Powercat trawlers vs traditional Trawlers

My wife and I now have been living on board for 18 years. The first 14 we were sailing to various parts of the world. Since our mast was not very handy for inland routes and we decided to now just explore the coast and the Bahamas/Caribean we started to search for a trawler. There are so many choices....all of them with pros and cons. With a bit of cat apprehension we chose an Endeavour44 power cat. Wow, all those negative comments we got from the mono crowd! From structural concerns to, "it can flip over in a big wave" stuff. From “slips will cost more” to “you can't find slips at all.” The surprise was when we talked with powercat owners. We got a completely different picture. Stability, economy, fast if you want to go fast (we are perfectly happy going 7 knots), and seaworthy…I can only speak for the Endeavour44. We have found the boat stable, and fully capable in handling busy ocean. I hate it when asked “what kind of seas can she take?” I usually say that we are fine in BIG seas with the wind and when we are against the wind…big spray, but the boat is fine. The reality is that with prudent weather planning the Endeavour does a very good job in the ocean. What about the myth about slip availability and cost? It is true that many marinas do not have slips wide enough for the 18 foot beam of the Endeavour, but that said, we have never had a problem finding a slip (usually a T-head) and have never paid extra because we were a cat. In the 4 years living on our Endeavour we have had zero structural or construction issues. I think many of those issues brought up come from the early era of cats when manufacturers didn’t know quite how to make a sturdy cat. Not so now.

I am not at all against traditional trawlers. The looks and their proven record is unmatched. That is a matter of taste. But I do take issue with the myths about power cats. They can be considered another form of trawler with their pro’s and cons.

How about the pros?

For us, they significantly out weigh the cons. The interior is everything your mate could desire. Roomy (3 queen size staterooms in a 44ft trawler!), luxurious quarters and very economical twin hull efficiency (about 3gph at 8knots}. You really have to live aboard to appreciate the differences. A power cat is a roomy, seaworthy home on the water.

Wow, I am sounding like a trawler cat enthusiast!... which I guess I have become. Yes, we live on a cat trawler and just want to be accepted with the rest of you! By the way, after 18 years of living on-board age has, reluctantly, forced us to change chapters in our lives. We will be looking for a smaller trawler, cat or not, for week-end anchoring in the Chesapeake and the like. Any suggestions?

We did create a 15 minute video showing our Endeavour cat that we are selling for the downgrade. We think the video points out the features that you should consider when buying any trawler, cat or conventional, you plan for coastal/Bahamas, Caribean cruising. Take a look. Endeavourcatforsale's Photos | SmugMug.


TonyL

Tony: Yes, you do sound like a trawler-cat enthusiast. I have to say that the 44 Endeavour was one of our considerations when we bought our present boat. Draft, stability, space, and particularly the family-like atmosphere of Endeavour owners. I must have spent days photoshopping pilothouse mods on the 44 to smooth it out a little. It was great to see Bob Vincent at the the Miami show with a new re-styled 44. It's proud freeboard dwarfed the adjacent Leopard. While so many boat builders bit the dust, Bob Vincent did what he had to and brought Endeavour through the economic mess, even introducing an electric day boat in the process. That company can build boats. Good luck with the sale.

I spent about 4 years considering a TC44 before buying one last July. Prior to buying I was able to communicate with a number of TC 44 owners and have found they all love them.

I've spent a lot of time on your boat at the Annapolis Boat Show. If I had known it would become available, I might have waited.

Best of luck with selling your boat.

I was just looking through my Photobucket album and found this example of a 44 with a Endeavour 40 Pilothouse. I teased Bob that he must have considered it, but you can see why he didn't.

I can't stomach a cat design for anything, power or sail. Other than perhaps a Hobie Cat which is certainly fun to sail. But outside of that I find multihulls (the trimarans aren't any better in this respect) too non-boat-like for my taste, particualrly aesthetically.

The handful of people I have met over the years who have cats, power or sail, absolutely love them. The flip side of that is that in several decades of being involved with boats, here and in Hawaii, and in the last 14 years of being involved with cruising here in the PNW, the number of cat owners--- power and sail--- I have come across has been just that, a handful.

Thirty years ago I read articles and heard multi-hull enthusiasts preach about how in the not-too-distant future all boats would be multi-hulls. The pros simply far outweighed the cons, they claimed. Thirty years later, the number of multi-hull boats I see is just as miniscule as it was back then.

So I think it's a real niche design, favored by a few but largely ignored by the vast majority of boaters and boat manufacturers. And I expect it will continue to be this way. The few I've been on have not impressed me with their layouts or accomodations except in one respect. They all had absolutely mostrous main cabins for the size of the boat, and that was very nice. But everything else was too much of a compromise: small and in the case of some spaces, awkward to get to.

For people who really want the attributes a multi-hull offers, they are understandably popular. But that market, I think, is very, very small.

healhustler and TonyL,

I've considered the Endeavour44 power cat and it exceeds my needs as it now does for TonyL. Although it has the hull efficiency that cats have, you know for my desire for solar-diesel-electric propulsion I need even more efficiency. Tony, this might be of interest to you as we both come from a sailing background. Did you know that Chris White, the guru of fast sailing cats and tris also designed a power cat that on just a pair of 140 hp diesels can run at 35 kt. The power cat is called the Buzzard's Bay and is 34' in length. Here is the site Buzzards Bay 34 power catamaran | Buzzards Bay Cats - Power Catamarans

Now if you want to down size even more but want hull efficiency and an extra $250K left in your wallet, here is a great new design brought to you by Larry Graf of Glacier Bay fame. Aspen Power Catamarans | Welcome This 28' boat I've crunched some numbers on, ask if your interested.

SeaHorse II said:

(But am really getting tired of saying that!)

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Just curious, does this boat have pleasing lines in your book, or too modern of lines for your taste?


This is the only picture I have of the stern.

deckofficer said:

Just curious, does this boat have pleasing lines in your book, or too modern of lines for your taste?


This is the only picture I have of the stern.

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It's a little more modern than I like.

Well, you know what I think of it, Bob. Gimme my hybrid Aspen.

I've always liked the concept of the powercat. I especially like the layout of the 41 PDQ. If it's space, speed and efficiency you're longing for, it's hard to beat a cat.

One thing I've wondered, do you have enough rudder for it to be controllable in one engine at normal cruise power?

I personally prefer my own Passagemakerlite monohull trawler designed by Tad Roberts, but I am aware that lots of people prefer powercats for reasons of space and movement. On movement I also prefer the rolling of a monohull than the to me unnatural movement of a multihull, but again that differs from person to person. So for my job I build Power cat trawlers here in Thailand. We are presently busy with a 62 footer designed by Albert Nazarov of Albatross marine, we will launch in about 6 month and then hopefully start with the new design, the Astrolab, or the smaller 45 footer. With a European-South African management with deliver custom build boats at a competitive price.
https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B20MexSJgcP_YWpVblJoMnlWc1k/edit?usp=sharing


https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B20MexSJgcP_ZEJ5em9uRmlkQTg/edit?usp=sharing
https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B20MexSJgcP_MGJzR1pDSk5QZ3c/edit?usp=sharing

Al, go to the site and bring up "Media" and read the reviews. Larry tries to plan for journalists to test that little 28 footer when the wind is blowing and the chop is high. If it isn't crazy weather they go seek out the ferry wakes.

SeaHorse II said:

It's a little more modern than I like.

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Would you like it more if you knew it can run 6.25 kt on less than 5 hp? Or on a modest 150 hp breaks 20 kt.

FlyWright said:

One thing I've wondered, do you have enough rudder for it to be controllable in one engine at normal cruise power?

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Can't wait to hear the feedback on this question from cat owners, but I should say that in the case of the PDQ 34, the longtime PDQ broker Dick Tuschick here in Stuart had a favorite trick where you'd be moving along at speed and he'd just pull one throttle back to zero and no steering compensation was needed. Many PDQ owners do run on one engine at a time on long hauls, but I bet single engine docking must be a challenge on any cat.

Bob: Positive feedback from the most prolific forum membership usually demand forward raked windows like this Aspen C-90 North-Sea. I hope Larry doesn't mind my playing with his design.

Mea Culpa

Hey all,

Gotta fall on my sword here. The OP posted by Tony L was originally submitted as his first of two total posts. As most of you longtime forum members know any post from a newbie containing a hyperlink automatically get redirected by our forum spam controls for us mods to have a peek first and decide if it's spam or not.

I read his post and noticed he mentioned the boat was for sale and the link lead to his video about it. I made the decision that it would be better off in the classified section so re-assigned it here. Without going into detail, which would be inappropriate for me to discuss, some feelings got bruised that normally would not be.

I am moving this thread to the General section so you guys can carry on as if it was a normal thread and I will PM the OP and suggest he post an ad in the classified section if he desires to advertise it here.

I apologize to all involved for any confusion this caused and to the OP for taking the liberty for putting this in the Classified.

Healhustler--- Your skills continue to amaze me (seriously). And I must say that in this case, what you have done has actually improved the look of the boat. You know my feeling about wannabe windows but in this case the original design aesthetics of the boat are so poor (in MY opinion) that your alteration has actually added interest to the look of the boat.

We had a helicopter pilot in Hawaii who in describing the inexpensive, unreliable helicopter he was forced to fly, used a phrase I had never heard before: "You can only polish a turd so much." Well, I think your alteration has polished it a little bit more.

Never herd of polishing a turd? I'll bet you heard of making a silk purse out of a sow's ear.

deckofficer said:

Never herd of polishing a turd? I'll bet you heard of making a silk purse out of a sow's ear.

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This was many years ago and I had not heard the polishing a turd phrase before. The silk purse/sow's ear, yes, I've known that one all my life it seems.

Thanks, Marin. After your comment, I had to go back and look at it myself. Maybe you're right.....maybe it's one of those times the forward rake works. Still, one could GB the boat a bit....you know, like this Aspen "Classic". Looks a bit like a Rosborough now.

I guess it's all in the eye of the beholder, and I am quite fussy re the shapes of boats I like and don't like, but I must admit, cats are so different, and operate according to a different set of physics, so I can actually appreciate their positive attributes, particularly their stability, speed with less power than mono hulls, and the room. Of course the latter can also be one of the negatives, because of berthing costs.

The Aussies seem to have a bit of a flare for designing what I and many others consider pretty yet functional multihulls, and here are some good examples. Seawind also make sailing cats.

Seawind Catamarans

Scimitar Marine - Award Winning Power Catamarans

http://www.boatpoint.com.au/showroom/details.aspx?R=619894&Silo=Spec&Vertical=Boat&Ridx=0&eapi=2

healhustler said:

Bob: Positive feedback from the most prolific forum membership usually demand forward raked windows like this Aspen C-90 North-Sea. I hope Larry doesn't mind my playing with his design.

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I have to admit, that looks a lot better to me!

deckofficer said:

Would you like it more if you knew it can run 6.25 kt on less than 5 hp? Or on a modest 150 hp breaks 20 kt.

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No....I'm into "form" as well as "function" and the "form" of this boat is not to my liking.

Yup most cat are hard to look at but consider how few there are. Even w the increased popularity there are very few. And as w everything else there are good reasons.

manyboats said:

Yup most cat are hard to look at but consider how few there are. Even w the increased popularity there are very few. And as w everything else there are good reasons.

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WOW! We're back on the same page again, Eric!

Steve Dashew tells about the realities of multi hulls "tripping" in big seas, whether power or sail in his 1220 page tome "Surviving the Storm." In a sailing cat if you turn turtle forget about returning to the upright position.

Last year I saw a lovely NZ built 65' power cat in Alaska. If one follows the weather and avoids it, cat's "tripping" could be rendered mute most of the time.

But the poor engine access while underway in a Cat is enough to keep me away. I love the ER space a trawler can offer as do many others, especially as agility has dropped as the years pile on.

sunchaser said:

But the poor engine access while underway in a Cat is enough to keep me away. I love the ER space a trawler can offer as do many others, especially as agility has dropped as the years pile on.

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Amen, brother!

Selene's catamaran offering:

I'm glad to see a discussion about cats on this forum, even though the threads about cats are usually as awkward as most of the designs. These are ungainly things, for the most part, and must be a real challenge for the architect to design in living and maintenance spaces while keeping in mind that the fundamental design advantages of any multi-hull has to be preserved in the finished product. Many of the production cats do pretty well in economy and speed, but lots of them have compromised bridge-deck clearances that sneeze (throw water out and forward from the tunnel) in moderate seas. Of course, the heavier you load it, the worse it gets.

Then, there is making them market-able, if not appealing. Frankly, outside of a few custom builds, I haven't seen what I'd call a good looking cat or tri-hull, at least not on the level that I appreciate so many mono-hulls. I've been aboard "impressive" multi-hulls, but not beautiful multi-hulls. The best looking cats I've seen are the Buzzard's Bay, the Maine Cat 47 (without fly-bridge), PDQ 41, Fontaine Pajot 40, Manta, and with some reserves, the Lagoon 43 and 44 (cut off the fly bridge here too). The most impressive has been the Pacific Expedition series, which is unapologetically brutish, massive, heavy and even has great maintenance spaces.

There are good, usable interiors in cats, but outside of the Maine Cat 47, that feeling of richness that one gets when surrounded by a well wooded mono-hull environment is just not there in anything I've been aboard. Weight concerns put real limits on how much you can beautify the sub-50' or so cats. Some of them do a nice job in framing doorways and windows, but the predominant feeling for me is hard, stark, homogenized fiberglass. It doesn't feel very boaty, and I want boaty.

If money were no object, I'd probably build the cat I want, but I'd do it with the understanding that part of the compromise would be appreciating the vessel for the advantages it has, and let go of any idea about the final product ever being something to make me swoon.

Meanwhile, as awkward as the Aspen looks to many of you, I guess I must have lowered my expectations with regard to multi-hull styling, because comparatively at least, the design looks appealing to me. I just hope they don't put a fly-bridge on it.

Photos below: Buzzards Bay 34, Lagoon 43, Maine Cat 47, PDQ 41

Like the sail and cruising forums, there seems to be a cat vs mono mind set here on TF. As I've mentioned before, boaters as a lot are a very conservative group when it comes to their vessels. The naval designer that wants to put to use what he learned in school to enrich the boating experience quickly finds out that he must either conform to "what looks right" or strike out on his own. Steve Dashew, Larry Graf, Chris White, Reuben Trane, Schionning, and Newick to name a few have done just that, and I'm one sailor that is glad they did.

This is a bit like deja vu for me in the hot rod circles. I declared on those forums that I wanted what I call the Swiss Army knife of hot rods. A car that could corner better than a Corvette, have straight line acceleration that exceeds super car status, give a comfortable ride with the engine having impeccable street manners (no snarling, barking, cammed up, knuckle dragging engine) with a nice idle, and mid 20's mpg.

You guys want to know why as a new member here on TF I'm so laid back? It is because of all the flaming and attacks I received on the hot rod forums for the above concept, a hot rod that would do it all. True functionality. I started with a clean slate and decided I was going to work with The Laws of Physics instead of against it. For 40 years I worked against it like all the other hot rodders, going to nastier engines that had the street manners of a gang banger to move my 4000 lb ride, but not on this build. Mass, or lack of it, is the starting point. My rod weighs 1790 lbs, about 1/2 the weight of a Corvette. I then mounted the engine and transmission so low in the frame rails that I had to fabricate an oil pan to give me enough ground clearance. When you lower the CG to this degree, the CG is at spindle height and thus there is no moment-arm above the center of your wheels that would create body lean in the turns. To address a comfy ride I set up a Jag IRS for the rear. Since my ride is flyweight it doesn't take much hp to make it move, so I built a 350 sbc block with a 400 crank for 383 cid and built it in a way that it produces a lot of torque at very low rpm, perfect for tall gearing and good mpg. I probably gave up 120 hp on the high end to generate 516 lb/ft at just 2800 rpm on the low end. But since my car was so light, I could give up some hp.

The results of thinking outside the box produced a hot rod that does in fact do it all. High 10 second 1/4 mile, corners like a Lotus Super 7, a sweet purring engine and cushy ride, and on trips I broke 30 mpg. And I do take long trips.

So, I'm all for navel designers that think outside the box and support their efforts and don't care about the "image", I want my Swiss Army knife of the maritime flavor now.

This is the ride described above, and be rest assured I don't care what people think of how it looks, it does what I wanted.


This gives you an idea of how much torque it has at such low rpm. This is a steep grade and clutch is out in 5th gear, smooth as silk.


This spring I put a different engine in it. A Dart 427, and is now a 9 second street driven ride, being able to blast from a stand still to over 150 mph in under 10 seconds.