"Fudging" sea service for master's license

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Well ya got me Rck....don't have my old links but the USCG referenced several incidents where a USCG licensed Captain was reprimanded for the actions of a non-licensed owner aboard recreational vessels...whether it ever wound up preventing a renewal I can't say for sure.

When I was teaching...the USCG provided this information to the Captain's Schools and told us to remind the students that the USCG is following ta similar approach as CDLs...where infractions driving your own car still affected your CDL (atleast that's what my CDL friends say can happen)...the USCG wants (at least until recently) USCG licensed Captains to "help" their friends to a higher standard.

OK...it might all be a scare tactic...but it certainly is in the realm of possibility...and it sounds right up their alley based on my insider knowledge of the USCG and how it ticks.

I'll gladly admit that I can't put my finger on a specific case...it just all fits for where I have been and what I have heard directy from the USCG.
 
Tony B said:
Quite a few years ago, the USCG stopped administering the tests. Now the sea school itself administers the tests. When they advertise "Everybody Passes - Guaranteed" they really mean it. This would be hilarious if it was not true.

Kinda like hiring the wolf to guard the sheep.
Click to expand...

Pretty sure the USCG still gives exams...

NMC Regional Examination Centers Page

2. Do I need an appointment to visit my local REC or can I just walk-in?​
Most RECs accept walk-ins for application drop off. However, if testing, an appointment must
be made. All walk-ins will be handled on an “as available” basis.​
• ​
If going to REC Charleston, an appointment must be made in order to be seen.​

• ​
Appointments should be made 3 days in advance.​

• ​
If testing in REC Boston or REC New York and unable to begin your testing on Monday,
you must contact them directly in order to set up your appointment.​

and not everyone passes...but certainly too many do....I have had failures...

The gurantee is that you can keep taking the course and test till you pass...but that's not guaranteed as the test questions and the tests themselves are tightly controlled by the USCG and classes are monitored for compliance.
 
psneeld said:
Pretty sure the USCG still gives exams...

and not everyone passes...but certainly too many do....I have had failures...

The gurantee is that you can keep taking the course and test till you pass...but that's not guaranteed as the test questions and the tests themselves are tightly controlled by the USCG and classes are monitored for compliance.​
Click to expand...

Psneeld​

In the old days, most people I knew failed and eventually gave up. The offshore boat companies were really desperate for captains. These days just about nobody fails with these offshore boat companies. Instructors just happen to be looking the other way while the prospect gets help from his neighbors.​


Frm-Home page read several lines down from the top "We give you the course and we give you the test".​

BTW, I didn't know the CG still gave the tests. thanks for the info. I was just going by what I heard. I was amazed when I heard that the sea schools were also administering the tests.
 
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Tony B said:
Psneeld​


In the old days, most people I knew failed and eventually gave up. The offshore boat companies were really desperate for captains. These days just about nobody fails with these offshore boat companies. Instructors just happen to be looking the other way while the prospect gets help from his neighbors.​


Frm-Home page read several lines down from the top "We give you the course and we give you the test".​

BTW, I didn't know the CG still gave the tests. thanks for the info. I was just going by what I heard. I was amazed when I heard that the sea schools were also administering the tests.
Click to expand...

The tests are hard (they are made up from the same questions the USCG uses and the tests are reviewed. They are also closed book unlike the USCG where only NAVRULES is closed book)...hard enough that most people taking the course would never pass them either without taking the course...yes the course does teach to the test but it's no dead giveaway.

Many of the charter captains that did go through my course and actually use the license forget so much afterwards it's embarrassing...and the guys that took it the old fashion way are the same...they forget the same too...cause ya just don't use 90% of the stuff they require you to know.

Being a good captain always boils down to dedication...whether licensed or not, whether licensed the old way or not...and the process doesn't really take that into account from what I can see.....
 
Regional Exam Centers (REC's) are alive and well. Some of the entry level licenses are administered at the prep centers. Once you get above 100 ton, it gets very difficult to fudge things. The requirements for "sitting" for a license or renewing require an investment in STCW school (5 day), Radar school (3day), Medical care provider school (3 day), fire fighting school (3 or 5 day depending) etc etc. These classes are from several hundred, to several thousand dollars each, plus travel and lodging. Not many recreational operators are going to spend the time or money necessary to obtain and keep these credentials just for there egos.
 
psneeld said:
The tests are hard (they are made up from the same questions the USCG uses and the tests are reviewed. They are also closed book unlike the USCG where only NAVRULES is closed book)...hard enough that most people taking the course would never pass them either without taking the course...yes the course does teach to the test but it's no dead giveaway.

Many of the charter captains that did go through my course and actually use the license forget so much afterwards it's embarrassing...and the guys that took it the old fashion way are the same...they forget the same too...cause ya just don't use 90% of the stuff they require you to know.

Being a good captain always boils down to dedication...whether licensed or not, whether licensed the old way or not...and the process doesn't really take that into account from what I can see.....
Click to expand...

Same with a Florida contractors license.
 
beachbum29 said:
You can get a 10% discount on most insurances with a captain license.
Click to expand...

When I insured my last vessel...prior to getting my captains license...the insurance company said with my years of experience and a diesel boat and I was maxed out for discounts.

I'm sure it's always good to ask and shop around different companies...there seems to be no standardization with insurance companies.
 
Back in '84 I received my first licence (Master inland, UPV Ocean). While I had the sea time, I felt I needed to take a prep course for all the exam questions that I had no real world experience for (what lights does a submarine display at night on the surface while making way). The class was 2 weeks in the evenings from 5 to 11pm. First class the instructor started by talking about "aids to navigation" specifically buoys and nuns. He stopped after about a minute with a look on his face. Turning around, it became clear that 20% of the class had no idea what he was talking about. 2 weeks later everybody had passed the class; a week after that 28 out of 30 of us had gotten are license on the first try. I'd be willing to bet the instructor could have taught someone to pass the license who had never set foot on a boat. All they would need was someone to fudge the sea time for them. Hard to have much respect for a licensing process that requires no practical test from an independent entity or the licensing authority.

Ted
 
O C Diver said:
Back in '84 I received my first licence (Master inland, UPV Ocean). While I had the sea time, I felt I needed to take a prep course for all the exam questions that I had no real world experience for (what lights does a submarine display at night on the surface while making way). The class was 2 weeks in the evenings from 5 to 11pm. First class the instructor started by talking about "aids to navigation" specifically buoys and nuns. He stopped after about a minute with a look on his face. Turning around, it became clear that 20% of the class had no idea what he was talking about. 2 weeks later everybody had passed the class; a week after that 28 out of 30 of us had gotten are license on the first try. I'd be willing to bet the instructor could have taught someone to pass the license who had never set foot on a boat. All they would need was someone to fudge the sea time for them. Hard to have much respect for a licensing process that requires no practical test from an independent entity or the licensing authority.

Ted
Click to expand...

Either we see the licensing system as OK or Broke....

Sure there are Maritime accidents but are they the result of the licensing process or lack of recurrent testing or just the variety of other accident causing factors that affect all machinery operation.

I forget what levels require what but the FAA requires recurrent testing...should the USCG?
 
Anybody who takes the prep courses are going to learn something whether or not they pass the course. Even though the prep courses are designed to get the student through the testing process, they are going to learn Rules of the road, plotting etc.
I have tested both ways, studying on my own, and using the prep courses. Each has its own merits and drawbacks. A license does not make someone an expert, anymore than when you passed your driving exam in high school. It is a starting place. No one gets a job because they have a captains license (in the real world at least), they must combine a license with experience, judgment and management skills. "driving the boat" is at most 50% of the job.
 
psneeld said:
Either we see the licensing system as OK or Broke....

Sure there are Maritime accidents but are they the result of the licensing process or lack of recurrent testing or just the variety of other accident causing factors that affect all machinery operation.

I forget what levels require what but the FAA requires recurrent testing...should the USCG?
Click to expand...

FAA requires a biannual flight review (every 2 years) for a users licence that includes a check ride (flight). This is done with an FAA aproved evaluator not an employee of the FAA. This is for a private pilot licence, not a pilot for higher. Doesn't seem unreasonable to me to require a one day ride along by an evaluator every 5 years to re-certify a boat captain for higher.

Ted
 
O C Diver said:
FAA requires a biannual flight review (every 2 years) for a users licence that includes a check ride (flight). This is done with an FAA aproved evaluator not an employee of the FAA. This is for a private pilot licence, not a pilot for higher. Doesn't seem unreasonable to me to require a one day ride along by an evaluator every 5 years to re-certify a boat captain for higher.

Ted
Click to expand...

That's the rub...big tax dollars ...(not in the big scheme of things but for the agency tasked with it)

All of it may have little return on the dollar...meaning captains that are going to have accidents are based on their habits...not necessarily knowledge of certain procedures.

Most pilots/captains can pass check rides even though there are a menace day to day ( I was a USCG instructor pilot for 8 years).
 
psneeld said:
That's the rub...big tax dollars ...(not in the big scheme of things but for the agency tasked with it)

All of it may have little return on the dollar...meaning captains that are going to have accidents are based on their habits...not necessarily knowledge of certain procedures.

Most pilots/captains can pass check rides even though there are a menace day to day ( I was a USCG instructor pilot for 8 years).
Click to expand...
Tax $ aren't really the issue as the user pays the evaluator just as I pay all fees every time I renew my license. I see no diference with this and going to get the dotors phisical for the renewal, all costs for requiring a physical are payed by the licence holder.

While I agree with you that a bunch of menaces will get past, others will be blocked, and some who know they should probably retire may reconsider if they know they have to be evaluated before renewal.

Ted
 
Sailor of Fortune said:
A license does not make someone an expert, anymore than when you passed your driving exam in high school. It is a starting place.
Click to expand...

That is the salient point of this entire thread IMO. As someone who holds many professional certificates and licenses it is a true statement off the water, assume it applies on the water too. Because someone is certified to do something in no way makes them competent to do it.
 
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