Electric Trawler

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So, how much power does it take to move a tank of water around vs make it?

You guys seem to have slipped the surly bonds of rationality and practicality in pursuit of the milliwatt.
 
So, how much power does it take to move a tank of water around vs make it?

You guys seem to have slipped the surly bonds of rationality and practicality in pursuit of the milliwatt.

Ahhhh I've missed you Rick! Glad to see you're back mate!

Sent from my iPhone using Trawler
 
Spectra makes DC water makers that use hydraulics to make high pressure rather than the noisy high pressure pumps most water makers use. These units in their economic mode consume minimal power per gallon and can be run 24/7 producing more than enough water.

For anyone traversing oceans or living on board on the hook, water actually becomes quite important. Making it on board saves weight and space.

When you are continually storing energy from sun and wind there is no good reason not to use it. People always ask why we don't cook with LPG? The answer is that it is an electric boat - why hump LOG when you can just turn on an induction cooktop.
 
So, how much power does it take to move a tank of water around vs make it?

You guys seem to have slipped the surly bonds of rationality and practicality in pursuit of the milliwatt.

Maybe, maybe not. On multihulls, weight is a real performance killer. Most cruising sailboats have watermakers.
 
weight is a real performance killer. Most cruising sailboats have watermakers.

That is because most cruising sailboats are stock boats where water quantity is not a huge concern.

The pre watermaker method of using a water catcher on the sun covers , or slacking the main during a shower has worked for thousands of folks for many decades.
 
weight is a real performance killer. Most cruising sailboats have watermakers.

That is because most cruising sailboats are stock boats where water quantity is not a huge concern.

The pre watermaker method of using a water catcher on the sun covers , or slacking the main during a shower has worked for thousands of folks for many decades.

True, but when I was anchored out from Santispac in the Sea of Cortez, I was glad I had a watermaker. No rain for 4 months.
 
True, but when I was anchored out from Santispac in the Sea of Cortez, I was glad I had a watermaker. No rain for 4 months.
Been there...experienced that.:blush:
 
Walt,

You have been to my "secret" spot. Did you soak your bones in the cruiser's built rock hot tub that is fed by hot springs on the shore's edge?
 
Walt, You have been to my "secret" spot.
When I said "been there...experienced that", I meant the Sea of Cortez and months without rain. We hear a lot about the PNW, Maine, the Delta, etc. but the Gulf of California (Sea of Cortez) is some of the best cruising I've ever done. Talk about great weather, deep blue water, sea life, (Giant Mantas jumping right in front of the boat, Dorados ripping across the water with their dorsals showing, Sail Fish, Marlin, Yellow Fin, Squid, you name it, it's in the Sea of Cortez. (Including Orcas!) Coves to pull in to and dive over the side to cool off. Other cruisers that share a potluck in a desolate anchorage, not to mention the myriad of unusual boats they cruise in.

The Sea of Cortez, truly a magical place. My sister in law (80 yrs old) still maintains a beautiful home in San Carlos and is still active with her kayak, ATV, paddle board and snorkel gear. She's an amazing woman.
 
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Oh yes, all the above. In your travels Walt, did you get to what I call a bay within the bay, Bahia de Conception? It is just south of Muluge.
 
It appears Fisker is near bankruptcy as their electric car dream suffered the fate of fires, recalls and owners demanding their money back. Too bad, they looked great and put in a good effort with lots of government support (money) not proving helpful enough.
 
Another gov't supported electric pipe dream down the tubes!
 
Oh yes, all the above. In your travels Walt, did you get to what I call a bay within the bay, Bahia de Conception? It is just south of Muluge.
No, we normally made the crossing from Guaymas (San Carlos) to Loreto, then we gunkholed all the way to Cabo San Lucas, (Stopping in Puerto Escondido, La Paz, etc. Mulege (Moo-la hay) is in the northern part of the SOC & we never got that far north. We stopped once in Loreto and went to Eden, a hotel close by. My wife & I had a beautiful room with a view of the Sea but when we went out on our veranda, we were treated to a nudist volley ball game. I know that this will sound odd but after 5-10 minutes of watching that game, it wasn't such a big deal after all. :eek: (That;s my story and I'm sticking to it!)
 
My wife & I had a beautiful room with a view of the Sea but when we went out on our veranda, we were treated to a nudist volley ball game. :eek: (That;s my story and I'm sticking to it!)

So that was you up on the balcony waving wildly at us?
 
"with lots of government support (money) not proving helpful enough."

No amount of other peoples money can force a concept that is not ready for prime time.

IF the concept was viable , not a cent of tax-slave cash would need to be dumped on it.

Advertising concepts and literature is far easier to create than a useful product at a realistic price.
 
The key to a pure electric powered boat is modest expectations. Having owned Sunshine (our prototype DSe 12m) since we launched her in 2008, I feel I can speak with experience.

What this poster failed to mention was the 1/2 million dollar price tag...

Does anyone else remember when these same DSe's hit all the boat shows? First one I saw was in Ft. Lauderdale, $550,000 for a 30 some footer with about the same appointments as a 25 foot BayLiner.

I could cruise every day for seven, eight years on forty footer for 1/2 mil.
 
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"......as a 25 foot BayLiner", that is harsh. I haven't been aboard the DSe 12, but the reefer, induction cook top, and other systems are all high end, not Bayliner which I have been on.
 
Sea Moose, where can I find a "brand new" 40' trawler that can cruise for 7 or 8 years for a half million?

I assume those $550,000 electric cats at the boat show where "brand new" not used models. Last year I priced a brand new Grand Banks and very quickly realized I lacked the chips to ante up to that table.

Apples and oranges if your comparing brand new with used.
 
"but the reefer, induction cook top, and other systems are all high end, not Bayliner which I have been on."

Bayliner does not have to Prove its "value" to deep wallet Green braggarts.
 
Bayliner does not have to Prove its "value" to deep wallet Green braggarts.
WOW! That remark really hits home as I used to be one of those guys until I had the opportunity to actually cruise on a Bayliner 45. You do not have to spend a fortune for a 7-8 knot quality trawler that will do almost anything you want it to do. (Except go fast! On the other hand, that 4588 did cruise in the mid teens!)
 

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WOW! That remark really hits home as I used to be one of those guys until I had the opportunity to actually cruise on a Bayliner 45. You do not have to spend a fortune for a 7-8 knot quality trawler that will do almost anything you want it to do. (Except go fast! On the other hand, that 4588 did cruise in the mid teens!)

Yeah, but did it have an induction cook top?

It is amazing that the only people and countries that are overly green (as opposed to sensibly green) are the "wealthy." To whit Fisker, Tesla, Biosphere, Solyandra, E10 and 15 fuel -- yada yada.
 
Yeah, but did it have an induction cook top?

Love the concept of an induction hot plate , as seen on TV.

Has anyone operated one from a NON sine wave inverter.?

EG a chop chop cheapo?
 
Love the concept of an induction hot plate , as seen on TV.

Has anyone operated one from a NON sine wave inverter.?

EG a chop chop cheapo?

Our Xantrex chop chop did not run the portable induction top. I've not tried it yet with our new Magnum PSW.
 
Yeah, but did it have an induction cook top?

It is amazing that the only people and countries that are overly green (as opposed to sensibly green) are the "wealthy." To whit Fisker, Tesla, Biosphere, Solyandra, E10 and 15 fuel -- yada yada.

Where does China and India fit in on this scale? Both produce for their domestic markets more zero emission vehicles than the rest of the world.

Back to the topic at hand, there are two candidates with efficient enough hulls for solar assisted diesel-electric propulsion. On a displacement hull the math is rather simple, to increase speed by a factor of 2 requires an 8 fold increase in propulsion power. Take the WOT top speed of any boat and work backwards to find the power requirements at very slow speeds.

As I mentioned, the Chris White designed Buzzard's Bay power cat is one, and Larry Graf's (of Glacier Bay fame) Aspen C90 power proa is the other. On the Aspen C90, with the addition of just 1520 watts of solar, collecting an average of 5 hours per day at full output, could travel 66 nm for a 24 hour run without using any fuel or stored electrons. With the power of its Volvo-Penta 150 hp single engine can reach 20 kt at WOT, so 10 kt will only require 18.75 hp. To keep balance, weight and trim the same, this boat could be powered by an 80 Kg Steyr turbo diesel that produces 36 hp and would push the boat at 12 kt. The 500 lbs saved in engine weight reduction would be used for lithium batteries and solar panels.

For those that have no desire to cross oceans at the stately speed of just under 3 kt, (faster in reality because you would plan your passages as us sailors, using wind and ocean currents) with 36.4 Kw-hr of storage you could run at these speeds for given distances using the Aspen C90's hull efficient design. One of these distances might suit you for your cruising, if not, fire up the diesel.

16.3 nm @ 12.5 kt
26 nm @ 10 kt
40.6 nm @ 7.8 kt
65.1 nm @ 6.25 kt
104.1 nm @ 5 kt
162.4 nm @ 3.9 kt
258.2 nm @ 3.1 kt
415.5 nm @ 2.5 kt

With the 1520 watts of solar and sunny days, it will take 5 days on the hook to return under stored electrons.

I don't know about the rest of you, but if a brand new boat that can be purchased for $250K had the above capabilities, count me in. Since the Aspen C90 nicely equipped is $200K with the much more expensive 150 hp Volvo, I don't see any problem coming in for $250K.

There is a huge difference when your beam to length ratio is 10 or 12 to 1 vs. the 2.5 or 3 to 1 of a typical trawler displacement hull.
 
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DSe 12m Standard Outfitting

Sea Moose:

I'm not really sure how to respond to your post? You seem to be throwing both the high-end buyers (those who pay 1/2 million for a 39' trawler) and budget buyers (those who pay $75k for a 25' Bayliner) under the bus. Both buyers have one thing in common - they want to get out on the water and have a good time - and each buys a boat suitable to their boating needs and budget. My guess is you're the same way - you found a trawler that met your needs and budget and are perfectly content with her. And you're right, with the right purchase, a knowledgeable boater, can buy a boat and cruise a lifetime for $500k. (I remember in the 60's a minimal "liveaboard" boat in the Dinner Key anchorage in Miami - it was a 20' dory with a blue tarp for a cabin - he was "cruising" for a lot less than $500k, maybe 50 bucks total!)

However, your response appears singularly uninformed - unless I am missing the attempt at humor or sarcasm? The DSe is nominally 12 meters LOA - this may be "thirty something" in your book, but to those who know the metric system, it is close to 39'6" - for all intents and purposes, a forty footer. And she's 17' wide.

Regarding "appointments" - not sure where to begin? At Island Pilot we chose to NOT have an options list - instead we included most everything a knowledgeable boater would like to have on a well-outfitted cruising yacht, and some things the buyer may not know he'd like until he actually has them. Here' a quick list of some of the standard features of the DSe (on the Bayliner website, I did NOT find ANY of these as standard, but feel free to correct me if I am wrong?):

SS anchor with windlass w/chain and rope rode
8' inflatable dinghy w/Torqeedo electric outboard motor & davit
Segway w/davit
15" Garmin touchscreen plotter w/fish finder, XM weather & GPS
18" Garmin HD radar
iCom VHF
Technautic fly-by-wire controls w/autopilot and remote
KVH HD satellite TV with DISH receiver & 3 HDTVs
Bose 3.2.1 home theater system
2 each 3.6 kW charger/pure sine wave inverters
4 each DC/DC converters
ALL LED lighting including Lopolight running lights
ALL AGM batteries (Bayliner would obviously have batteries - no mention of AGM?)
Splendide washer/dryer
Hitachi 14.5 cu.ft. refrigerator/freezer with ice maker (Bayliner has a fridge - I doubt it has ice and is the same size?)
2 each commercial induction cook tops (mentioned previously)
ALL Ultraleather upholstery
2 each Vacuflush toilets (the Bayliner does have a toilet, but specs do not mention electric, so I am guessing manual?)
2 each diesel engines (not gas)
2 each 5 kW generators
NOTE: I have left off ALL of the items directly related to the "hybrid" operation of the DSe.

My guess is either you never actually boarded the DSe at any boat shows, or if you did, found it did not meet YOUR needs and budget, so did not spend much time aboard?

The price of a NEW DSe 12m was $560k in 2008 - just under $600k in today's dollars. This was (and is) a very competitive price for a high-end, slow-speed trawler, not at all over-priced, as others have confirmed on this site. For example, a new, non-optioned, Nordic Tug 39' is listed on YachtWorld.com for $589k.

I am of the understanding that the goal of this forum is to trade ideas and knowledge - not to trade barbs? I love the idea of sharing my experience in the hybrid arena with those who actually wish to learn something about this emerging technology. There are many reasons for us boaters to be more "green." We, more than many, are out in the environment for our main recreation, boating!

The attached video was featured on Discovery Channel's HD Theater.
 
Forgot to add:

5 zones of reverse cycle air conditioning.
 
The boating industry is very conservative. When visionaries like Bill Lapworth and Bill Lee first came on the scene most everyone thought their designs were unsafe and unproven. I bought a Bill Lapworth designed Cal 40 that at the time was almost 20 years old. On a solo cruise (buddy boating with others) from Long Beach to Muluge I out distanced the more conventional boats that upon reaching Cabo I had to wait 4 to 5 days for these boats to catch up. Since my almost 20 year old Cal 40 was new to me, my ego was really pumped up, as I had bought an old boat that was that much faster than new offerings. My ego was deflated in the Sea of Cortez when I did some day sailing with a family on their Santa Cruz 50, a Bill Lee design. It was faster on all points of sail.

This conservative nature in boat design dictated by the buyers is why in the multihull arena we in the States are so far behind SA, France, and Australia. This conservative nature spills over to not only hull design but means of propulsion. I have no doubt that when I'm able to cruise full time again, diesel will be $8~$10 per gallon. I have come across vessel usage statistics that prove the newer designs are used more per year than the conventional designs.

For the boater that is still a working stiff, whereas his time is limited, a design like the Buzzard's Bay is getting more usage for many reasons. First, sea state is no longer a limiting factor (within reason). On a day with 3' chop that creates a lot of pounding and motion where conventional designs would stay in port, a knife edged displacement cat will cruise at high speed in comfort, so added days of usage. Expanded weekend cruising grounds are another reason for more user usage. If you take Friday off to get to your destination anchorage and return on Sunday, your range at 8~10 kt would be 80 to 100 nm at best with a conventional design but could easily triple that with a boat like the Buzzard's Bay.

What Reuben has designed is so far ahead of its time in the mind's of the conservative boating public, it will fuel the nay sayers. But if you want to cruise far and wide in your retirement, don't want the hassles of a sailboat, and don't want to budget $50K per year in fuel, his design and others that are doing the same with advanced propulsion will be your ticket for cruising independence.

When will we learn that the sun provides all the energy we need to live a modern life, and at a slow, relaxed pace, will push our marine homes to all the destinations we dream of?
 
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