yet tried to use the idle method with a spring line while singlehanded. I tend to rely on planning, preparation and patience.

It sometimes takes me several goes when the wind is blowing me off the dock to get the right amount of momentum, but I'd rather abort and retry instead of jumping a gap and hope to manhandle the boat in.

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Taking on board what Art says, nevertheless it is pretty risk free to pin the boat against the dock using idle in gear, once the breast line or mid ships spring is secured, just long enough to leap off to secure another line or two...so you don't have to "jump off and manhandle her in", Auscan. Better that than risking drifting into a neighbouring boat, for example, or far enough out of position you have to abort the docking and try to back out without someone to fend off, in the case of solo efforts. Even with a bowthruster, you cannot leave the helm with side thrust active, so once in position, the thruster is no good to you unless you can remain at the helm with crew to help secure that first critical line. Or so I believe, as it is a spring loaded toggle switch, but I stand to be corrected if wrong, not having a thruster. Anyone have a a thruster you can lock into thrust..?

Peter,
I've used the spring line method when I have another body who knows what to do, but when singlehanded I have to exit the pilothouse via the cockpit door, and I'm not confident enough to make the dash when the wind is bad.
I'm considering mounting a cleat outside my starboard window and leaving a secured dockline on a raised hook within easy reach. Then it would be easy-peasy.

AusCan said:

Peter,
I've used the spring line method when I have another body who knows what to do, but when singlehanded I have to exit the pilothouse via the cockpit door, and I'm not confident enough to make the dash when the wind is bad.
I'm considering mounting a cleat outside my starboard window and leaving a secured dockline on a raised hook within easy reach. Then it would be easy-peasy.

Click to expand...

Thats what I do.

I have a cleat just outside the pilothouse door, and leave a line attached to a cleat at my slip that is, when the boat is positioned correctly just outside the pilothouse door.

A boat hook grabs the dock line and were tied up. With a midship line attached the boat isnt going anywhere.

Peter B said:

Anyone have a a thruster you can lock into thrust..?

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Yes. ABT hydraulic thrusters can be locked as well as used proportionally for as long as needed.

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