Totally Trawler

Marin wrote:


Keith wrote:

Well duh! If your chain gets straight, you don't have enough chain out! You need to let out more, tie on some nylon rode if you have it, put out a sentinel, etc.

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Well, duh!* If your ship uses chain for rode--- and I'm not aware of any military ships of any size that do otherwise--- and you've got it all out and it's still bar tight, guess what's gonna happen?

There's theory and there's reality.* Best not to confuse them when things go all to sh*t.

*

Then you were dangerously unprepared. Either you didn't have enough chain on board to weather the conditions you went out in, or didn't pay attention to the weather and went out when you shouldn't.

*

Keith wrote:Then you were dangerously unprepared. Either you didn't have enough chain on board to weather the conditions you went out in, or didn't pay attention to the weather and went out when you shouldn't.

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Okay, then how much chain is enough?* In the case of the USCG cutter that goes out into nasty weather to rescue folks and might get caught in a situation where they have to use the anchors to hold them off a lee shore, how much chain should they have if they are going to consider every possible scenario?* Five hundred feet?* A thousand feet?* Half a mile?* One mile?* Three miles?*

I don't know how much chain a cutter carries but I suspect it's more than the 250' carried by many trawler owners.* I'm guessing that, since they have a pretty good pile of statistics on the sorts of winds and waves they have to go out in, the vessels and their equipment are designed and sized to cope with the "typical" extremes they may encounter.* Obviously there is a point of diminishing return.* You can put a mile of chain on your boat but then your boat has to be set up to carry and handle it which will probably seriously compromise some other aspect of the boat's ability to carry out its mission.* If your boat is a fast planing or semi-planing rescue craft, the primary goal is to get where you need to go fast.* Installing an anchor locker and windlass to deal with a mile of chain is probably going to defeat the go-fast ability to quite a degree.

So I don't know how much chain the cutter in question had, but I'd be willing to bet the amount was based on a fairly realistic idea of what it would have to cope with.* But storms have a bad habit of not adhering to the instructions that came with your anchor and rode.* So the cutter let out every inch of rode it had and both rodes still went bar tight and eventually broke.

Armchair quarterbacking is easy, safe, and fun.* But I suspect if you'd gone out to that cutter while they were trying to figure out how to get themselves off the lee shore after both their anchor chains broke and lectured them on how they should have installed another 1,000 feet of chain to cope with the conditions before going out in an attempt to rescue the boat crew they were responding to, they'd have told you to piss off.


*

"Either you didn't have enough chain on board to weather the conditions you went out in, or didn't pay attention to the weather and went out when you shouldn't."

You're absolutely 100% correct. Sometimes our military and other armed forces go out when they shouldn't. But you know what? That's what they pay them to do and they volunteered to go do it. They go out when every reasonable person knows they shouldn't. Thank God or whoever your supreme being is, that there are people like that. People who will sacrifice their safety and sometimes their lives to help others. Our Coast Guard whom we see fairly often, is the most visible example of that. Can they prepare for every possible emergency they may face? No. It's not reasonable to think they can. They equip and train themselves to do the best they can with the equipment they have. Sometimes they get in situations that bad things happen no matter what they do.

I have the choice to take my boat out or stay in a safer location. I generally sit it out, which I did in Nanaimo last Saturday, 8' seas in the Strait of Georgia, and again on Monday, 27 knot SE winds. No problem for me. Had there been a boat in distress, the Coasties would have gone out there, no questions asked.

Ken
PS, as I type this there is a 50 some odd foot Canadian CG cutter tied to the dock next to mine. Remind me to tell them thanks again tomorrow when I see them.

Here we go... you guys are just arguing for the sake of arguing. Did I say anything bad about our military????

Marin, you're just going to argue theoretical **** forever. I stick by my statement. If you're not prepared to anchor, don't. Head up into the weather. I don't understand what point you are now trying to make except that I was wrong.

Hey guys,

Cool your jets and look up this site.
1.* Click "west marine rocna anchor"
2.* Click "Rocna anchor independent reviews"
3.* Go to the bottom of page and click on "anchor articles"
4.* Click on "Catenary and scope in anchor rode"

As an alternative try "peter smith .net.nz"

He says at one point "We mighnt conclude that chain is entirely pointless , and 100% rope may be used". He points out that other elements of rode performance may be enhanced but not holding performance. I was wrong** .. the stuff I was talking about was not in the Rocna site but I got there through the Rocna site. I think the man who wrote "Catenary and scope in anchor rode" is the designer of the Rocna anchor. This is high level anchor technology.

Eric Henning

I thought there was a pretty clear chain of thought:

One person citing the military ship that had two anchors out, stretched their chain tight, lost all cantenary and broke loose.

Someone stated that if they were stretched that tight then they should have had longer chain.

Then the question was raised, how much is enough?

Another person asking that if there wasn't cantenary in all chain rode when it was needed the most, then why have it?

Another person stating that if they were in that position then they should have stayed home.

And my comment that maybe they didn't have the option to stay home.

This is just my impression of what the posts said. And in my mind I don't see the argument for the sake of argument. It seems to follow for me. I don't think anyone is wrong. I think we all have different circumstances and we all solve them differently. I have 250 feet of all chain rode. I haven't seen any good argument against that. I did see two good arguments against a rope rode coming on the deck as they slid past me a few nights ago. Did they come loose because of the rope? probably not. Might they have stayed put with all chain? Maybe. I anchored 25 + years with combination rode. That wasn't wrong for the boat I had and the circumstances I was in.

Keith, you boat in hurricane country, I've already admitted I don't understand that. I do love the scenery in Galveston though, it is gorgeous.

Ken

"Okay, then how much chain is enough?"

About 200 ft will do , then the nylon would be added.

The big hassle is compared to a storm nylon rode the chain is really weak.

So if the weakest link is that ton of chain , why bother?

Of course IF you have the room a complete storm anchor can be deployed , and the chain simply to limit some swing in the gusts.

Keith wrote:

I stick by my statement. If you're not prepared to anchor, don't. Head up into the weather. I don't understand what point you are now trying to make except that I was wrong.

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I have no argument about your statement at all as it applies to us recreational boaters.* But the discussion got going when Eric stated that he did not realize chain could lose all its catenary.* I responded by citing the photo and example in Earl Hinz's book in which a USCG cutter tried to hold itself off a lee shore with both its anchors and the all-chain rodes went bar tight and broke.* Then you came in with what I interpreted as an implication that if the rode the cutter had on board wasn't adequate for the conditions, they shouldn't have gone out.* Or should have installed a more appropriate rode before it went out.

But I don't think there is anyone on this forum who would disagree with your statement that a boater should not go out into conditions he is not prepared to deal with, or should outfit his boat to safely deal with the conditions he's going to venture out into.

The folks in the USCG, Navy, etc. don't have the luxury of staying at home if the weather becomes extreme.* They have to try to manage with what they've got.*


-- Edited by Marin on Thursday 13th of August 2009 07:09:52 PM

nomadwilly wrote:

He points out that other elements of rode performance may be enhanced but not holding performance. I was wrong** .. the stuff I was talking about was not in the Rocna site but I got there through the Rocna site. I think the man who wrote "Catenary and scope in anchor rode" is the designer of the Rocna anchor. This is high level anchor technology.

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I read the article in its entirety and there's nothing Pete says that I would have any quarrel with.* His main point is that you don't need all-chain to experience good holding with the Rocna.* He never recommends AGAINST all chain.** In fact*as*you say*he*cites several advantages of all chain with regard to chafe protection and reducing boat swing under normal anchoring conditions.* *And the company's own instruction sheet that comes with their anchor when you buy one recommends all-chain.

Pete is looking at anchoring from a somewhat different perspective than most of us do.* His own cruising is in pretty heavy-duty waters, with high winds, sometimes deep anchoring depths, and exposed anchorages.* So his whole perspective-- and the motivation for his development of the Rocna in the first place--- is based on his own sailing experience in his own waters.* In fact he originally had no intention of marketing the Rocna at all.* He was just interested in keeping his own boat in place under the often tough conditions he encountered.

And Pete is the consumate product marketer.* Once he decided to put the Rocna into commercial production, he's lost no opportunity to promote it.* Many of his customers and potential customers are sailboaters, particularly in his part of the world, and these folks are much more concerned about weight on the boat than the typical trawler owner.* Hence his point that no matter what you attach to a Rocna--- all-chain, combination, or just nylon (although he doesn't recommend this)---- the anchor is going to hold like holy hell once it's set and won't*depend on the rode to ensure its holding power.* If I was trying to sell a new anchor type to some pretty discriminating customers*I'd say the same thing.

But even taking everything he says as gospel, there is no denying that using an all-chain rode in the conditions where all-chain is appropriate is certainly not going to reduce the Rocna's holding power and it may even enhance it under some conditions.* Which is why, I suspect, the company continues to recommend all-chain to the buyers of its anchors.

-- Edited by Marin on Thursday 13th of August 2009 07:16:23 PM

On my way back from Ketchikan I spent some time talking w a fisherman from Craig. We got into anchors and he wanted to know what I though of the Bruce. I told him about our recent discussion on anchors and he said another fisherman was cussin his Bruce so he offered him $50 for it and he really likes it. Most of the time he anchors in the same spots but he's experienced quite a number of gales and is real happy w his 70lb Bruce. His boat is only 9 tons so he would brobably be fine w a Navy type of 70lbs.
Marin, Ive been looking at that Rocna and it looks better all the time. I see West Marine has them now and that they are out of stock in some sizes. I still don't see how the boat half of an all chain rode can be justified. I think trawler owners just feel more like "trawler men" w all chain.

Eric Henning

Well, there's*a ton*of written material on the advantages of all-chain rode and it was written by people with a lot more experience in anchoring than*either of us*have.* So there's no point in my continuing to*try to explain why I and a zillion other boaters prefer to use it and why it is recommended by companies like Rocna.* It certainly has nothing to do with "feeling like a trawler man."* I know a number of sailboaters who use and prefer all-chain.* However their sailboats are of a configuration to deal with the weight.

I've said this plenty of times before---- all-chain is ideal for the conditions in which all-chain is ideal.* The PNW happens to be one of those places.* A combination rode is ideal for the conditions in which a combination rode is ideal.

If you feel all-chain is not the way to go, don't go that way.* Use whatever you believe will work the best for you.* We have a combination rode on our little fishing*boat because it's the only setup that makes sense.* But for our GB I completley understand the advantages of all-chain and believe it is the best setup for the conditions we anchor in.* The fact that the majority of boaters I see in this area do the same thing reinforces the decision we made to use all-chain, but it's not the reason we made the decision.

West Marine has carried the Rocna for awhile now.** They get them from Suncoast Marine, the Vancouver, BC manufacturer.* Given the extremely high*shipping costs for anything over 20 pounds from New Zealand, and given the growing demand for the Rocna in Canada*and*the US it made sense for Rocna to partner with a North American company to manufacture them for this market.* We bought ours directly from Suncoast--- we drove up to Vancouver one Saturday and picked it up.***So no shipping charge and--- apparently because the customs fellow at the border didn't think anchors are worth much--- no import duty either, which was nice since the cost of the Rocna far, far*exceeded the one-day duty-free limit for returning Americans.***This was prior to Suncoast's sales and distribution arrangement with West Marine.* So I don't know if one can still buy Rocnas direct from Suncoast or if they have to be purchased through West Marine now.

At the time we bought ours Rocna's were only available in galvanized steel.* I see by their website they now offer polished stainless anchors as well.


-- Edited by Marin on Friday 14th of August 2009 01:00:31 PM

Marin,
Well if Peter Smith says maybe we don't need any chain at all I think next time I anchor I'll try no chain and my Forfjord. Never had it in the water. I'll see if I can hook up at 3 to 1 scope and pull hard in reverse. In the end I think I'll get 85' of small HT chain and the appropriate winch. I think w the Forfjord even if the rode rotates one fluke remains in the sea bed and resetting isn't required. Whats your experience setting the Rocna? Does it sometimes drag more than 5 or 10' to set? Setting is my biggest problem w anchors. I think most of the reason is the extreemly varied sea bottoms we have up here. That could be related to the reason most all fishermen in this area use either the Forfjord or the Bruce. Never seen a Rocna on a fish boat.

Eric Henning

Given the cost of a Rocna, you probably never will see one on a fishboat Plus the Rocna is really designed for an open-ended bow pulpit and that doesn't seem to be a feature on many, if any, fishboats. It would be a very hard anchor to stow anywhere other than on a pulpit.* I think I've posted this picture before, but this is how the anchor*stows the best.* It's balanced to deploy which is why the shank is up in the air.* If I took the*chain*lock off the shank would actually sit higher.* All that's necessary to launch it is to start feeding chain out.

Keep in mind that Peter was talking about no chain at all with a Rocna. I don't know that he intended his comment to apply to other anchor types. There are some that seem to need the weight of the chain to pull the anchor down into a positon to dig in and set.

In our experience so far, the Rocna usually sets so hard it yaws the boat around when it hits the end of the chain when we're setting it. I have no idea how long it might drag before setting but based on the video and the way the anchor is designed to lie on its side and pivot its sharp point down into the bottom as soon as any pull is exerted on it, I'd say most of the time it's probably setting or at least digging in within the one meter that's claimed on the video.

The only exception so far has been the very soft bottom at Garden Bay in Pender Harbor. I wasn't confident the anchor had set well the first time so we hauled it up, moved a little farther from shore, and deployed it again. When we hauled it up it came up with what seemed like half the bottom of Garden Bay on it so it had obviously dug in. So maybe my fears were ungrounded, but it "felt" better the second time. We had two boats hanging on the Rocna on our Desolation Sound trip so I wanted to make sure we would stay put.

-- Edited by Marin on Friday 14th of August 2009 07:44:10 PM

Back to the original topic:

nomadwilly wrote:

60 tons, 58',* ...*Thorne Bay was honored with her presence this week. It's been fun this summer to meet the boaters comming through and see thier boats and this one I felt the need to share.

Hard to get more nautical than a crow's nest.* (See Eric's photos at the first post.)

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*


-- Edited by markpierce on Thursday 14th of October 2010 08:24:55 PM

Here is a different angle, leaving Pender Harbour a few years back.

Makes me wish*the boat-budget was four times greater.

nomadwilly wrote:

Fred,
My dad had a lobster yacht in Ariex. For those that aren't famillar w Airex its a foam for sandwich construction. You can tie a long strip of it in knots and untie it and it will be almost straight** ..* fantastic memory. Also has super adhesion to FRP. I wonder if anyone has ever built a boat out of Kevlar and Airex?

Eric Henning

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Eric, I think you'll find this vessel comes as close as possible to answering your question..?
http://www.earthrace.net/index.php?section=18

*

Eric, I think you'll find this vessel comes as close as possible to answering your question..?
http://www.earthrace.net/index.php?section=18

*

*

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just dont try to pit it up against a japanese whaling boat.... that one is sitting at the bottom of the Southern ocean

whalers-1
sea shepard -0

Not that I agree with whaling but those buffoons got what they had coming to them!

*

And I betcha that wonderful old boat has about 300 - 400 feet of chain rode. All serious world cruisers do too. I struggle with the logic of "expert" Smith and a rope rode when anchoring on rock and coral bottoms. Of course "expert" Smith is selling anchors and not selling chain --- so I now get it.*

To get back to the original post about true classic trawlers.* Why not talk about the*pro and cons of the desgin and the boat?*
*

*
A*boat like that takes a lot of time, money and care to keep.**Many of the trawler in the 60 and 70 had a narrow long hull with the pilot house pull back to mid ship, to be protect by the*high bow*and had a front masts. Our 58 had a front mast, put over the years they have become out of fashion so most front masts where taken down.*If you will notice the small wake she puts out which is probable at her normal cruising speed.* She is definilty full displacment and cuts through the water will a small wake.* We put a one foot soft wave at normal cruising speed of 7 to 10 knots.*****
*

*
That trawler is probable out fitted like most PNW long range trawler commercial and pleasure, and probable has 200 ft of chain will another 200 ft of line.* The windless I would like to have is a hydraulic drum with chain and cable which most commercial boats have, but they sure*are ugly.* We have 200 ft of chain and 200 ft of line, which I will have to replace as the china is getting rusty and the line is 15+ years old.* One* of my winter project is to let out all the chain and clean it up as the battery in the chain lock leaked on to some of the last part of the chian as your chine piles high.* All chain takes a deep chain lock*which many pleasure boats do not have a big/high enough chain locker.* We could probable added another 200 ft in the locker but the bow would be down as right now the boat is level at the water line.* It take a lot of time and money to plan and out fit a boat for the PNW, Canada to Alaska, and I am willing to be the owner of that trawler has done it right.

*


i am going to*out fit like the comercial trawler that go to Alaska every year.* If it good enough for them its good enough form me.*


-- Edited by Phil Fill on Friday 15th of October 2010 10:33:59 AM

-- Edited by Phil Fill on Friday 15th of October 2010 10:34:23 AM

So many boats have a rope rode/combination rode in the PNW that it's clear chain is not necessary. It's like Bruce anchors and Bayliners. They are everywhere so anyone that says they don't work needs to take inventory of what they've said. Serious boaters who do serious boating go forth in Bayliners and w combination rodes. They are among us and quite respected skippers at that. Many trawler skippers feel that trawlers are extra heavy duty and any excess of heavydutyness just makes them more "trawler" than otherwise. And to be more "trawler" among trawlers is like the bigger is better philosophy. Some of our PNW bottoms are rocky and one needs to more or less pay attention to the condition of their line so as not to be caught in a blow w a badly chaffed item. Most boaters use a combination rode and find it quite satisfactory. Some folks feel better w an all chain rode and feeling better is not only an option but quite necessary as yachting is supposed to be fun and feeling good is close enough to fun for me. Unless something unique comes up I think I'll leave this all chain talk forever.

Eric:* For those of us with 30 + ton vessels, and not Bayliners where chain weight is a penalty, an all chain rode* makes sense to me. My 3 Searays had all rope and no chain.

-- Edited by sunchaser on Friday 15th of October 2010 11:46:10 AM

If I had thought you guys weren't worn out arguing about anchors and rodes, I wouldn't have given life to this thread.* Sorry....

I don't understand what you guys are arguing about, maybe I'm missing something.*

You use all chain because it reduces your swing assuming you have catenary, which you will unless it is very windy.*

So, if my anchor roller is 20' above the bottom and I'm using nylon rode then I'll pay out 7:1 scope = 140'.* If that pulls tight which it is very likely to do, then I'll be about 138' away from my anchor horizontally, and I'll swing in a circle with a radius of 138' which is a circle with a diameter of 276'.

Now, if I use all chain, and I pay out 4:1 (assuming it isn't very windy) = 80', and I'm now roughly 77' from my anchor horizontally, calculated with the chain running in a straight line, however as I said earlier it isn't windy so the catenary makes it even less.* For arguments sake let's say 60', and now I'm swinging in*a circle with diameter of 120' which is less than half of that of a nylon rode.

Again, if I expect wind and I'm using all chain then I'll pay out 7:1 or more and make part of that a long snubber to act as a shock absorber in case the catenary comes out completely.* Every anchor I've ever used held in all but the most extreme circumstances at 7:1 or greater, and if it didn't then you need a bigger anchor and this argument is moot.

The point I'm making and I didn't see mentioned is that in a tight anchorage it helps me to know that I'll only move back 2 boat lengths from where I drop the hook using all chain, assuming moderate winds.* If the catenary comes out then you better be using a long snub otherwise it will snatch whatever hardware it is connected to right off the deck.

nomadwilly wrote:

So many boats have a rope rode/combination rode in the PNW that it's clear chain is not necessary.

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I think to say that chain is not necessary is a bad assumption to make if what you're saying is that ANY chain is not necessary.* I think a person is setting themselves up for failure if they go that route.*

To say all-chain is not necessary is more credible since the kind of rode a boater chooses is--- or should be--* dictated by the type of boat, the type of anchorages, and the type of weather that will be encountered.* The boats I am directly familiar with that have a combination rode in our marina do so primarily because of weight issues.* This tends to include many if not most sailboats and faster boats like Carey's custom lobsterboat.* But of all the trawler/tug-type boats I have direct knowledge of or have observed in the anchorages we visit, virtually all of them use all-chain.* All-chain in our GB makes no appreciable difference in the boat's trim or performance.* So all-chain makes all kinds of sense for our boat in our waters.* Plus it's easier to deploy and retrieve with the windlass since there's no change-over from line to chain.

But a combination rode has it's benefits, too.* So there's no one-size fits all.* However in these waters and anchorages I believe that all-chain offers more advantages than a combination rode other than the weight issue, which on many boats is a major issue.

*

Tom,Three Sea Rays eh? Didn't know about that. I thought you were head'in for Sidney. Well how'ed the anchoring go w/o any chain? I still haven't tried my last experiment/trick w my XYZ anchor yet. Plan on tieing a 1' tag line w a small float to the top of the anchor * * ....
a bit like the anchor called the Hydrobubble. Theory is that it won't drag along on it's side.
If I can get it to sit up straight it may set but the little float will take a bit of weight off the anchor and it is very light anyway so it probably won't work. I'll know what to do after that.

Yes Woody,All chain does reduce one's swinging circle but only if the wind dos'nt blow. What an awful mess that would be everyone swing'in a bit different in a crowded anchorage. Some of the anchorages I anchor in are crowded with 1 or 2 boats. But your'e right * * ...most of the time all chain and heavy chain greatly reduces the swing.

nomadwilly wrote:

Yes Woody,
All chain does reduce one's swinging circle but only if the wind dos'nt blow. What an awful mess that would be everyone swing'in a bit different in a crowded anchorage. Some of the anchorages I anchor in are crowded with 1 or 2 boats. But your'e right * * ...most of the time all chain and heavy chain greatly reduces the swing.

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We all take that into account when we anchor don't we?* I like to anchor in a channel where*there's about 8 ft at low tide.* Swing too much to either side because of an unlikely wind and you might be aground.* This ain't Alaska, this is North Carolina where all you need to be a Dick Head is a gold Mastercard and a Sea Ray Sundancer.* I've seen people actually "packing" their anchor, and they obviously don't know what they're doing.

*

"This ain't Alaska, this is North Carolina where all you need to be a Dick Head is a gold Mastercard and a Sea Ray Sundancer.* I've seen people actually "packing" their anchor, and they obviously don't know what they're doing."





HAHAHA , so true. It is definatley the "Sea Ray Nation" in our area. I know a couple cruising folks that love their older Sea Ray motoryachts and know what they are doing, but is does seem like 2 out of every 3 boats in this area is some variation of a 32' Sundancer, and know two speeds, wide open, or "Full Wake Mode" at 14 knots....

*

*

The folks in the USCG, Navy, etc. don't have the luxury of staying at home if the weather becomes extreme. They have to try to manage with what they've got.

WE taxpayers get stuck with the expense of outfitting real good equipment , and paying for endless training.

Boats that function don't get blown ashore .

The Poor decision to attempt to anchor , instead of steaming out 20 miles , and simply waiting the storm out seems to be the missing element here.

With mom & pop in an old TT perhaps this is not a prime option,

but with a boat full of kids seams SEAMANSHIP is no longer taught to our mini Rambos.