Any Synthetic Oil Users Here?

Here's the link to that oil filter study. It's been moved: Oil Filters Revealed - MiniMopar Resources

I use synthetic, but only in my truck. Not worth it for my older Lehman.

Anyone thinking about adding a bypass filter system? Since my last posting I did some research and the prices are not bad. The actual filters are reasonable and they filter down to 2 or 3 microns. It's the hook up they charge for on the kits. I think you buy a filter mount and the filter, then plumb it to the oil pressure sending unit, or oil cooler, through the filter and find a passage way back to the oil galley/pan. Mounting the filter shouldn't be that much of an issue either.

I've read where that 2 micron filter will clean up black oil in time and keep the oil mostly clear or clean looking.

It's a thought that might be worth while.

Art, Eric and Capthead, can I bring you back to the issue of lower friction and the possibility of it actually lowering the coolant temp, as Capthead claims he has had happen, and I also have seen this. Most have sort of sloughed the idea off as 'dreaming', because of a faith in the thermostat to control the temp, but I would just like you to ponder this explanation, as I really do want to hear views on it as to whether it could be correct...or why it is not...
I quote from an earlier post you might not have picked up on..

Coming back tho to the point you made some have trouble accepting...that of the temp dropping from the reduced friction. That was also something noticed when using Bi-Tron. It did drop the av running temp by a small but measurable amount, so I suspect the thermostat, being a fairly crude temp control, does not have the last or total say in engine temp.
The thermostat opens at a predetermined minimum temp, (not a maximum), then remains open until the temp drops below the desired operating temp. However, there would be a degree of hysteresis
Hysteresis - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia in the response curves if graphed, so probably most engines have the coolant temp go on to rise a few degrees above that minimum until it reaches an equilibrium with the ability of the cooling system to arrest further rise, and similarly would have to drop further than normal op temp by a small amount before closing. So an oil that actually cuts friction more, could well see the temp not rise as much, but still not lower it enough to cause the thermostat to close.

I understand that thinking and most certainly agree with it. I replaced my heat exchangers with new ones I ordered from Orca Marine and there are two sizes of heat exchangers for Ford Lehmans. One is for NA the other turbo. I had one of each on the boat and I replaced them with the larger turbo size coolers. There wasn't an issue with my old ones, I just wanted to replace them with equal size new coolers.

I had been to Catalina several times with the new coolers, belts, hoses, thermostat and coolant, my temps were a constant 180 and never varied.

After changing to synthetic on the port engine only, my first trip was where I noticed the 5 degree drop.

This, to me, must prove two things. Thermostats are valves that open at a specified temperature to allow coolant to pass, not a guaranty to hold a certain temp and the synthetic's reduction of friction directly contributed to a lower internal engine temperature.

To this day, my temperature gauges always read 175 when warmed and running above 1500 rpm. My marina is 3 miles from the breakwater and I'm in a 5 mph no wake zone for 2.6 of those miles. It won't get to 175 during that trip.

Thanks Spy and neeld,

I can't remember if I read it (or where) or if it was a product of conversation but I do remember that the black was supposed to be carbon and that it was very hard and abrasive.

Something interesting about this is that the "black" is present in gasoline and diesel engines both .... just much more of it in diesels. Thats why I've always heard it's much more important to change oil often w diesels.

The black comes from the fuel and the fuel is a bit different.

If I remember correctly and the carbon is a big part of it and if it's very abrasive oil changing could be very important.
Soot probably creates sludge and sludge over time is very damaging also but I believe sludge is supposed to be kept in suspension w good modern detergents and is largely swept out of the engine w oil changes. More importance of oil changes. And as FF always says change it when hot so a maximum amount of chemicals, sludge/soot, varnish, just plain dirt and whatever else gets into the oil as the engine runs is in the oil and gets taken out w the change.

I'd say most of this "stuff" comes from the fuel so using synthetic should not change the amount of contaminants very much .... only slightly from the varnish that comes from dino oil.

Tom.B I really don't think it's important to get all the oil out during a change. Perhaps in an hours running time you've pumped back into the new oil about the same amount of contaminants that were left in the "stray" oil left during the change. It's just fly stuff and you know what flies do.

Peter and Capthead,
The thermostat probably won't get all the way open at cruise speed so small amounts of friction change should affect temps but also thermostat opening. Only if the thermostat was all the way open before and after would a temp change be traceable to lower friction. The lower friction concept is probably well documented in lubrication analysis so if you really want to find out if synthetic oil has lower friction a bit of internet searching should tell. I'm quite sure there is lower friction but it's so little less that it dosn't add into the use/don't use equation. It's bound to be different because it's different stuff but how different should determine whether we should consider it in a use/don't use debate. If the friction was much different I'd guess just about everybody would want to run synthetic.

psneeld said:

So far right on the money from my experience.

While exccesive soot is not normal there's gonna be some and if the oil is doing it's job and you do yours of proper monitoring/interval maintenance....it's what the oil copanies and engine deigners expect.

Here's one of the more simple explanations of soot I've read...

http://www.gofurtherwithfs.com/Whitepapers/Soot in Diesel Engines.pdf

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EXCELLENT SOOT EXPLANATION LINK! - Thanks... Art

Peter B said:

Art, Most have sort of sloughed the idea off as 'dreaming', because of a faith in the thermostat to control the temp,.........
so I suspect the thermostat, being a fairly crude temp control, does not have the last or total say in engine temp.

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I certainly haven't "sloughed" the idea off. Can't wait to give it a try but I know my oil change guy (An Englishman and a great guy) is going to fight me tooth and nail.

Eric, I don't understand why everybody doesn't use synthetic oils and gear lube.

A very good oil analysis read is found by googling Cat SOS Services. Unlike the sellers of oil products, Cat is telling you what you need to know to keep your engine healthy.

Black oil iris not uncommon for all diesels, especially those working at 70 percent load or higher such as gensets, tugs, mine trucks and pumps. The amount of fuel burned between oil changes will play a big role in oil blackness since the fuel is where the the carbon comes from. Using the book oil filters will provide optimum carbon size removal. Changing the oil by book hours, whether syn or Dino is a must, contrary to what the purveyors of oil sellers tell you as to doubling oil life.

Oil analysis is fine but unless for a high hour commercial application, not necessarily the most important thing to do for your engine's health. Like using syn though,oil analysis for low hour per year motors will not hurt.

Like many engines on a tilt and as mentioned by previous posters, getting all the black oil out is not easy. After draining, I add couple of quarts of new oil and then remove it too. My oil stays clearer longer but still eventually gets black before I change it out.

Capthead said:

Eric, I don't understand why everybody doesn't use synthetic oils and gear lube.

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Have you read the entire thread? Lots of reasons have been posted.

rwidman said:

Have you read the entire thread? Lots of reasons have been posted.

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I started the thread and yes I read the entire thing. That doesn't change the fact I'm sold on using a quality 100% synthetic oil like Mobil, Amway or the Purple.

I also know when it says fully synthetic it can contain 25% used recycle oil too.

That fact is why I don't use Pennzoil or other brands not that I'm saying they would add recycled oil, just they could.

Did you read my personal findings? I have used Mobil since 1977, yes that decade. I have never had leaking seals or excessive oil consumption. In 1995 I switched my boat engines to Delvac 1. My results were very noticable and I liked the difference to stick with Delvac 1.

manyboats said:

Peter and Capthead,
The thermostat probably won't get all the way open at cruise speed so small amounts of friction change should affect temps but also thermostat opening. Only if the thermostat was all the way open before and after would a temp change be traceable to lower friction. The lower friction concept is probably well documented in lubrication analysis so if you really want to find out if synthetic oil has lower friction a bit of internet searching should tell. I'm quite sure there is lower friction but it's so little less that it dosn't add into the use/don't use equation. It's bound to be different because it's different stuff but how different should determine whether we should consider it in a use/don't use debate. If the friction was much different I'd guess just about everybody would want to run synthetic.

Click to expand...

I feel us consumers (innocently), and the engineers/manufacturers/ad-purveyors of oil products and promotions (purposefully), are to a large extent comparing apples and oranges... regarding the terms "friction" and "engine temps" while lubricating with either dino or syn oils.

In that:

If there were actually notable "friction" that occurred with dino oil (compared to syn) then it would stand to reason that there would be considerably shorter engine life as well as noticeably less mpg (in boats - more gph) than when using syn oil. I’ve not seen qualified blind test studies/reports that show either instance... just advertising loudly touting and some people agreeing that engine temps are lowered when using syn; and, that could be due to other reasons than reduced friction – such as syn oil’s reduced temp holding qualifications. Additionally, and although some do not agree, engine thermostats are engineer/designed to be very close in their tolerance/reaction levels to coolant temps from which they blindly respond. In other words... if something drops an engine’s heat production then the thermostat reduces coolant flow till the desired coolant temp is reached and maintained. Now, the heat sensors (temp gauge activators) in an engine may be picking up a bit different temp reading due to their placement in respect to the oil channels, or oil pump, or oil filter, or oil sump wherein syn oil’s reduced heat retention qualities may play a factor... but... the thermostat is going to keep the coolant and overall engine temperature right where the engineers planned – as long as the thermostat is in good condition and there is no engine malfunction that catapults engine heat past the capabilities of a wide open thermostat to maintain operational temps.

Where are the empirical facts (blind test studies and reports) that prove high quality syn oil makes engines last longer, run better, use less fuel, stay cooler than high quality dino oil... please advise!

No close tolerance, high rpm bearing, flat tappet, cam lobe will last but seconds/minutes in use if real heat producing “friction” (i.e. too close virtual or actual) touching between the metals truly occurs. In other words... there MUST ALWAYS be high lubricity film barriers between close tolerance, high rpm, operational and load bearing metal parts – or in seconds/minutes the engine will rocket upwards in temperature, internal metal parts will melt/sheet/crack/crumple/twist and complete motor failure will nearly immediately occur.

This brings me to these points:

1. Dino oils have been around and well utilized for all the history of hydrocarbon fueled engines. And, dino oil lubrication/cleaning factors have been much improved over the decades/century.
2. Syn oils arrived to satisfy war time needs (ain’t war great – yuck!) and syn oil proved to be pretty expensive but darn good at lubricating too... similar to refined, high quality dino oil, but even better in some instances of it long term “clinging” onto some metal parts.
3. Being “new kid on the block”, offering some neat lubrication features, and enabling new industry, syn oil became highly touted regarding superior qualities above dino oil; BIG bucks went into sny oil developments/improvements.
4. As the public loves a new product... syn oil promoters began to have an advertising field day and syn oil sales surged... at BOD meetings, BIG Ad Bucks$$$ became available from syn oil manufacturers.
5. For years, Madison Ave jumped into “over-drive” selling the new “lube-elixir” syn oil in every package and name and via every exciting TV/Mag/Radio/Billboard ads they could dream up.
6. After couple decades the syn oil ad hysteria died down and the desired result had been accomplished - - > Syn and dino oils are both holders of large market shares, with people who attest to the virtues of either... that is called the best and least costly advertising – “Word-of-Mouth”! Exactly what is going on in this thread! And, that ain’t all bad by any means as discussion twixt competing product users who have years of experience can really bring some enlightenment to all who participate... cause after all, we’re just trying to figure how to keep our power plants in best conditions for longest time and at lowest costs!

Sooo... With that said: I seems clear to me that both dino and syn oils have great properties for lubricating engine, transmission, gears and other mechanical devices. And, there is no perfect lubrication factor (or set of factors) that makes either dino or syn stand way above one another (considering good quality products of each catagory). The main use-methodology that I believe surrounds both lubricants and helps to best insure longest possible mechanical-device life is - - > CHANGE OIL REGULARLY and REPLACE FILTERS!

Happy Boating Daze - Art

Capthead said:

I started the thread and yes I read the entire thing. That doesn't change the fact I'm sold on using a quality 100% synthetic oil like Mobil, Amway or the Purple..............

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That's just fine, but everybody is not sold on synthetic lubricants and many reasons have been posted.

rwidman said:

That's just fine, but everybody is not sold on synthetic lubricants and many reasons have been posted.

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I know Ron. I'm not a salesman for synthetic, I just have had great success with it and wanted to find other boaters to see if their experiences were similar.

I am on the grand banks forum and have been since 93 or 94 and I changed over in 95 telling everyone I was going to. Everybody told me not to.

After finding it had benefits I could see I posted them then. Today there are probably ten or more that use it and they all spout the changes in their engines.

I'm new here, people don't know who I am and I was only checking to see if anyone here had experience with it. I see only a few use synthetic and they are happy with it.

In the mean time, the discussion continues.

Cheers!!

Art, I have searched high and low for that article I read in Popular Science about Mobil 1 they wrote in 1976. It would explain a lot of things that searches today don't discuss.

One of the tests they did was to place a quart of conventional oil in a pan and place it in an oven and cook it one hour at 350 degrees. The same was done with synthetic.

Conventional oil turned to jello and was a cake.

Then the did the same with new oil and froze it 30 below zero. Same result

Synthetic oil was not effected with either test.

This is why most car makers that have turbos insist on synthetic oil.

The heat handling is a big factor. Jet engines have to have synthetic. Imagine what would happen to a jet engine if you placed conventional oil in it.

I know my 1700 rpm ford is so beneath all of those but as long as I can afford to buy Delvac 1 I'll use it.

I see your point and I'm unable to add to anything regarding less friction. I just wish I could find that article. It covered NASCAR and Formula 1 and CART too. It had oil analysis comparisons, etc. It was a complete study.

Popular Science - Google Books

This is one report

Cap,
Baking oil in a pan at 350 degrees is an insult to anyone that knows oil even in a racing motorcycle will never reach 350. So it proves the oil is better when baked in a pan at 350 degrees but less than 1% of people running engines will bring the oil to that temp. It wouldn't occur to most people and for that reason the tests like that exist. Like "premium" gasoline. You only need it if your engine pings but probably more people use it when they don't need it than those that do just because of the way they present the product.

Turbos are getting much more popular in cars and boats so if ther'e is a real benefit to synthetic oil it should become more popular along w turbo's. It's an area that I know little about but it looks like turbo's get hot enough for synthetic oil to be of some advantage. How hot does oil get in a turbocharger? Why don't turbo's have their own lube oil. The racing motorcycle syn oil I use may be excellent for that.

Running synthetic oil in a Ford ALehman is a little like running "premium" gas in a 37 Plymouth. Just don't need it.

I have put syn oil to good use in a marine gear weheras the case was made out of aluminum and when it had run for several hours it got hot enough that the gear box was unbearably noisy. The synthetic oil wasn't enough so I had to install an oil cooler and use other additives to control the racket .... But in th e end I won.

Capthead said:

Art, I have searched high and low for that article I read in Popular Science about Mobil 1 they wrote in 1976. It would explain a lot of things that searches today don't discuss.

One of the tests they did was to place a quart of conventional oil in a pan and place it in an oven and cook it one hour at 350 degrees. The same was done with synthetic.

Conventional oil turned to jello and was a cake.

Then the did the same with new oil and froze it 30 below zero. Same result

Synthetic oil was not effected with either test.

This is why most car makers that have turbos insist on synthetic oil.

The heat handling is a big factor. Jet engines have to have synthetic. Imagine what would happen to a jet engine if you placed conventional oil in it.

I know my 1700 rpm ford is so beneath all of those but as long as I can afford to buy Delvac 1 I'll use it.

I see your point and I'm unable to add to anything regarding less friction. I just wish I could find that article. It covered NASCAR and Formula 1 and CART too. It had oil analysis comparisons, etc. It was a complete study.

Click to expand...

I use canola oil when cooking with a pan. I don't bother with the synthetic stuff with my food.

Now that's funny right there!

Art said:

CHANGE OIL REGULARLY and REPLACE FILTERS!

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For me, the discussion ends there. While I'm sure the debate will continue, as far as I'm concerned, and for the engines we run (FL120s), Art's statement is the only one that bears remembering and adhering to.

Bob Smith told me a number of years ago that FL120s in service with the Washington State Ferry System ran in excess of 25,000 hours before needing a core overhaul. And that the same engine, operated, serviced, and maintained properly in recreational boat service is a 12,000 to 14,000 hour engine. In both cases, the engine earned this reputation on conventional oil if for no other reason than viable synthetics were not available back then.

I agree with Eric that while synthetics may have some advantages over conventional oils these advantages are in reality probably minimal to zip when it comes to the kinds of engines most of us run in our boats and the way we run them. Which means that using synthetics, while it may be technically advantageous in some tiny way, really makes no difference in reality other than to one's wallet.

A modern, high-reving, constantly-load-changing, close-tolerance engine in a vehicle is a different situation altogether. For the two new vehicles we own for which synthetic oil is specifically called for in the operators manual, we run the called-for synthetic and I would not put convernional oil in them for love nore money (although the Subaru manual states that conventional oils can be used "in an emergency and only for short periods" after which it must be replaced with the specified synthetic oil).

So while this thread seems to be a lively armchair discussion I think the only thing that's been said in it that's really worth heeding is Art's statement that I started this post with. That's my take on it all, anyway.

My take on the Dino vs synth is... It can be discussed for ever cause there are way too many variables in engine design , year , model, load , rpm , usage, condition etc from all the different posters who offer a contribution to this issue, You cant compare a newer common rail electronic fuel management Diesel with 2 oil pumps, high pressure piston jets, large oil coolers, multi oil by pas systems and a centrifuge to a older low tech good ole trust worthy ford 120 found in so many trawlers, Perkins 6.354s also, If you own a new design engine then synth has value but in my opinion if ya got a old school ford or Perkins its far better to change out Dino more often like every 100 hrs max with a filter change every 50hrs, The cost is not that more than purchasing synth and trying to go for 200hrs between services may not pan out, I think you all should save your bucks on synth oil and apply the savings to clean fuel cause that's what causes all the carbon problems to begin with, but that's just my opinion

Craig Schreck said:

My take on the Dino vs synth is... It can be discussed for ever cause there are way too many variables in engine design , year , model, load , rpm , usage, condition etc from all the different posters who offer a contribution to this issue, You cant compare a newer common rail electronic fuel management Diesel with 2 oil pumps, high pressure piston jets, large oil coolers, multi oil by pas systems and a centrifuge to a older low tech good ole trust worthy ford 120 found in so many trawlers, Perkins 6.354s also, If you own a new design engine then synth has value but in my opinion if ya got a old school ford or Perkins its far better to change out Dino more often like every 100 hrs max with a filter change every 50hrs, The cost is not that more than purchasing synth and trying to go for 200hrs between services my not pan out, I think you all should save your bucks on synth oil and apply the savings to clean fuel cause that's what causes all the carbon problems to begin with, but that's just my opinion

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Why wait till 50 hours on the filter...how about 25 and 50 on the oil change?

Craig why would you change the filter more often than the oil?

I usually do the opposite. I change the oil 3 times and the filter once. The boat engine operates in such a clean environment I reason that the filter would take a long time to fill up w contaminants so I leave it alone over half of the time.

What's your reason for changing the filter more often?

Oil filters are cheep but if you need 25hr change outs you may consider a leak down test or save the money for rings, liners and injector tips. The one bad thing about old design Diesels is you never know when a oil filter goes into bypass, Carbon has very much a snow ball effect, It starts off small but very quickly gets large, often the older Diesels found in small trawlers do not have to work very hard to move the boat from a to b so they seem to last forever, just not very efficiently.

manyboats said:

Craig why would you change the filter more often than the oil?

I usually do the opposite. I change the oil 3 times and the filter once. The boat engine operates in such a clean environment I reason that the filter would take a long time to fill up w contaminants so I leave it alone over half of the time.

What's your reason for changing the filter more often?

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On older Diesels that black out the oil fast, the carbon and soot can put the oil filter into by pass, especially when the engine oil is cold, the black oil is abrasive, oil filters are cheep insurance with the exception of Fram oil filters, they tend to blow the cardboard end caps and allow large amounts of trash thru the engine causing rod bearing failure.

that's bs! you can use syn in old engines. I have a vintage ford tractor which I switched to sny in 2003 when I bought her and since then I even drove it for a bit with no oil in the crankcase by accident. I had just changed the oil and my neighbor came over to ask a question 2006. I then went to work in the pasture until I noticed a red light on the dash. I thought, crap, I didn't put enough oil in so drove back to the farm a half mile away then added oil to have it run out on the ground. I had forgotten to tighten the drain plug and it had fallen out. I figured it was time for a rebuild but I decided to fill the crank case and see if she would run. She ran fine, and still runs fine, no smoke, same power. After this I now believe what I read about syn oil bonding to the metal so that cold starts do not cause the wear that they do with conventional oils.
I was a mobil 1 junky for years but now use amsoil. amsoil makes a marine diesel oil that should work great in your lehman AMSOIL SAE 15W-40 Heavy-Duty Diesel and Marine Motor Oil
I use this in my 1975 ford 2000 tractor

manyboats said:

Craig why would you change the filter more often than the oil?

I usually do the opposite. I change the oil 3 times and the filter once. The boat engine operates in such a clean environment I reason that the filter would take a long time to fill up w contaminants so I leave it alone over half of the time.

What's your reason for changing the filter more often?

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.
first of all syn oil doesn't form sludge like conventional oils do so there is no need to change the filter as often. syn also holds more sludge and dirt in suspension than conventional oils do giving your engine better protection. When I was servicing boats I found that most people didn't change the oil as often as they should making syn the logical choice.
Why not change the filter when you change the oil filters are cheap? I recommend extended oil change intervals with syn with filter change.
I recommend the manufacturers light duty oil change intervals with syn instead of the severe duty change interval. This way the cost of syn is hardly more than the cost of more frequent conventional oil changes. And this goes for boats cars tractors etc.

A diesel engine is a fairly difficult lubrication application, mainly because of the fuel and soot loading. Good oils will use TAN boosters to alleviate the acidity of the partially burnt acidic fuel, dispersants and detergents for soot control, and antioxidants for high temperature and longevity. The base oil is nearly irrelevant for the application. Use a great quality petroleum base oil with a high VI and change your oil and filter often.

PS: I like synthetics, just not for this application.

PPS: The synthetic oil used in aero-derivative gas turbines is typically an organic ester due to high contact temperatures. Completely different animal. Frame gas turbines and steam turbines often run regular hydro cracked petroleum base oil.

bfloyd4445 said:

that's bs! you can use syn in old engines. I have a vintage ford tractor which I switched to sny in 2003 when I bought her and since then I even drove it for a bit with no oil in the crankcase by accident. I had just changed the oil and my neighbor came over to ask a question 2006. I then went to work in the pasture until I noticed a red light on the dash. I thought, crap, I didn't put enough oil in so drove back to the farm a half mile away then added oil to have it run out on the ground. I had forgotten to tighten the drain plug and it had fallen out. I figured it was time for a rebuild but I decided to fill the crank case and see if she would run. She ran fine, and still runs fine, no smoke, same power. After this I now believe what I read about syn oil bonding to the metal so that cold starts do not cause the wear that they do with conventional oils.
I was a mobil 1 junky for years but now use amsoil. amsoil makes a marine diesel oil that should work great in your lehman AMSOIL SAE 15W-40 Heavy-Duty Diesel and Marine Motor Oil
I use this in my 1975 ford 2000 tractor

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I rebuilt the diesels in my 1971 ford 2000 diesel tractor some 15 years ago and the diesel in my ford 3000 4x4 diesel tractor shortly after, they both had over 10k on the clocks and ran fine, they only used dino oil and were way out of spec on the rod bearings to the point the crank pins were turning blue but they ran fine, But I have never ran them out of oil , could it be that ford just makes good diesel tractor engines ? I never said you could not or should not run synth oil in your old diesel, but synth oil will not help blow by in fact a lighter weight synth oil may make it worse over a heavier weight dino oil.

Capthead said:

Popular Science - Google Books

This is one report

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Capthead - I read entire atricle. Thank you for the link!

No doubt that syn oil has many great features. I am thinking carefully about changing one of my classic or newer engines to syn oil... and then watch its performance closely. I need to read more info and it needs to be more recent reports that the 1970's one in Popular Science. My eyes and ears are wide open. Lubricant cost is too small a % of overall costs to be an item when it comes to extending engine life.

I'm on a serious search now to find out more about syn oil... before I actually try it out. Currently there is a 75% + chance that I will eventually try syn oil. Before this thread the chance was 10% -... Quite a turn in position!