Any Synthetic Oil Users Here?

sunchaser said:

BTW Marin, are not your engines specified for synthetic - gas and not diesel? .

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Correct, Tom. One is the 4-cyl boxer engine in our 2011 Subaru Forester (0-20 wt) and the other is the 5.0 liter V-8 in our 2013 Ford pickup.

I have had one what I would call knowledgeable mechanic reccomend synthetic oil with what I deemed cogent reasoning. He reccomended it for my 1982 MB 300 td for winter use. The Mercedes was a real PIA in the winter. anything close to zero without plugging it in was a crap shoot if it would start. Amongst other cold weather tips The MB mechanic suggested run Mobil 1, it doesn't thicken with cold as do dine oils. But he suggested to only use it during the coldest months as it advantages did not justify the cost in the warmer months. It cost twice as much. So if you change the dino twice as often the out of pocket expense is the same with the advantage that the oil is far cleaner (read soot free). I ran synthetic in my snowmobile back in the early years. It didn't smoke like dino oil to the delight of the folks following behind me, but all the literature failed to mention that it didn't protect against corrosion like the dino either. I might have been OK had I fogged the engine in the spring with dino 2 stroke, but who knew. The second season was plagued by poor mileage and performance. I pulled the head to investigate why the compression was down, and the cylinder walls made the cause obvious. I do run a synthetic blend these days in the sled because the RAVE valves don't get nearly as dirty requiring cleaning but I fog with pure dino. I run Shell Rotella in the Perkins boat engines. I change it often. They are happy with that. I am Happy with that. I love Happy.

Thanks for the discussion everyone. Personally, I never intended this to become argumentative, the post was "are there any synthetic users?' I wanted to compare notes with the ones who do use synthetic. I have no connection with Mobil except to buy their product.

When you look at the advantages of synthetic over dino you see;
Advantages
The technical advantages of synthetic motor oils include:[citation needed]
Measurably better low- and high-temperature viscosity performance at service temperature extremes
Better chemical & shear stability
Decreased evaporative loss
Resistance to oxidation, thermal breakdown, and oil sludge problems
Extended drain intervals with the environmental benefit of less oil waste.
Improved fuel economy in certain engine configurations.
Better lubrication during extreme cold weather starts
Longer engine life
Superior protection against "ash" and other deposit formation in engine hot spots (in particular in turbochargers and superchargers) for less oil burnoff and reduced chances of damaging oil passageway clogging.
Increased horsepower and torque due to less initial drag on engine
Does not contain detergents

I changed because of excessive oil use with dino oil. I have always been a "think outside the box" person. I'm not here to change anyone's mind, I just wrote about my experience and it's from more of a "wow! this stuff really works" point of view than trying to make you do this too.

I hope this clears up my intent. I'll continue to use Delvac 1 and I will continue to report honestly any and all changes with my engines as they happen.

Cheers to all and thanks for listening.

Capthead said:

Thanks for the discussion everyone. Personally, I never intended this to become argumentative, the post was "are there any synthetic users?' I wanted to compare notes with the ones who do use synthetic. I have no connection with Mobil except to buy their product.

When you look at the advantages of synthetic over dino you see;
Advantages
The technical advantages of synthetic motor oils include:[citation needed]
Measurably better low- and high-temperature viscosity performance at service temperature extremes
Better chemical & shear stability
Decreased evaporative loss
Resistance to oxidation, thermal breakdown, and oil sludge problems
Extended drain intervals with the environmental benefit of less oil waste.
Improved fuel economy in certain engine configurations.
Better lubrication during extreme cold weather starts
Longer engine life
Superior protection against "ash" and other deposit formation in engine hot spots (in particular in turbochargers and superchargers) for less oil burnoff and reduced chances of damaging oil passageway clogging.
Increased horsepower and torque due to less initial drag on engine
Does not contain detergents

I changed because of excessive oil use with dino oil. I have always been a "think outside the box" person. I'm not here to change anyone's mind, I just wrote about my experience and it's from more of a "wow! this stuff really works" point of view than trying to make you do this too.

I hope this clears up my intent. I'll continue to use Delvac 1 and I will continue to report honestly any and all changes with my engines as they happen.

Cheers to all and thanks for listening.

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Not sure you can blame excessive oil use on the fact that it was dino oil....but in your case it seems like you made a move that made you content and as long as your engine lasts a long time...good for you....especially because you didn't listen to someone who might have told you to "rebuild" right away.

While I was searching for a lab to send an oil analysis to, I found this little tidbit on the FAQ page of Blackstone Labs (some pretty funny stuff in there). It's interesting considering they analyze oil all day long:


What's the best oil to use?

Come on, you're holding out on me. I should use synthetic, right?

Tom.B said:

While I was searching for a lab to send an oil analysis to, I found this little tidbit on the FAQ page of Blackstone Labs (some pretty funny stuff in there). It's interesting considering they analyze oil all day long:


What's the best oil to use?

Ah, the million dollar question. We are an independent lab, so we don't make recommendations. It has been our experience that oil is oil, and either petroleum or synthetic-based oil will work well for just about any engine.
​

Come on, you're holding out on me. I should use synthetic, right?

Buddy, you should use whatever you want. Synthetic oil won't guarantee a longer engine life any more than my eating organic food will guarantee I'll live until I'm 90. We here at Blackstone generally use regular petroleum-based oil because honestly, it works just as well for us.
​

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"badda bing, badda boom"

Capthead said:

Thanks for the discussion everyone. Personally, I never intended this to become argumentative,

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Oh really?

sunchaser said:

Engines running cooler on syns you say, I always thought on a well tended engine it was the thermostats that controlled temps, silly me.

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Well tended being the operative words, this is true, however, an engine whos thermostat is wide open (max cooling) can still run hot due to other factors. Blockage in the heat exchanger, etc.
A fully opened thermostat can cool the engine only so far and then all the other components must be in good working order. ( RW Impeller, heat exchanger(s), coolant, etc.) In theory, an oil that has more lubricity, can in fact, lower the operating temp of the engine.

New cars are now going 10,000 miles between oil changes. (I don't buy in to this but many of their operating manuals say it's OK.) Many car manufacturers also recommend synthetic oil.

SeaHorse II said:

.................New cars are now going 10,000 miles between oil changes. (I don't buy in to this but many of their operating manuals say it's OK.) Many car manufacturers also recommend synthetic oil.

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That's fine and when Volvo comes out with a recommendation for extended oil change intervals with synthetic oil, I'll consider changing.

The new cars use synthetic oil (and often very thin oil) to meet the government regulations for fuel economy.

sunchaser said:

Oh really?

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When did I argue?

It's interesting to me that Daddo's talk'in about "Amzoil SAE30".
Since synthetic oil has the properties of multi-vis oil w/o any viscosity improvers added I would think an SAE 30 non-MV oil would be nonexistent.

Tom you criticize doing things that make us feel good w/o gaining any real good as undesirable but that's the real reason we boat is to feel good. Feeling good about what we feed our engines is probably more cost effective than boating itself. And remember that radial tires were on the market a long time before general acceptance was achieved.

Capthead I highly suspect that the lower temperatures you measured were due to different viscosities of the dino oil and the synthetic under the dynamic conditions you measured. Can't remember what temp you measured ... I'll go look.
Argument? These kind of threads have the appearance of an argument but we frequently really like to kick this kind of thing around and most of us learn something or a great deal. I like to think of them as a "yea but what about this" talk/discussion but arguments can evolve.

rwidman said:

That's fine and when Volvo comes out with a recommendation for extended oil change intervals with synthetic oil, I'll consider changing.

The new cars use synthetic oil (and often very thin oil) to meet the government regulations for fuel economy.

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So your saying synthetic will give you better fuel economy. gotcha!!

Late to the party but have been hunting, four wheeling and camping for almost 30 years with 4 gentleman whom truly are master mechanics(2 automotive, 1 diesel, and 1 custom vehicle fabricator). I've sat around the campfire and listened to the debates back and forth over the issue of vehicle lubrication more times than I can count. The takeaway from all this is best summed up in Tom's post #35.

The biggest PITA they related where customers coming in waxing eloquent over the virtues of Slick 50 or any one of the other snake oil remedies. Tough to convince a customer that just paid upwards of $20 a quart that they'd be better off without it. Lack of maintenance kills engines not off the shelf dino oil.

Capthead said:

When did I argue?

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Ya know... I've read through this entire thread and really appreciate all the input. Also, I do not feel there were any real argumentative posts here... but rather strong, detailed discussions that laid layers of lubrication info open for all of us to read.

TF sometimes appears to get arguments started. I call them disagreements in context of thought patterns. One thing good about net confabs is no chance of punching, kicking, or even slapping! i.e. Plenty of communications w/ no physical bruises... just mildly pushy icons if desired - LOL

Such as:

My experience with Mobil 1 in gasoline engines is an immediate power difference, a quieter engine, and cooler. On my carbureted engines the idle was higher. To me, that points to less friction. As to fuel savings, I was disappointed it was a very small amount better but then, I don't drive for fuel economy.

I never had a seal leak on any of my cars, ever.

When I bought the Heads Up it came with a Johnson 4 HP outboard and that was the hardest starting engine ever cold. Once you warmed it up, it would restart with one or two pulls. I used a motorcycle racing 2 stroke oil in my other outboards as a mixing oil with the gas so I tried it in that Johnson.

Before I made the change, I pulled the spark plug and noted the condition. It was black and had a lot of carbon build up but I placed it back in the engine without cleaning it. I have a 3 gallon gas can I use in my dinghy and after the second fill the engine was starting cold with one to two pulls and warm on the first pull. After finishing my third tank I pulled the spark plug to inspect it and I was amazed to see it had cleaned it's self and it was a light grey color.

I think it was a 66 or 67 engine and was with the boat all it's life. I never found any paperwork on the engine but I kept it until 1999 when I bought a new Johnson 8 HP.

I don't remember the brand of that 2 stroke oil but I bought it at a Yamaha motorcycle shop as marine stores didn't sell synthetic 2 stroke oil.

Now I wish I had made photographic documentation of that with a video showing the starting.

Capn Craig said:

... but all the literature failed to mention that it didn't protect against corrosion like the dino either. I might have been OK had I fogged the engine in the spring with dino 2 stroke, but who knew. The second season was plagued by poor mileage and performance. I pulled the head to investigate why the compression was down, and the cylinder walls made the cause obvious.

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Capn Craig - That is one of the most important differences I've learned regarding syn - vs - dino oils. TY for posting that! I'm still an advocate of high quality dino oils! - Art

CPseudonym said:

Late to the party but have been hunting, four wheeling and camping for almost 30 years with 4 gentleman whom truly are master mechanics(2 automotive, 1 diesel, and 1 custom vehicle fabricator). I've sat around the campfire and listened to the debates back and forth over the issue of vehicle lubrication more times than I can count. The takeaway from all this is best summed up in Tom's post #35.

The biggest PITA they related where customers coming in waxing eloquent over the virtues of Slick 50 or any one of the other snake oil remedies. Tough to convince a customer that just paid upwards of $20 a quart that they'd be better off without it. Lack of maintenance kills engines not off the shelf dino oil.

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THANKS CP!

Lack of maintenance kills engines not off the shelf dino oil. - BINGO!!!

rwidman said:

The new cars use synthetic oil (and often very thin oil) to meet the government regulations for fuel economy.

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I thought thinner oil was required because of the closer tolerances in modern engines due to advanced manufacturing techniques. Could still be fuel economy related I guess. Or more HP. Or the same HP from less fuel, or ... whatever. But what do I know?

Where is the scientific evidence to prove synthetic oil does not protect against corrosion?
From what I read, fossil oil's molecule is round and it rolls off metal when it's not under pressure to be there. Hence the ads by those oil additive companies where the worse thing for engine wear is a cold start. There is no oil in the bearings, cylinder walls, valve train, etc. until the oil pump pushes the oil there.

I watch my neighbors get in their cars every morning and do a cold start and before I can count to two they have it in gear and are driving away. That causes engine wear. This is another reason engine mfg's went to lower viscosity oil. 30W takes probably 120 seconds to get all the way through the oil passages, bearing surfaces and valve train. 0 W 15 can get there in 45 seconds.

I learned synthetic oil's molecule is long and thin. It has a magnet on one end and is super slick on the other end. When it attaches to metal it doesn't come off. Think of it like hair on a cat. You can touch the cat but you can't touch it's skin.

Therefore, just as Ford learned with the 100,000 miles driven on their Lincoln in 1977 with the same Mobil 1, except the quart added with the filter change every 2,000 miles, there was no wear to be found. The engine was protected, period. The hone marks were clearly visible in the pictures of the cylinder walls, 100,000 miles and no wear on the piston rings, no wear on the bearings which still had the coating on them. And no, the seals were not blown out.

Look at Roger Penske. He raced indy cars and had Pennzoil as a sponsor. When Mobil 1 started being used by other teams, he lost constantly to a car that had Mobil 1 in it's engine. He could not use it and had to stick with Pennzoil. He finally quit and told Pennzoil to shove it. I worked at a dealership Penske bought, Roger Penske, Jr.

Pennzoil, I was told, made the change to synthetic because of Roger.

The world is all about change. We don't ride horses, drive cars with wood spoke wheels, mail our bills with the USPS, and still use old technology oils. Yes, conventional oils have come a long way and vastly improved. I think there are some great conventional oils but they don't compare to synthetic and that's my opinion based on my experiences and research.

manyboats said:

.

Tom you criticize doing things that make us feel good w/o gaining any real good as undesirable
.

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No I said just the opposite - it is OK to feel good about the oil you use.

Capthead said:

Look at Roger Penske. He raced indy cars and had Pennzoil as a sponsor. When Mobil 1 started being used by other teams, he lost constantly to a car that had Mobil 1 in it's engine. He could not use it and had to stick with Pennzoil. He finally quit and told Pennzoil to shove it. I worked at a dealership Penske bought, Roger Penske, Jr.

Pennzoil, I was told, made the change to synthetic because of Roger.

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I do not dispute any of that but are you comparing Lehmans with Cosworths? Roger also spends approximately $30,000 per car per race on tires.

Look, folks can dump sand in their crankcase if it makes them feel better as far as I care. But paying $36/gallon as opposed to $24/gallon without a corresponding $12/gallon cost benefit is silly in my eyes over the life of an engine. The average 30 year old boat that most members possess has the original engine in it. That original engine has between 3 and 4,000 mostly trouble free hours on it.(Full disclosure, mine has a fresh sub 100 hour engine but it's a gasser)

The argument is often made that synthetic can go twice as long between oil changes and that should net a $12/gallon savings over the life of an engine. Problem is there aren't too many recreational boats that have used it for 30+ years to prove that theory IMO. I've been told the number one lubrication related killer of marine engines has been going too long between oil changes.

Not too many threads in the engine section about folks re-powering their boats due to poor lubrication leads me to conclude it's a false economy. Between my friends opinions whom I trust, and folks like Sunchaser, who has forgotten more about fleet diesel preventative maintenance than I'll ever know... I'll just stick with dino.

But this is all just my opinion as to how I spend my money. Anyone else can use whatever they feel is best for their engine.

Factory Orig:

1967 Buick-Wildcat engine, domed heads, 430 cid, 360 hp, 10.5-1 CR, 121,211K miles as of today! – She put out 155 to 160 per cylinder during recent compression test. Engine base never opened or messed with.

At 75K miles (was single previously): Dual 2” exhaust w/ V-crossover equalizer pipe and Flowmaster Super 44 series mufflers (nice power sound!)

At 106K miles: Head Job, new valves, and timing gear/chain. Lifters and pushrods were in perfect condition... and, are still running perfectly strong today!

Oil Used (2.5 to 3K mile changes): Valvoline 15w-40 Premium Blue Diesel Motor Oil (dino, not syn) w/ 4 oz ZDDP zinc additive for greatly increased barrier protection on all internal parts

Reason I mention: That is same oil and additive I use in my 1985 1 Ton 4WD Chevy Silverado classic truck high performance 350/325 hp engine and the classic twin screw Tollycraft’s 350/255 hp engines.

Works very well for me regarding keeping all my flat tappets, cam lobes, bearings, and cylinder walls in excellent condition...

That’s been my experience for many years... Just Sayen!

Art said:

Factory Orig:

1967 Buick-Wildcat engine, domed heads, 430 cid, 360 hp, 10.5-1 CR, 121,211K miles as of today! – She put out 155 to 160 per cylinder during recent compression test. Engine base never opened or messed with.

At 75K miles (was single previously): Dual 2” exhaust w/ V-crossover equalizer pipe and Flowmaster Super 44 series mufflers (nice power sound!)

At 106K miles: Head Job, new valves, and timing gear/chain. Lifters and pushrods were in perfect condition... and, are still running perfectly strong today!



Oil Used (2.5 to 3K mile changes): Valvoline 15w-40 Premium Blue Diesel Motor Oil (dino, not syn) w/ 4 oz ZDDP zinc additive for greatly increased barrier protection on all internal parts

Reason I mention: That is same oil and additive I use in my 1985 1 Ton 4WD Chevy Silverado classic truck high performance 350/325 hp engine and the classic twin screw Tollycraft’s 350/255 hp engines.

Works very well for me regarding keeping all my flat tappets, cam lobes, bearings, and cylinder walls in excellent condition...

That’s been my experience for many years... Just Sayen!

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Valvoline is made from Ash base crude, look at the can, Ashland Texas. That is the best base for lubricating oil. Look at paraffin base oils like Pennzoil. Those oils are not as good, don't want to start a war but ash base is best.

I can see that anyone using Valvoline and adhering to a strict oil change interval will have outstanding results. That and letting the engine warm a bit before driving off.

BaltimoreLurker said:

I thought thinner oil was required because of the closer tolerances in modern engines due to advanced manufacturing techniques. Could still be fuel economy related I guess. Or more HP. Or the same HP from less fuel, or ... whatever. But what do I know?

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I was in the car business for 25 years and spent most of it with GM. They did a lot of research on engine wear and part of the equation was the fact people just don't warm their engines up before driving away. Which is problematic with oil flowing to all wear parts before a load is applied.

My neighbor had an 8 year old Toyota van. She started it up and had it in gear before I counted to two. Every time. Two years ago it started smoking blue smoke so bad it looked like a crop duster. Last year she bought a new Honda and it was 8 when she traded it.

Did her not warming up the engine cause her oil burning? I can't say for certain, but I highly suspect that is the case. I never speak to her.

Living in neighborhoods isn't like living in a marina.

Capthead said:

Valvoline is made from Ash base crude, look at the can, Ashland Texas. That is the best base for lubricating oil. Look at paraffin base oils like Pennzoil. Those oils are not as good, don't want to start a war but ash base is best.

I can see that anyone using Valvoline and adhering to a strict oil change interval will have outstanding results. That and letting the engine warm a bit before driving off.

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Correct Capthead, TY for posting that tidbit of important info.

Something I do before starting my classic gas engines is to crank with "starter only" until oil pressure is obtained. Then I will let them start. That is easy to do with carbs and their air-chokes. I feel (and have been told by engine rebuild experts) that doing this and also letting engine attain good amount of low rpm warm up before applying load is best for all internal parts to gain barriers. This is especially true if engine has been dormant for 24 hrs or longer since a previous full warm-up.

Art, that is the best advice ever.

You have nice autos.

If anyone here can start their engine and get all their lines off and underway before there's oil in all parts of their engine I'd be amazed. Idling out of the marina is better for it than just sitting there letting it warm up. You can argue it but for every person that doesn't think so there's one that does.

Many diesel engines would take forever to warm up past even 100 degrees just sitting in the slip at idle....I never could get my Cat 3208s past 100 until I started moving.

The average diesel pickup engine gets started and driven away at much higher than idle and survives just fine for hundreds of thousands of miles.

Capthead said:

Art, that is the best advice ever.

You have nice autos.

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Thanks, Capthead - For both compliments!

I posted that the pre start-up/starter-only oil pressure gig was a good thing a while ago on a TF thread. Some intimated they felt that I was basically nuts... that all I was accomplishing was a faster wear out of the starter! I've quickly/easily/affordably replaced a few starters in my life - instead of replacing engines! Cheep at 1/30th the price and 1/100th the hassle! LOL

Guess they simply did not understand the importance of pre-lube/barrier-placement before starting and warming up engines.

psneeld said:

If anyone here can start their engine and get all their lines off and underway before there's oil in all parts of their engine I'd be amazed. Idling out of the marina is better for it than just sitting there letting it warm up.

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I couldn't agree more!

I have never seen a boater do that. NEVER!!