Grand Banks vs. ?

<a>I see a lot of articles extolling the virtues of owning a Grand Banks, of any length, and how they are superior to most other boats in their class. To be sure, Grand Banks builds an excellent boat, but there are other boats, not as well known, that some would say are equal to or better than a Grand Banks. Although I admit to being biased, here is one example.

(Sorry guys but I can't figure out how to attach a PDF)



</a><a>file:///Users/walterpoulson/Desktop/IG%20&%20GB%20Comparison%20PDF.pdf</a><a>
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-- Edited by SeaHorse II on Tuesday 22nd of December 2009 03:18:05 PM

-- Edited by SeaHorse II on Tuesday 22nd of December 2009 03:20:50 PM

-- Edited by SeaHorse II on Tuesday 22nd of December 2009 03:27:55 PM

-- Edited by SeaHorse II on Tuesday 22nd of December 2009 03:37:36 PM

-- Edited by SeaHorse II on Tuesday 22nd of December 2009 03:38:55 PM

SeaHorse II wrote:

<a>I see a lot of articles extolling the virtues of owning a Grand Banks, of any length, and how they are superior to most other boats in their class. To be sure, Grand Banks builds an excellent boat, but there are other boats, not as well known, that some would say are equal to or better than a Grand Banks. Although I admit to being biased, here is one example.*



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-- Edited by SeaHorse II on Tuesday 22nd of December 2009 03:18:05 PM

-- Edited by SeaHorse II on Tuesday 22nd of December 2009 03:20:50 PM

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Where's the example Walt? Or is it "Sea Horse"?

*

Dave; I'm still trying to figure out how to put a PDF in the post! ?????

I give up! Can't, for the life of me get the PDF in the post! The long & short of it is that the PDF is of a PowerBoat Report, in 1995, comparing a 32 GB to a 32 IG. Great article by a magazine that takes no advertising and trys to be completely objective. It's about a 6 page article and here's the concluding table.

SeaHorse II wrote:

I give up! Can't, for the life of me get the PDF in the post! The long & short of it is that the PDF is of a PowerBoat Report, in 1995, comparing a 32 GB to a 32 IG. Great article by a magazine that takes no advertising and trys to be completely objective. It's about a 6 page article and here's the concluding table.

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Walt, you sent me that article. Its on my computer at my office and I am playing hookey this week but I will pdf it at some point soon and post it for you, unless I also have probs.

The only difference shown in your table is in the qulaity of and access to the mechanical systems. Otherwise your reviewer likes both boats.
I have several friends with GB and several with comparable trawlers from other brands (myself included, so I will admit a bias against part of the GB rep)
I have no doubt GB are a good boat. What I doubt, for some of them, is the value, as the price they fetch is often far beyond the price for an equivalent other brand. One eg: (an older boater, friend of my Dad's), paid over $1 Million for a used GB 46 a few years ago. On showing it to me I was struck by the similarity in space allocation to my own (non GB) 44. Sure the GB is a lot newer and the condition of the interior finish showed that. The exterior is likewise in great condition, and the running gear has few hours on it. In the 4 or 5 years since its purchase, he has had to spend a lot of money on maintenance of various accessories, notably the watermaker, and in the same time I have not. My resale and his will be far different, as I doubt I could get over $200k for mine while I have no doubt his will be over $600k in the present market. that represents a loss of $400 plus the cost of his maintenance, while in the same period, I have suffered no loss of value and spent next to nothing to maintain.
For owners that have an unlimited budget, the only thing I have against the GB is the plumb bow and resulting very wet ride. I note their latest 41 and 47 have some flare to the bow, so they are listening.

The major difference between Grand Banks and other similar designs, particularly in the 70s and 80s is not the designs, but the consistency of construction quality. Where the build quality of many of the so-called "Taiwan trawlers" might vary all over the map because of the way the boats were farmed out to small boatyards for completion, every GB was built in the same plant (Kowloon, Singapore, or more lately Malaysia) by the same people using the same processes and the same components. Whether one likes the design, configuration, layout, etc. of any boat is purely subjective. What one reviewer likes another reviewer won't like.

But GB started out to build a high-quality boat and they did not vary from that goal. Are they the best-built boat? No. I would say Nordhavn and Fleming, to name two I am a little bit familiar with, are better. But they cost a hell of a lot more.

In the eleven years we have owned our '73 GB, I have seen examples of other trawler brands of similar age develop a wide variety of fundamental structural problems that came about because of the construction techniques used on those boats. A lot of these things just don't seem to happen on a GB. Yes, you can neglect or abuse a GB and make a wreck out of it. But given equal care and maintenance, things that tend to happen with other boats tend not to on a GB. While GBs do command higher prices, there is a large degree of "you get what you pay for" in that price difference.

I'm not talking about whether other boats have better accomodations or more space for the same length or a more user-friendly galley layout or a better stateroom confguration or any of that sort of thing. That is totally subjective on the part of the buyer or owner. I'm talking about a consistency of high-quality construction and the use of high-quality hardware and components that, over time, hold up better than many boat brands of a similar type and age.

We did not buy a GB because we were in love with the design or the boat's interior configuration. There are several boats we much prefer from those aspects--- Fleming, Krogen, and Victory Tug to name three of them. But we decided on a GB based on a lot of research into how they were made, and how they hold up over a long time for most of their owners. They are by no means trouble free. But they tend to resist many problems longer than other brands, and when a problem does crop up, like a leaking window, they are very easy to fix even for relatively inexperienced owners like we were.

So it's not our favorite boat, but considering its age and how long we've owned and used it, it has required relatively little effort in terms of maintenance and repair compared to what I see in most other similar trawler brands. The fact that we can spend most of our time using the boat instead of fixing it has made the extra money we might have paid because it's a GB very well worth it.

The arguement that a GB (or Nordhavn or any brand) is overpriced for what you get is a) an opinion not a rule and b) totally irrelevant if a lot of people are willing to pay that price.* That has been the case for Grand Banks and Eastbay.* If the boats did not hold up or deliver the consistent reliability that they have a reputation for delivering, they would not command the prices that they do.* People say, "Well, a CHB or Brand-X*has the same layout and the same space, or maybe a better layout and more space" for a lot less money.**Could be; it's a subjective opnion so you can't say it's wrong.** But if CHB or Puget Trawler or whatever*truly had the same repuation--- which has to be built on something, reputations don't just materialize out of thin air--- then CHBs should command exactly the same prices as GBs.



-- Edited by Marin on Tuesday 22nd of December 2009 09:03:30 PM

koliver wrote:

*In the 4 or 5 years since its purchase, he has had to spend a lot of money on maintenance of various accessories, notably the watermaker, and in the same time I have not. My resale and his will be far different, as I doubt I could get over $200k

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That's not a GB comparison, that's a watermaker comparison.* If the GB had the same watermaker as your boat, the maintenance, or lack of it, would probably have been similar.* If what you're saying is that because his GB has a watermaker and your boat does not, therefore he's had to spend more on maintaining his watermaker than you have, that's a meaningless comparison, too.

*


-- Edited by Marin on Tuesday 22nd of December 2009 08:20:29 PM

Walt: Here's a link to the comparo article pdf I created so all can view it.


http://tinyurl.com/y8tjds8


-- Edited by dwhatty on Wednesday 23rd of December 2009 10:04:19 AM

In 2006 I finalized the purchase of relatively new Defever 48. I was not a bargain shopper. Build quality vs layout vs price vs resale were all taken into account. For the "same" age (very new) vessel, the price differential vs what I bought was approximately:

Nordhavn 47*+$700K
Nordic Tug 42+$250K
Fleming 55 + $900K
Selene 47 +$200K
GB 47/49 +$350K

Don't get me wrong, all the above are excellent vessels. But I wanted teh most for my money. *The NH 47 and* Fleming 55 were more $$ largely because of shear mass. marginal better build quality in hull with definitely better quality for interior furnishing. GB and Selene hull and mechanicals no better and marginally better*in interior quality. NT, lesser quality overall and simply overpriced*- largely due to higher US labor$$.

Advertising and marketing adds a huge amount to GB and NH - probably 15%. Fleming a bit less. I've had three hull cores removed in the Defever - for heater and bow thruster. The yard, one of the best in NA, says there is far more robust core in the Defever than many of the above. One reason is less/none finite element analysis*for the*Defever with older and thicker hand layups used.

Just my thoughts

sunchaser wrote:Advertising and marketing adds a huge amount to GB and NH - probably 15%.

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I think you will find that the percentage is a lot less. GB and NH don't have to advertise all that much given their brand recognition.* While they may advertise in a number of boating magazines so it may seem they do a lot of advertising, there aren't that many boating magazines, let alone magazines that appeal to potential GB and NH buyers.*

Many GB and NH sales are from people either trading up or moving up from older or smaller versions of the same brand.* Given the low number of models in the Grand Banks lines these days--- there are only three I believe, the GB41, GB47, and GB52--- and the fact that most GB buyers decide to purchase a new GB without needing any advertising to help them make that decision, the advertising GB (and NH) does is more to simply maintain a presence in the public's mind.* And GB does not spend a dime advertising used or out-of-production boats, so there is no advertising "pad" built into their sales prices.

The asking price of a GB32, 36, 42, 46 (although this model may still be available new), and 49 are based solely on what that particular used boat market will bear.* A broker may tack something onto a price to cover his advertising costs.* And prices vary with the location.* One reason we went to California to buy our GB in 1998 was that GBs--- which are ideally suited for cruising PNW waters--- were at that time in extremely high demand here.* They were like houses during a housing shortage.* In some cases, buyers actually competed for a particular GB and drove the price thousands higher than the owner originally asked.

But in California. there are relatively few places to cruise this kind of boat so they are less popular, in less demand, and the selling prices reflect that.* In 1998--- and it's surely different in today's economy--- the price of our GB36 in Alameda, CA was a full $20,000 less than the price of the exact same-age, same-condition, same number of engines GB36 in the Puget Sound area.* So it was well worth it to go to California to trial and survey it and have it trucked north.* Even with those expenses, we calculated that we saved about $13,000 over buying an identical boat up here.

The company I work for spends a high dollar figure on advertising, but in the overall scheme of things and compared to companies like Ford, GE, McDonalds, etc. it's just pennies.* We have only about 120 customers or potential customers on the planet--- and far fewer defense product customers--- and that's all we will ever have.* Advertising plays no direct role in any of our sales, nor does it play any direct roll in swaying purchase decisions.* Public perception of our brand plays an indirect role--- if a company has an overall favorable image this does enhance the image with the actual customers who might buy your product--- so the magazine ads and billboards and TV commercials are simply to reinforce brand perception among the traveling public.*

Most airplane (or railroad locomotive or ship or nuclear reactor) purchase decisions these days are based on only two things--- economics and the personal relationship between the buyer and the manufacturer.* Unlike "the old days" the individual characteristics of the planes play almost no role at all unless they have a direct impact on operating economics.* For the most part, airlines don't care what their pilots or mechanics might prefer, the purchase decision is ultimately made by the finance folks.* This is particularly true of the leasing companies, who have become the largest purchasers of commercial airplanes.* So we actually spend less per year on marketing our entire product line than Budweiser spends on a single advertising campaign for just one of their products.

We do, however, put a major effort into helping the operators who use our commercial products promote their images because they are much more like Ford and BMW--- they are selling directly to a huge public consumer market.

I think GB and NH are more like us---- their market is fairly limited to people who can afford or finance a boat that costs over $1 million--- so they are more concerned with simply keeping their name "out there" as opposed to actually influencing anyone with their ads.* Which allows them--- like us-- to keep their marketing and advertising costs very low.* I would not be surprised if it is actually more like one or two percent, if even that.


-- Edited by Marin on Wednesday 23rd of December 2009 02:08:49 PM

Marin* Not to quibble, but I will. The boating mags are the least expense. NH,*GB*and others have staff to feed and expenses to cover*in NA and that is called marketing. The dealer/*selling broker's commission is called marketing.*Commissioning time by the dealer*factory is called marketing. Look at the Boeing budget for marketing and sales unrelated to mags, a huge amount and reported in their 10K and prospectus. NH loves presold boats as the marketing is so much less. But that same vessel made on spec and landed at Dana Point bears marketing costs from that point forward, including the marina space, insurance and*construction loans as the boat sits unsold. A prime reason GB has gone through the dealers in the PNW is too much marketing expense and not enough factory $$ to support.*On a side note,*the development costs of "Ipods" on the GBs has added considerably to the new GB costs. It is all about $$ and dealer support on new vessels - ask GB how much they spend on marketing for the January boat shows - wow!

Marketing is not*a wasted effort, quite the contrary. But it is very big cost*on new vessels.*Yes, a big part of my job is doing budgets.

sunchaser wrote:

*A prime reason GB has gone through the dealers in the PNW is too much marketing expense and not enough factory $$ to support.

...Marketing is not*a wasted effort, quite the contrary. But it is very big cost*on new vessels.

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In the eleven years we have had our GB there have been exactly two GB dealers in the Puget Sound area.* The outfit that had the dealership when we bought ours was Grand Yachts Northwest (today's Northwest Explorations) which was based in Bellingham with a second office and dock on Lake Union in Seattle.* This company had at least two owners, the last of whom was Andy Lund, who was recently named CEO or president*of Nordic Tugs after Mr. Cress's death.* But for whatever reason, Andy was unable to maintain the GB dealership.* It may have been that he did not want to "floor" the number of boats that GB wanted him to carry.* In any event, the GB dealership was given to Passagemaker Yachts in Seattle.

*Passagemaker had the GB dealership until they went bankrupt and failed last year.* I do not believe any company has picked up the GB dealership in this area to date, but I could be wrong on that.

As to your second statement I've quoted above, the marketing cost of new vessels may or may not be large depending on how you measure it and what you consider to be a marketing cost, but the comparison that seemed to be made in the earlier post is that marketing costs is one reason GBs in general are more expensive.* I assume the fellow who started this discussion is in the market for used boat, so in his case any marketing costs GB includes in the price of their new boats is totally irrelevant to the cost of a used GB andn so is not a factor in the prices he is seeing for used GBs, particularly those that are ten, twenty, thirty, or more years old.* The broker may have marketing and advertising costs he attaches to the used boat, but they should be no different than the same costs incurred for the Bayliners in his inventory.

The bottom line is that if our buyer is seeing higher costs for used GBs across the board in comparison with trawler-type boats of similar age and condition, it's not because Grand Banks, Ltd is tacking advertising and marketing costs onto them.


-- Edited by Marin on Wednesday 23rd of December 2009 07:02:04 PM

Marin,*

I believe that Passmaker Yachts is being managed by John Baier of Oceanic Yachts in Sausalito, California (one of GB's West Coast dealers).* At least for the interim.* He has been spending time promoting Passagemaker's inventory, while handling his own listings in Sausalito.

Ray

-- Edited by Giggitoni on Wednesday 23rd of December 2009 10:29:03 PM

My take is that "our buyer" is questioning the value and return on investing in a particular brand. Everyone knows the Grand Banks look- and the perceived advantage of purchasing this brand. I wonder how the perception changes from a "first time buyer" to a seasoned trawler owner.
I would like to own a Grand Banks- who wouldn't. It's a Grand Banks. But I can't afford a Grand Banks. So my resources go to what my budget will allow.
Is a Grand Banks a better investment? Maybe not in my opinion. It certainly has brand recognition. As does Sea Ray. Is a Sea Ray a better cruiser? Maybe. Is it a better investment? Maybe- maybe not. If I owned a Sea Ray and were listing it for sale the first feature I would list would be "It's a Sea Ray". Naturally I would expect more for my vessel. A potential buyer would be asked to pay a premium for the product I have for sale.
OK- Let's say I don't own a Sea Ray. I shopped wisely a few years ago and purchased a boat that appeared to show value that was unrecognized. What if my product were actually a very well built vessel. What if only I and a few select individuals were aware of the advantages to owning said brand. Now I am ready to sell my "investment". I could do very well if the percieved value of my brand had improved.
However- the boat purchasing world may NEVER see the value in my investment. Fortunately I will probably get a fair return on my underpriced "Sea Ray". As I would if I had invested in the real deal.

Possibility II
In the early 90's I worked for our local Caterpillar dirt dealer as a Parts and Service rep. We had one machine salesman that sticks in my mind because of the we he addressed the 15% + premium it cost to purchase a Caterpillar. When on a deal against a Case or Deere his answer was "It's a Caterpillar". Thats it. And he was right. Resale, reman parts availability, technical support, etc. etc. all proved that his product was premium. (I later worked at the Deere Dealer and learned these facts painfully). He was justified in commanding a higher purchase price. It took more investment on Cat's side to provide these value added features. Ultimately the contractor purchasing the Cat brand should realize more uptime, better parts availability and a better return at trade in time.
Maybe that is the case for Grand Banks?

Forkliftt wrote:

Is a Grand Banks a better investment?

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I would say "not automatically."* Or "not just because it's a Grand Banks."** Grand Banks are very well made boats but their real advantage to a buyer, as I said earlier, is the consistent build quality from boat to boat.* If you like the aesthetics and configuration of a Grand Banks, assuming the boat has been well maintained and properly operated, you can pretty much bet it will be a good, reliable, trouble-free (as much as any boat can be considered trouble-free) boat.

But I can think of other boats that I believe represent investments with equal--- maybe even more--- value.* Nordic Tugs, for example.* Tollycraft is another one.* Maybe American Tug although they haven't been around long enough to built a long sale-resale track record.* Hatteras I expect is another example of a boat that is a good investment.

Of course, what does a good investment mean?* I would say, based on*certain people we've met*who have them, that*a Bayliner can be a good investment based on*what the owners were getting out ofowning the boat, and the condition they were keeping it in.

I would say that the "Grand Banks advantage" is not unlike what you have described for Caterpillar but to a lesser degree.* Cat actually makes much of the*stuff that goes into their machines.* Grand Banks does not.* They make the external and internal structures and cabinetry, but everything else --- engines, transmisons, props, shafts,*toilets, plumbing, electronics, refrigerators, windlasses, pumps, door handles,*you name it--- are for the most part purchased components.

But.... Grand Banks still supplies limited support in the way of unique parts or compenents to their older boats.* And the purchased components they use are generally of very high quality built by reputable manufacturers, so if you buy a used*GB there's a good chance the anchor windlass will have been made by a company that's still around and still provides parts and service.

Reputations have to be built on something.* We don't own a new GB so I have no clue if economic and market forces over the years have forced them to compromise on the quality and reliability that built their reputation in the first place.

Our boat was made when Howard Abbey was still supervising the layup and construction of every GB fiberglass hull.* As a result, the hull is amazingly strong.* Not long after we bought the boat I busted a heavy bronze pump-out fitting off the side of the hull up near the rub strip.* The impact tore the fitting out of the hull (it was just*screwed on) and bent the heavy flange around the base of the fitting back 90 degrees.* I figured this had done some major damage to the hull at that location.* When I examined it, the gelcoat had a*tiny dent*in it.* That was it.* And since the fitting was dangling out of the hull attached to its plumbing, I had a chance to see how thick the hull was. This is way up by the rub strip, and the hand-laid fiberglass----it's not a cored hull---is some inch and a half thick.* God knows how thick it is in the bottom.

This is the kind of thing that built the repuation of the boats.* Whether they are still this heavily made I have no idea.

But brand is definitely a factor in*return on investment if one cares about that.* We didn't buy our boat as an investment, and we didn't go into it expecting to get anything back for it.* At this point, I'd be inclined to sink it as an artificial reef for*ling cod*when we can't use it anymore * We chose a GB because we'd chartered one and liked it, and it had a reputation for being well built.

To some people, brand is everything. On a subject probaby dear to a lot of members hearts, Colt revolvers are priced the way they are primarily on the name, in my opinion.* I do not believe they are that much better, or any better, in terms of construction or operation than other*"not Colt"*brands.* When I needed a revolver years ago in Hawaii, I wasn't about to pay the price of a Colt, so I bought a Ruger Blackhawk in .30 M1 caliber.* I had friends with Colts.* Other than the logo, I couldn't see any difference.**

But I don't think this is the case with GB, Nordhavn, Krogen, Fleming, Nordic, and the other so-called "premium" boat brands.* Like your Cat example, I really do think a buyer gets something extra for the extra money they pay for these boats.* Whether what they get is worth the extra they pay is totally subjective.



-- Edited by Marin on Wednesday 23rd of December 2009 11:09:32 PM

SeaHorse II wrote:

<a>I see a lot of articles extolling the virtues of owning a Grand Banks, of any length, and how they are superior to most other boats in their class. To be sure, Grand Banks builds an excellent boat, but there are other boats, not as well known, that some would say are equal to or better than a Grand Banks. Although I admit to being biased, here is one example.

(Sorry guys but I can't figure out how to attach a PDF)

I read this article before purchasing my IG32. It was very convincing. "Adagio" is a 1983 model, the builders plate says she was built in Hong Kong. A Grand Banks owner on my dock says my boat appears to be built by the same people who made his. The details of the decking,*cabinetry and profile of some of the moldings are identical. Electrical panels and mechancials are also very close. A lot of the exterior hardware appears interchangable.*I bought my boat last Summer at a price less than one third of a simular vintage GB.* So I geuss the resale value of a GB will always be higher. In fairness the economy was kind of at a low point and the seller was really ready to move on. I like "Adagio" so well I would not sell her for twice what I paid.****I am really jealous of the huge network of owner resources for the GB folks.* I wanted to install the IG bronze step plates on my teak caps, but have been unable to figure out how to get them.* If she had been a GB the plates would have been one click away.**** If I ever get a GB I will be better qualified to compare the two.* At this point I am well satisfied with my IG32.

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-- Edited by SeaHorse II on Tuesday 22nd of December 2009 03:18:05 PM

-- Edited by SeaHorse II on Tuesday 22nd of December 2009 03:20:50 PM

-- Edited by SeaHorse II on Tuesday 22nd of December 2009 03:27:55 PM

-- Edited by SeaHorse II on Tuesday 22nd of December 2009 03:37:36 PM

-- Edited by SeaHorse II on Tuesday 22nd of December 2009 03:38:55 PM

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*

Today I see only two "mass produced" boat brands as premium Fleming and Nordhavn. That is because the company "owners" are alive and well, really get into improving their vessels and show up regularly at boat shows.**Premium has less to do with* quality and performance but*more to*do with this "owner" involvement. This is not lost on the well heeled potential buyer.

As noted by others on this post, the build quality of the various Chinese shops is today quite similar. For those of you who have been on a newer Offshore you'd have to ask why the*higher price for a Fleming? One reason is catchet and perceived image. After leaving GB, Fleming built a different vessel and established a loyal following by continually improving his boats without throwing out the old.*

GB has created confusion by redesignatiing*boat sizes,*renaming hulls*and overspending on Ipods. They have become the GM of high cost MVs. But where in GB today is a trawler with fuel efficiency and "near"displacement design? GBs now are intended to* compete with Symbol, Hampton and*other high HP non trawlers.* Fleming, unlike GB, has remained true to their origins and stayed with the 55, 65 and a few 75s. Selene remains true to trawler designs but is really going nuts by*launching a different length boat for every boat show and magazine cover. Krogen makes a great design but will forever be tainted with their cored hulls of yesteryear.

The question of NT is can they survive? Cute boats but with no sidedecks and teeny ERs, they just don't cut it for me. And I never liked indoor outdoor carpeting on the cabin sole. Give me a Chinese wood craftsman anyday.


-- Edited by sunchaser on Thursday 24th of December 2009 08:02:42 AM

Sloboat, My marina neighbor has a new OA 50 trawler. It is a very nice vessel and with a single Cummins it should get good economy. OA has a great following and build quality*has been*good on the 30 year span of vessels I've been on.*The OA 50 parked next to me seems considerably smaller than*the old OA 50 Mark Is I've been on. OA has supported their Seattle group very well over the years from what I've seen. They have a big inventory of new spec boats*and seem to be moving them.

sunchaser wrote:

After leaving GB, Fleming built a different vessel and established a loyal following by continually improving his boats without throwing out the old.

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Actually, he didn't buid a different boat.* What Tony built, and still builds today, is an Alaskan.* American Marine (Grand Banks) had this design done for them by Arthur DeFever.* AM only built them out of wood in sizes ranging from 45' to 50-something.* But for whatever reason they did not continue the line in fiberglass when they switched their GB line from wood to glass.

Outside of the fact that when Tony left AM he stole the big "how to build quality fiberglass hulls" manual that Howard Abbey had written for them--- an act that largely contributed to AM's having problems with the hull layups for awhile in the later 70s--- Fleming has done a great job of building a quality boat that he keeps improving year after year.* The earlier ones had quality problems but most of that has long since been ironed out.* But his design is still basically that original DeFever design for American Marine's Alaskan series.* It's been refined a lot, but if you look at an Alaskan, a Fleming, and something like a DeFever 46, you will see the more-than-casual similarities.

*

sunchaser wrote:

But where in GB today is a trawler with fuel efficiency and "near"displacement design?

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I had a chance not long ago to hear directly from GB why this is the case.* In their view, there is no viable market for this type of boat anymore.* At least not a high-profit market.* Their market--- and they do have a very viable one--- wants things very different than what people wanted in the GB32, 36, 42 days.* They cannot build, they said, these kinds of boats with the quality they want to build them with, and sell them for any sort of profit.* This is what finally killed the GB36.* It simply cost too much to manufacture and to make any money on it, they had to price it higher than people--- even wealthy people--- were willing to pay for a 36' boat.* They even tried making a GB36 "Lite" in the early 2000s--- a sort of stripped down, simplified GB36.* The then-dealer in our marina sold one of them.* But even then GB could not sell them competitively.* So they terminated the model.

Yes, there are lots of people who bemoan the demise of the "dependable diesel cruiser" which is how GBs were marketed in the heyday of their previous models (GB has never called their boats "trawlers.")* But despite all the gnashing of teeth and the predictions that GB is doing themselves in by abandoning this "market" the reality is that this market no longer exists.* All the people bemoaning the demise of the "classic" GBs have old ones.** They are in no more position to buy a new GB than I am.* You can't make money offering products to people who want them but can't afford to buy them.

So while GB is happy to sell boats in the US and certainly makes an effort to do so, they (I'm told) no longer view the US as their primary market.* Regions I have seen described as their primary areas of interest are tne Middle East, Russia, China (PRC), and Southeast Asia.* Outside of the current economic worldwide slump, which is showing signs of recovery now, these regions are where the big money is (and big profits).* In Xiamen, China, where I spent a couple of months this year, property development firms are creating huge residential-marina complexes, massive things with dredged-out lagoons, big individual homes and condo-style residences, marinas, etc.* These developments are advertised on billboards all over the island, as are several major boat builders.* Sea Ray billboards are all over the place as are----- Grand Banks billboards.* And of course, the Nordhavn plant is in Xiamen.* Factory-direct pricing

Sure, there are a lot of affordable trawler-type boats being made.* But in these new markets, from what I've observed and been told by people who live in these regions, you don't buy a Chevy if you have or can beg, borrow, or steal the money to buy a Porsche.

So the boats GB builds today are tailored for the buyers in these areas, not so much the US and Canada.* The principle requirements in these "new money" regions is speed, flash, status, and brand recognition.* The road traffic in Xiamen, which is a very fast-growing city and has vehicle traffic comparable to almost any same-size US city, is comprised almost entirely of new vehicles. * There are lots of VWs, Lexus, Volvo and other similar up-market brands.* There are also tons of Land Rover Discoveries (called the LR3 in the US), Range Rovers, and Porsches.* Xiamen has a Bentley dealership, a Ferrari dealership, and a Maserati dealership and you see these things on the road in course of a day's driving around.

Hence the pod-drive GB41, the fast GB47, and the Aleutian.* From what I gather from the GB owners forum there are more sales of new GBs even in Europe now than in the US.* The "dependable diesel cruiser" days, at least for Grand Banks, are over.* They have chosen to leave that market to the low-cost Chinese builders.* Whether this proves to be a smart move in the long run remains to be seen, but given the rapidly shifting movement of wealth on the planet, I would say it is providing they can continue to create the kind of boats the people in these markets who can afford to buy them want.* What seems to be a "confusing" lineup of boats to people here apparently makes all sorts of sense to the people who are actually in a position to buy these boats.* And for the* most part, they are not in the US.



-- Edited by Marin on Thursday 24th of December 2009 02:01:07 PM

JohnP wrote:

*
SeaHorse II wrote:

<a>"Adagio" is a 1983 model, the builders plate says she was built in Hong Kong. A Grand Banks owner on my dock says my boat appears to be built by the same people who made his.</a>

Click to expand...

*
FWIW, American Marine (Grand Banks) had closed their Kowloon Yard across the bay from Hong Kong by 1983.* Also, American Marine never did any fiberglass work in Kowloon, only wood.* All the fiberglass GBs, Lagunas, Eastbays. and Aleutians have been made in the company's Singapore yard, and more recently in the additional yard they built across the Strait in Malaysia.* Most of the wood GBs were made in the original Kowloon yard although some wood boats were made in the Singapore yard as well until the company switched entirely to fiberglass construction in the mid-70s.

*

Forklift thought Walt was interested in the money side of the investment. Would it be worth it to pay the premium price? All Jaguars, Cadillacs and Mercedes cars become junkers barely worth anything in the end and so do premium boats. If you buy a boat new and sell in 5 years you may not suffer any more loss (or gain) whether you bought premium or low end but sooner or later the loss of the money "invested" in the premium product will have to be borne by somebody. The steep part of the value curve and it's place in time varies a lot between brands and products. I suspect that a 20 to 25 yr old Bayliner may be worth about the same in 5 or 10 years as it is now, making it a very good buy for someone looking for that type of boat. For example: A well maintained 15 yr old Cadillac is probably a better buy than a new one. A well maintained 15 yr old Grand Banks may not be on the steep part of the depreciation yet but sooner or later it will be. That is the time not to own a GB**** .. when its on the steep part of the value curve. I see that Nordic Tugs seem to have reciently probably been on the steep part of thier curve as they have become affordable to me now, however that could be mostly due to the bad market.
Somebody criticized GBs for being wet boats. From what I've seen and heard it must be true but I think it has little or nothing to do w the plum stem. The fact that the GBs are heavy, wide boats w low freeboard and a sharp knuckle well below the cap rail makes them "wet".

Eric Henning

Eric--- I think you are accurate with your whole post, including the wet boat part.

You're correct, a new GB will depreciate pretty fast, although perhaps not quite as fast as some other makes. Here is the website for the "For Sale" board at our local GB brokerage in Bellingham http://www.nwexplorations.com/brokerage.cfm The prices are still pretty good (for the seller) but they are still considerably below the new price even accounting for inflation of the dollar over the years. The only reason to buy a new GB (or any new boat) is if you want to own a new boat. There are certainly advantages to this, particularly if you a) have the money and b) plan to keep the boat for a long, long time.

We paid almost twice in dollars for our boat in 1998 than it sold for new in 1973. But that's not an apples to apples comparison because 1973 dollars were worth a hell of a lot more than 1998 dollars. So in terms of actual value the boat had considerably less of it 25 years after it was built. I don't have the financial knowledge to calculate how much.

A GB "classic" hull gives a pretty wet ride indeed, but it's nothing to to with the nearly plumb stem as you correctly say. It's because there is not much flare to the bow. In Bellingham Bay, where the wind even on a no-wind day seems to always blow twenty knots, the prevailing wind and wave direction is from the southwest. Some of the destinations we regularly go to require quartering into the waves, taking them on the port bow. So these very steep, closely-space whitecaps come foaming in on us, wham into that fairly vertical forebody and with little flare to deflect them down they shoot straight up into the air at which point the wind catches them and blows them onto the boat. It is routine that we cross Bellingham Bay on a warm, sunny, no-cloud day with all three windshield wipers going the whole time.

The boat is wet even heading directly into the waves if it's windy enough and the waves are large enough--- say three to four feet or more. Same deal--- the bow plows into these very steep wind waves, both side of the bow throw the water up, and he wind catches it and blows it onto the deck and into the pilothouse windows. So all three wipers are on again.

This happens only at the bow.* The movement of the hull through waves, even when rolling pretty severely, does not slop up spray or water onto the boat along the length of the hull.

My assumption as to why the GB has this characteristic is that the hulls were first built of wood, and I presume building a wood framed and planked hull with a lot of reverse curve or flare to the upper part of the bow is a much more complex--- and expensive--- task than building a hull with a "conventional" hull curve.* You would know more about that than I do, however. * So since the fiberglass GBs used hull molds that were patterned exactly after the wood hulls, the hulls had the same characteristics.* And since buyers liked the aesthetics and the "wet ride" thing didn't seem to be an issue with them, the company elected not to change the shape as the years went on.

So far as I can tell, the bow flare did not change noticeably-- or at all---when they went to the new hull molds for the GB36 and GB42 in 1988. The boats got a little longer, a little wider, and a little taller but I don't believe the actual hull shape changed at all. We chartered '91 GB36 prior to buying our own boat and it had the same characteristics on windy days with waves.

In fact, as they started putting larger and larger engines into GBs starting in the 90s, a curved spray rail down near the waterline at the bow became a standard feature on any GB with a total engine power over--- I think---- 400 hp. Or maybe more. Whatever, it was installed to help knock down the bow wave when the boat was being driven fast and reduce the amount of spray being blown onto the boat.

Here is the most head-on shot I have of our boat, and you can see how little flare there is to the sides of the bow.* The waves just shoot right up that hull and into the wind.




-- Edited by Marin on Thursday 24th of December 2009 04:44:39 PM

Marin wrote:


JohnP wrote:

*
SeaHorse II wrote:

<a>"Adagio" is a 1983 model, the builders plate says she was built in Hong Kong. A Grand Banks owner on my dock says my boat appears to be built by the same people who made his.</a>

Click to expand...

*
FWIW, American Marine (Grand Banks) had closed their Kowloon Yard across the bay from Hong Kong by 1983.* Also, American Marine never did any fiberglass work in Kowloon, only wood.* All the fiberglass GBs, Lagunas, Eastbays. and Aleutians have been made in the company's Singapore yard, and more recently in the additional yard they built across the Strait in Malaysia.* Most of the wood GBs were made in the original Kowloon yard although some wood boats were made in the Singapore yard as well until the company switched entirely to fiberglass construction in the mid-70s.

*
The connection to the people who built the GBs is a bit remote, but researching the Halvorsen site and the history of the yardway Marine builders in Hong Kong seems to point to some American Marine folks working on the Kong and Halvorsens.* I will try and post a clipping from the article and a link to the site.* John P* "Adagio"* Toms River NJ


*

JohnP wrote:The connection to the people who built the GBs is a bit remote, but researching the Halvorsen site and the history of the yardway Marine builders in Hong Kong seems to point to some American Marine folks working on the Kong and Halvorsens.* I will try and post a clipping from the article and a link to the site.* John P* "Adagio"* Toms River NJ

Click to expand...

You're right.* One of the newer participants on the Grand Banks Owners Forum is Shing Kong, whose father was one of the first marine engineers hired by American Marine, and went on to become the "Kong" in Kong and Halvorsen.* Shing has been providing us with a remarkable history of GB as well as lots of photos taken during the heyday of the AM Kowloon Yard.

*

American Marine's activities spawned a number off offshoots, and people who used to work there went on to other boat-building endeavors when American Marine moved all their operations to Singapore.* There was even a 28' "Grand Banks" that was built in the old AM yard in Kowloon by a group headed by one of the Newton brothers, the family that founded American Marine.* The "GB28" (wood) has most of the same characteristics of the GB32 and was probably made by some of the same shipwrights who had worked at the yard when American Marine had it.* Only a handful were made--- one of our members from Scandinavia has one that that prompted Shing's story about it.

*

Shing is a remarkable source of information on GBs early history---- he's become a great asset to the GB owner's site.

Marin wrote:

Eric--- I think you are accurate with your whole post, including the wet boat part.

------------------------------------Edit---------------------------

It's because there is not much flare to the bow.* It is routine that we cross Bellingham Bay on a warm, sunny, no-cloud day with all three windshield wipers going the whole time.
------------------------------------Edit------------------------------

This happens only at the bow.* The movement of the hull through waves, even when rolling pretty severely, does not slop up spray or water onto the boat along the length of the hull.
------------------------------------Edit------------------------------

In fact, as they started putting larger and larger engines into GBs starting in the 90s, a curved spray rail down near the waterline at the bow became a standard feature on any GB with engines over--- I think---- 250 hp. Or maybe 300. Whatever, it was installed to help knock down the bow wave when the boat was being driven fast and reduce the amount of spray being blown onto the boat.

-- Edited by Marin on Thursday 24th of December 2009 04:31:50 PM

Click to expand...

I purposely edited out some of Marin's quote, only to better explain the performance of my boat. His description (edited above) describes my boat's performance to a tee.

This was one of my reasons for starting this thread. As far as 32' Trawlers are concerned, there's not a dime's worth of difference between a GB and an IG. (Island Gypsy)****** Oh, Oh! SEE! It's all in the name!

Check the spray rail below


*


-- Edited by SeaHorse II on Thursday 24th of December 2009 05:11:43 PM

Marin wrote:


JohnP wrote:The connection to the people who built the GBs is a bit remote, but researching the Halvorsen site and the history of the yardway Marine builders in Hong Kong seems to point to some American Marine folks working on the Kong and Halvorsens.* I will try and post a clipping from the article and a link to the site.* John P* "Adagio"* Toms River NJ

Click to expand...

You're right.* One of the newer participants on the Grand Banks Owners Forum is Shing Kong, whose father was one of the first marine engineers hired by American Marine, and went on to become the "Kong" in Kong and Halvorsen.* Shing has been providing us with a remarkable history of GB as well as lots of photos taken during the heyday of the AM Kowloon Yard.

*My friends boat is an Admirality50 built my American Marine in 1969, he has owned this boat since the early 70's and she has become an beloved member of his family. She is a ketch motorsailor with an awesome great cabin aft.* American Marine and of course GrandBanks build high quality beautiful boats.* I am glad a little of it has rubbed off on "Adagio".* However I will always be jealous of the GB owner network and world reknown name.*** Happy Holidays!* JEP*

American Marine's activities spawned a number off offshoots, and people who used to work there went on to other boat-building endeavors when American Marine moved all their operations to Singapore.* There was even a 28' "Grand Banks" that was built in the old AM yard in Kowloon by a group headed by one of the Newton brothers, the family that founded American Marine.* The "GB28" (wood) has most of the same characteristics of the GB32 and was probably made by some of the same shipwrights who had worked at the yard when American Marine had it.* Only a handful were made--- one of our members from Scandinavia has one that that prompted Shing's story about it.

*

Shing is a remarkable source of information on GBs early history---- he's become a great asset to the GB owner's site.



*

SeaHorse II wrote:

As far as 32' Trawlers are concerned, there's not a dime's worth of difference between a GB and an IG. (Island Gypsy)

Click to expand...

The GB 32 never acquired a particularly powerful engine and so never had the spray deflector added to the forward part of the hull near the waterline.* I don't see such a structure on the boat in your photo either unless it's hidden inside the bow wave.* The long "strip" near the waterline near the stern I have always heard referred to as a rub rail.* All GBs and most other kinds of boats have these, but that is not the structure I was referring to.* To see what I was talking about open the Northwest Explorations link I included in an earlier post.* Some of the GBs depicted have them--- it's particularly obvious on the 1992 GB36 at the bottom of the page.

As to the dime's worth of difference, I've been on a few IGs and was not all that impressed with the cabinetry and the quality of teak used in the boat.* But that is a totally subjective opinion.


-- Edited by Marin on Thursday 24th of December 2009 07:22:10 PM

Marin wrote:I don't see such a structure on the boat in your photo either unless it's hidden inside the bow wave.*

I've been on a few IGs and was not all that impressed with the cabinetry and the quality of teak used in the boat.*

-- Edited by Marin on Thursday 24th of December 2009 07:22:10 PM

Click to expand...

The spray rail is inside the bow wave and I would put the teak on my boat up against any 36 GB. Old or new. It was one of the reasons I went with the 32 IG instead of the GB.
I looked at about 6 GB 32s and none of them held a candle to the IG 32. My humble opinion, of course. Here's a few shots of the bow spray rail.

*


-- Edited by SeaHorse II on Thursday 24th of December 2009 11:35:25 PM

-- Edited by SeaHorse II on Thursday 24th of December 2009 11:51:44 PM